Those whom the Lord Jesus will judge

[Katy-follower]

Context.


Romans 8:1-11:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But you (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"


There's a promise (assurance) here. It says "if you have the Spirit". It doesn't say "if you have the Spirit + do x,y,z"


From my post here -->http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems-64.html#post3081389

 

[Grace777x70]

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

 

[LoveGodForever]

YOU should read what the fruits of the Holy Spirit are.

Hi PennEd, nice to meet you here. I love those verses....

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envying’s, murders, drunkenness, revelling, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. (Gal 5:13-26)

Very interesting bible verses...

So how do we know if we are walking in the spirit and we really do have love, joy, peace long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance?

* You will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like - Gal 5:19-21)

This is the same reason why Jesus tells us………

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman."

"Every branch in me that bears not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same bringes forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."

"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples."

"As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love."

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:1-10)

and again...............

"Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit."
"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

"Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

"Not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven."

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

"Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."

"And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matt 7:17-27)

It is vital to understand that the works do not produce fruit. It is the fruit that produces works.

Those that live in the dark, and cannot comprehend the light, and rely on THEIR works for Salvation, always get those 2 backwards.

I think very few would disagree with your statement above about fruit and works and it’s only God that can do that work in us as we have faith in His Word as we are all sinners in need of God's salvation. However, those that live in the Dark are clearly described in God’s Word…..

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19).

Keeping in line with the Op's topic what is wrong about talking about the conditions on salvation from God's Word and being ready for the Lord coming?

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (Jam 1:22).
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? " (2Cor 13:5)

God Bless you

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a great article on John 15 and unfruitful branches based on the finished work of Christ. I like using this site from time to time because it has at the bottom a place where others can ask questions. I sometimes learn more in these questions.

What Happens to Unfruitful Branches?

Jesus said, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments” (Jn 14:15, NASB).


In the hands of a religious person this becomes a conditional statement: You have to keep the commands of Jesus to prove your love. The problem with that, however, is the commands of Jesus are impossible to keep.

As we saw in our last post, Jesus said anyone who keeps His commands, “will do what I have been doing and even greater things.”

Well Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead. Can you? On your own it’s impossible, but that’s okay because you know what? Jesus has a plan. In the very next verse He begins to tell us what it is:

I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, who will stay with you forever. (Jn 14:16)

Who is the Helper? He’s the Holy Spirit, the One who empowers us to show and tell the gospel of the kingdom (Rms 15:19). (Note that the Holy Spirit doesn’t come and go. Jesus said He will “be with you forever”!) Jesus then tells the disciples that on the day that the Holy Spirit is given,

… you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. (Jn. 14:20

This is the most awesome, incredible thing in the world! This is the mystery that Paul sought to make known to the Gentiles – Christ is in you! And you’re in Him! Do you need a picture to help you see this? Then look at the picture above.

Jesus said He is the true vine and we are the branches. Look at the picture and draw a mental circle around the vine. Do you see any branches that are not part of the vine?

The vine is bigger than any branch but there’s no branch that is not also vine. Touch any branch and you are touching the vine.

This is how Hudson Taylor describes it:

Here, I feel, is the secret: not asking how I am to get sap out of the Vine into myself, but remembering that Jesus is the Vine – the root, stem, branches, twigs, leaves, flowers, fruit all indeed… I have not got to make myself a branch. The Lord Jesus tells me I am a branch. I am part of him and I have just to believe it and act upon it. (Quoted in The Normal Christian Life, pp.56-7)

Now Jesus knows that you can’t bear fruit – “no branch can bear fruit by itself” (Jn 15:4) – but He plans to bear His fruit through us. What’s our part in this? He wants us to abide in Him, which means to dwell or stay put.

It means don’t run off and try to do your own thing in your own strength. What’s His part? He plans to live His life through us and go on healing the sick and delivering the oppressed and doing all the other heaven-on-earth things He did when He was here in the flesh (Mk 16:17-18).

Are you a branch with no fruit?

What happens to unfruitful branches? Jesus said the branches that don’t bear fruit are “lifted up” (Jn 15:2). They are not cut off – that is a bad translation that would’ve made no sense to a Mediterranean listener!

A viticulturalist would never throw away a branch for that would be like amputating part of the vine. (If you’re thinking of suckers, see my note in the comments below.) Unfruitful branches are lifted out of the dirt and re-dressed so they can be nourished by the sun.

Sticking with that metaphor, the reason why some Christians are barren is that they’re facedown in the dirt and not looking at the Son. They’re busy, distracted, stressed, and have wandered from their protos agape, their primary love.

When believers lose sight of Christ’s love they tend to become religious, just like the Ephesians. The next thing you know, they’re thinking that they have do stuff like obey His commandments to prove their love or earn His.

What is the remedy for unfruitful branches? God is. He is the Gardener who does the lifting up. He is not there to slash and burn but to prune and lift. As you begin to bear fruit it will be for His glory, not yours.

If you’ve been distracted doing the dead works of religion, just stop and come back to your first love which is His love. His love is like food for us.

We are energized by it. I might tell myself that I am writing these posts because of my love for Him, but in truth, it’s His love for me that compels me to tell others the good news. I would not love Him except that He has first loved me (1 Jn 4:19).

God believes in you!

When Jesus said, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments,” He was not making a threat but a promise! He was saying, “If you love me you will do the works and greater works that I have done because I’m the one who’s going to do them through you. Trust me! Believe in me! Abide in me!”

Why does Jesus say we will do greater works? Because 2000 years ago there was only one Christ, but now there are millions of Little Christs. Back then He was just a tender shoot (Is 53:2), but now He’s a mighty vine with branches reaching into every place. Back then God lived in just one man, but now He lives in millions of men, women and children all around the world and He wants out!

What are the greater works? They are the works of Jesus done millions of times over, every day, all over the world by ordinary branches like you and me.

Aren’t you amazed that God operates this way – through people? It’s like God is saying, “I believe in you. I have confidence that you will come to rest in my love and allow me to reveal myself to you and through you.”

Carnal religion says it’s all about you and your faith so you’d better perform, but the gospel of grace declares it’s about Him and His faith so rest! Paul understood this which is why he said, “the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me” (Gal 2:20).

Branches can not bear fruit but vines can and do so naturally, without any effort. As a branch you carry the nature of the True Vine in you and He will bear His fruit through you. He promised! Do you believe Him?

At this point you probably want me to tell you what to do. “What’s the takeaway? What must I do?” We Christians are so hung up on working for God that we don’t know what to do with Jesus when He says, “just abide.”

Okay, here’s something you can do. Write this down. The next time you’re faced with a problem or trial, take a moment to let Jesus love on you. Allow the Lifter of your head to turn your gaze from the dirt back to Himself and then bask in His love.

He is already shining on you. He has already been gracious to you and blessed you and given you His peace. Receive it!

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. (Jn 15:9)

Here is the link for anyone interested in looking at the questions at the bottom.

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/06/05/what-happens-to-unfruitful-branches/

 

[LoveGodForever]

Here is a great article on John 15 and unfruitful branches based on the finished work of Christ. I like using this site from time to time because it has at the bottom a place where others can ask questions. I sometimes learn more in these questions.

Hi Grace777,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts (or someone website interpretation of the Bible). I believe however we are better off studying GOd's Word for yourself asking Jesus to send us the promise of the Holy Spirit to teach us His Words (John 14:26, 16:13). I only left in the parts I did not agree with from the websites discourse below. Comments in Red.

What Happens to Unfruitful Branches?

Jesus said, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments” (Jn 14:15, NASB).


In the hands of a religious person this becomes a conditional statement: You have to keep the commands of Jesus to prove your love. The problem with that, however, is the commands of Jesus are impossible to keep.

The above is clearly a false interpretation of God’s Word. John 14:15 is a conditional statement in the hands of anyone. It is the Word of God and that is what the Word of God says IF you love me, you will keep my commandments (John 14:15 NASB). It is a promise of God to the repentant believer that God will Work in you to change your heart so that the believer can walk in God’s ways.

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.” (1Pet 1:23)
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1John 3:9)

As we saw in our last post, Jesus said anyone who keeps His commands, “will do what I have been doing and even greater things.” Well Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead. Can you? On your own it’s impossible, but that’s okay because you know what? Jesus has a plan. In the very next verse He begins to tell us what it is: I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, who will stay with you forever. (Jn 14:16)

Who is the Helper? He’s the Holy Spirit, the One who empowers us to show and tell the gospel of the kingdom (Rms 15:19). (Note that the Holy Spirit doesn’t come and go. Jesus said He will “be with you forever”!) Jesus then tells the disciples that on the day that the Holy Spirit is given,… you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. (Jn. 14:20)

The Word of God clearly says that the Holy Spirit is only given to those that obey God and if we grieve God’s Spirit he will leave us....


“And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.” (Act 5:32), “Quench not the Spirit.” (1Th 5:19) “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb 10:29)
It is clear that God only gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey Him. It is possible to quench (put out or make the Holy Spirit leave you) and grieve the spirit.

Are you a branch with no fruit?

What happens to unfruitful branches? Jesus said the branches that don’t bear fruit are “lifted up” (Jn 15:2). They are not cut off – that is a bad translation that would’ve made no sense to a Mediterranean listener!

A viticulturalist would never throw away a branch for that would be like amputating part of the vine. (If you’re thinking of suckers, see my note in the comments below.) Unfruitful branches are lifted out of the dirt and re-dressed so they can be nourished by the sun.


The above interpretation that is not supported in scripture

Sticking with that metaphor, the reason why some Christians are barren is that they’re facedown in the dirt and not looking at the Son. They’re busy, distracted, stressed, and have wandered from their protos agape, their primary love.

When believers lose sight of Christ’s love they tend to become religious, just like the Ephesians. The next thing you know, they’re thinking that they have do stuff like obey His commandments to prove their love or earn His.


The Word of God is clear that we are all sinners in need of our wonderful saviour Jesus! Jesus says without Jesus we can do nothing! (John 15:5). But as we have faith in God’s Word “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” (Phil 4:13).

What is the remedy for unfruitful branches? God is. He is the Gardener who does the lifting up. He is not there to slash and burn but to prune and lift. As you begin to bear fruit it will be for His glory, not yours.


God’s Word is being thrown away with the statements above. God’s Word clearly says…

“Every branch in me that bears not fruit he taketh away.” (John 15:2), If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6)
“Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.”
“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”
“Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

“Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matt 7:17-20)

Carnal religion says it’s all about you and your faith so you’d better perform, but the gospel of grace declares it’s about Him and His faith so rest! Paul understood this which is why he said, “the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me” (Gal 2:20).

Branches can not bear fruit but vines can and do so naturally, without any effort. As a branch you carry the nature of the True Vine in you and He will bear His fruit through you. He promised! Do you believe Him?

At this point you probably want me to tell you what to do. “What’s the takeaway? What must I do?” We Christians are so hung up on working for God that we don’t know what to do with Jesus when He says, “just abide.”

Okay, here’s something you can do. Write this down. The next time you’re faced with a problem or trial, take a moment to let Jesus love on you. Allow the Lifter of your head to turn your gaze from the dirt back to Himself and then bask in His love.

He is already shining on you. He has already been gracious to you and blessed you and given you His peace. Receive it!

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. (John 15:9)

Other parts of the discourse was fine as it points to the only way we can follow Jesus by abiding in Him and allowing Him to Work in us. The missing scriptures that are discarded in this whole discourse however are important because it is how we determine if we are really following Jesus or not. It’s ok to say to everyone sit back and do nothing and let God do it all for you. But people fail to realize we have a part to play as well and that is letting God do His work in us. It is only as we continue in God's Word, having faith in His Word and acting on this faith that God work’s with us and in us. We need to put our feet in the Jordan to watch the waters part. God’s Word says it best …….


“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believes that there is one God; thou does well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:14-20)
The whole point of this post and many of the other posts here in this thread is that it is not about works or faith alone. It is about a working faith and knowing if we are really following Jesus or not. Wherefore Jesus says… by their fruits you shall know them. This is for anyone claiming to follow Jesus to examine ourselves to see if we really are following Him and if we cannot see the fruits of righteousness in our lives to seek Jesus so that we can abide in Him and allow Him to work in us to will and to do of His own Good pleasure, who is the saviour of sinners of whom I am chief. Amen.

God Bless you all.

God bless everyone see comments in Red above

 

[PennEd]

Hi PennEd, nice to meet you here. I love those verses....

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envying’s, murders, drunkenness, revelling, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. (Gal 5:13-26)

Very interesting bible verses...

So how do we know if we are walking in the spirit and we really do have love, joy, peace long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance?

* You will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like - Gal 5:19-21)

This is the same reason why Jesus tells us………

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman."

"Every branch in me that bears not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same bringes forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."

"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples."

"As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love."

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:1-10)

and again...............

"Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit."
"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

"Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

"Not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven."

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

"Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."

"And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matt 7:17-27)



I think very few would disagree with your statement above about fruit and works and it’s only God that can do that work in us as we have faith in His Word as we are all sinners in need of God's salvation. However, those that live in the Dark are clearly described in God’s Word…..

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19).

Keeping in line with the Op's topic what is wrong about talking about the conditions on salvation from God's Word and being ready for the Lord coming?

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (Jam 1:22).
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? " (2Cor 13:5)

God Bless you

Thank you for the greeting. Nice to meet you as well.

This is a fair point you make about this verse: “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19).

HOWEVER... Who is the arbiter of what is evil?

[h=3]I Never Knew You[/h][FONT=&quot]21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Here we have the Lord describing one type of evil being those who depend on THEIR work for salvation.

We cannot ascribe our human logic to God's perfection, and decide what is and isn't evil. We must depend on Christ ALONE. Who tells us to spread His Gospel, Love everyone, and pray.

Blessings to you !![/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

There are different mindsets that influence us as we read the scriptures. The lose your salvation false doctrine looks at them through the lens of "performance based righteousness" ( which is what the law was based on - personal performance ) which is the opposite of the gospel of the grace of God.

All Christians agree what the true Christian life looks like when Christ is manifesting the fruit of His life in us. The dis-connect comes when people talk about "how is this done".

Works-based belief systems use the Old Covenant mindset to try to effect transformation in Christians. Grace-based belief relies totally on the life and work of Christ in them to transform them by His love and grace towards us.

A very big factor in looking at scripture is the "lens" you use to view the scripture.

In the Old Covenant " you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

New Covenant = Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Old Covenant mindset = conditional on the person "doing"..

So they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ.

They would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Then there is more..lol..there seems to be more sometimes eh?..just what are His commandments anyway?..Be perfect as My Father in heaven is perfect?...can we possibly do that?..of course not..that is Moses 2.0

Ahhh..found His commandments in 1 John 3.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.


...the "lens" that we view scriptures greatly affects us. We try to mix the Old Covenant ( before the cross and resurrection ) with the New Covenant and we get a religious mess.

Religious traditions of men, philosophies of men, ..what we were told all our lives in church or in the world etc. ..all influence how we view scripture. Sometimes some of our "sacred cows" can get sacrificed and it's painful.

Colossians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because Christ is in us and because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.

We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.

 

[Grace777x70]

An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

His faith was completed as a result of already being declared righteous by God. Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested.

There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true. There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness.

Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.

Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.

We will see corresponding action or works that glorify God.

Our loving Father will never send His beloved children to hell like some people try to teach and thus distort the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Thank you for the greeting. Nice to meet you as well.

This is a fair point you make about this verse: “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, becausetheir deeds were evil.” (John 3:19).

HOWEVER... Who is the arbiter of what is evil?

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Here we have the Lord describing one type of evil being those who depend on THEIR work for salvation.

We cannot ascribe our human logic to God's perfection, and decide what is and isn't evil. We must depend on Christ ALONE. Who tells us to spread His Gospel, Love everyone, and pray.

Blessings to you !!

Hi PennEd,

Thanks for your message. Where are you quoting from? The verses you quote do not follow John 3:19. However I do know them and they are applicable. I take the Word of God as it says however...

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."(John 3:20)

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:21)

This applies to everyone,weather its someone relying on their own works for salvation or someone professing to follow Jesus in words only. All classes do not come to the light because their deeds were evil. I will have to sign off now nice to chat with you but very late my end

God bless you.

 

[Grace777x70]

In John 15 Jesus is simply saying "Without Me you can do nothing"...so remain/abide in Him and all that He has already done for us as He is our life.

Abiding in Him means to stand in what He has done and who He is because we are one with Him.

It is NOT a work that one does. This is called works-righteousness.

He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. We are one with Him now in our inner man of the heart created in righteousness and holiness.

1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


Sin no more separates the believer in Christ from Him then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

Sin is stupid and destructive and can shorten our lives here on earth and destroys our witness with people but it does not separate us from God because we are "in Christ". It does however in our own minds affect how we view God but not how God views us.

This is NOT an endorsement to sin all you want because a true believer will always show some form of transformation in his life.

This transformation will vary between individuals but as we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord - we will manifest more of His life in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see our loving Father's love and grace towards them that is in Christ.

The gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to the religious mindset.

How we live here while on this earth affects our quality of life. Either live in grace by relying on Christ and His life or in the flesh.

I say that we teach the grace of Christ as it is this very thing that instructs how to live godly in this present world . Titus 2:11

Romans 8:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[Stephen63]

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.

How can one possibly believe a person that makes unsubstantiated claims & tell lies?

Then, when pulled on the carpet, cry slander & malice?

Such people can't be trusted.

 

[Grace777x70]

How many times did Abraham "offer up Isaac" on the altar? How many times did Rahab "receive the spies send them out another way?"

James 2:21-26 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22 [/SUP] You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

[SUP]26 [/SUP] For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[Meggido]

Here is a great article on John 15 and unfruitful branches based on the finished work of Christ. I like using this site from time to time because it has at the bottom a place where others can ask questions. I sometimes learn more in these questions.

What Happens to Unfruitful Branches?

Jesus said, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments” (Jn 14:15, NASB).


In the hands of a religious person this becomes a conditional statement: You have to keep the commands of Jesus to prove your love. The problem with that, however, is the commands of Jesus are impossible to keep.

As we saw in our last post, Jesus said anyone who keeps His commands, “will do what I have been doing and even greater things.”

Well Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead. Can you? On your own it’s impossible, but that’s okay because you know what? Jesus has a plan. In the very next verse He begins to tell us what it is:

I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, who will stay with you forever. (Jn 14:16)

Who is the Helper? He’s the Holy Spirit, the One who empowers us to show and tell the gospel of the kingdom (Rms 15:19). (Note that the Holy Spirit doesn’t come and go. Jesus said He will “be with you forever”!) Jesus then tells the disciples that on the day that the Holy Spirit is given,

… you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. (Jn. 14:20

This is the most awesome, incredible thing in the world! This is the mystery that Paul sought to make known to the Gentiles – Christ is in you! And you’re in Him! Do you need a picture to help you see this? Then look at the picture above.

Jesus said He is the true vine and we are the branches. Look at the picture and draw a mental circle around the vine. Do you see any branches that are not part of the vine?

The vine is bigger than any branch but there’s no branch that is not also vine. Touch any branch and you are touching the vine.

This is how Hudson Taylor describes it:

Here, I feel, is the secret: not asking how I am to get sap out of the Vine into myself, but remembering that Jesus is the Vine – the root, stem, branches, twigs, leaves, flowers, fruit all indeed… I have not got to make myself a branch. The Lord Jesus tells me I am a branch. I am part of him and I have just to believe it and act upon it. (Quoted in The Normal Christian Life, pp.56-7)

Now Jesus knows that you can’t bear fruit – “no branch can bear fruit by itself” (Jn 15:4) – but He plans to bear His fruit through us. What’s our part in this? He wants us to abide in Him, which means to dwell or stay put.

It means don’t run off and try to do your own thing in your own strength. What’s His part? He plans to live His life through us and go on healing the sick and delivering the oppressed and doing all the other heaven-on-earth things He did when He was here in the flesh (Mk 16:17-18).

Are you a branch with no fruit?

What happens to unfruitful branches? Jesus said the branches that don’t bear fruit are “lifted up” (Jn 15:2). They are not cut off – that is a bad translation that would’ve made no sense to a Mediterranean listener!

A viticulturalist would never throw away a branch for that would be like amputating part of the vine. (If you’re thinking of suckers, see my note in the comments below.) Unfruitful branches are lifted out of the dirt and re-dressed so they can be nourished by the sun.

Sticking with that metaphor, the reason why some Christians are barren is that they’re facedown in the dirt and not looking at the Son. They’re busy, distracted, stressed, and have wandered from their protos agape, their primary love.

When believers lose sight of Christ’s love they tend to become religious, just like the Ephesians. The next thing you know, they’re thinking that they have do stuff like obey His commandments to prove their love or earn His.

What is the remedy for unfruitful branches? God is. He is the Gardener who does the lifting up. He is not there to slash and burn but to prune and lift. As you begin to bear fruit it will be for His glory, not yours.

If you’ve been distracted doing the dead works of religion, just stop and come back to your first love which is His love. His love is like food for us.

We are energized by it. I might tell myself that I am writing these posts because of my love for Him, but in truth, it’s His love for me that compels me to tell others the good news. I would not love Him except that He has first loved me (1 Jn 4:19).

God believes in you!

When Jesus said, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments,” He was not making a threat but a promise! He was saying, “If you love me you will do the works and greater works that I have done because I’m the one who’s going to do them through you. Trust me! Believe in me! Abide in me!”

Why does Jesus say we will do greater works? Because 2000 years ago there was only one Christ, but now there are millions of Little Christs. Back then He was just a tender shoot (Is 53:2), but now He’s a mighty vine with branches reaching into every place. Back then God lived in just one man, but now He lives in millions of men, women and children all around the world and He wants out!

What are the greater works? They are the works of Jesus done millions of times over, every day, all over the world by ordinary branches like you and me.

Aren’t you amazed that God operates this way – through people? It’s like God is saying, “I believe in you. I have confidence that you will come to rest in my love and allow me to reveal myself to you and through you.”

Carnal religion says it’s all about you and your faith so you’d better perform, but the gospel of grace declares it’s about Him and His faith so rest! Paul understood this which is why he said, “the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me” (Gal 2:20).

Branches can not bear fruit but vines can and do so naturally, without any effort. As a branch you carry the nature of the True Vine in you and He will bear His fruit through you. He promised! Do you believe Him?

At this point you probably want me to tell you what to do. “What’s the takeaway? What must I do?” We Christians are so hung up on working for God that we don’t know what to do with Jesus when He says, “just abide.”

Okay, here’s something you can do. Write this down. The next time you’re faced with a problem or trial, take a moment to let Jesus love on you. Allow the Lifter of your head to turn your gaze from the dirt back to Himself and then bask in His love.

He is already shining on you. He has already been gracious to you and blessed you and given you His peace. Receive it!

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. (Jn 15:9)

Here is the link for anyone interested in looking at the questions at the bottom.

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/06/05/what-happens-to-unfruitful-branches/

Jesus said something very profound in John 12.24 about bearing fruit:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

The problem today is the church and many self professing "Christians" refuse to die. You cannot bear fruit unless you die to self and the works of the flesh. This is not fruit inspection, this is not works based or conditional salvation, this is simple Bible 101.If you are one with Christ you will bear fruit and to bear fruit you must die to yourself, if you do not bear fruit you will be cut off from the vine.

 

[Stephen63]

How many times did Abraham "offer up Isaac" on the altar? How many times did Rahab "receive the spies send them out another way?"

James 2:21-26 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22 [/SUP] You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

[SUP]26 [/SUP] For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Not the point.

A lie by any other name is still a lie.

These weren't "one time events to prove faith forever" kind of things.

As the lie is, so is the one telling it.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus said something very profound in John 12.24 about bearing fruit:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

The problem today is the church and many self professing "Christians" refuse to die. You cannot bear fruit unless you die to self and the works of the flesh. This is not fruit inspection, this is not works based or conditional salvation, this is simple Bible 101.If you are one with Christ you will bear fruit and to bear fruit you must die to yourself, if you do not bear fruit you will be cut off from the vine.

I agree with the seed of wheat dying - unless it does - it remains alone. Great verse!

Jesus is referring to Himself and those that are in Him because they too have died with Him. We don't "die to ourselves" - that is the works-based false doctrine of religion.

The reason why Christians have no understanding of the gospel and that they too have died with Christ on the cross is because a watered down version has been preached at them and there are no nutrients of His life being feed to the people.

They have substituted the grace of God for a behavior modification program which actually denies the very grace of God needed to bring about outwardly the transformation that is in us in our new creation in Christ.

A seed once it has been planted does not move from it's location. Jesus was that seed and when He died - we too died with Him and rose to newness of life - forever planted in Him when we receive Christ.

We are not to be moved from our foundation and planting in Him after we receive Christ. We are not to be moved from our foundation in Him and complete reliance on Him for without Him we can do nothing. We can only grow in the foundation that we are in fact in Him.

Colossians 2:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.


The other aspect to John 15 is that all the world was included in Christ's death on the cross. People need to remain in Christ in order to receive the forgiveness of sins and be in one spirit with Him 1 Cor. 6:17.

We do that when we hear the message of Christ and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. Rom. 5:17

We can see this in the picture of the 2 thieves that were "crucified with Him". One believed - the other didn't. One remained in Christ - the other didn't.

 

[Meggido]

My experience is that ultimately those who believe in conditional salvation become fruit inspectors which makes them seem very self-righteous.

If he is a brother in Christ then God in His Grace will deal with Him as He promised He would.

If He is not a brother then your whole point about false grace is moot.

Either way we should being praying for this man.

Perry noble was fired, for what his elders described, as a very serious alcohol abuse problem on July 1, 2016. Perry himself admitted to being a very hard core Alcoholic.

Noble claims he went through a 30 day rehab and worked with a Psychologist and ordained Pastor for returning to ministry ASAP. He was allowed to preach at Steven Furtick's Elevation Church on 2/4/17.

This is as bad as Jimmy Swaggerts lack of proper restoration.

And for all 3 of these guys its not about preaching the Gospel, or fruit bearing, it is about the MONEY!

Of the 3 mentioned,only Swaggart is Pentecostal, Furtick and Noble are both Southern Baptists.

Fruit bearing and inspection was promoted by Jesus himself. Many refuse to believe that, but Jesus talked more about bearing fruit and being known by your fruit more than anything.

 

[Meggido]

This is impossible to happen brother. All who died with Christ on the cross have been raised up in His resurrection. They just haven't received the revelation of it yet.

They have been preached at with a "behavior modification" program instead of the gospel of the grace of God and thus do not have their minds renewed to the truth yet of what really happened when they received Christ.

There is no such thing as dying to yourself after being in Christ and Christ being in us. The truth is - we have already died. This is not a work we produce. This is received by grace through faith.

Colossians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ is vital for proper growing up in Him or else we create a works-based doctrine that is really just being fueled by the self-effort of the flesh.

You are missing the point Bruce, or looking right past it. You cannot be one with Christ as you are saying and continue in any form of sexual sin. You cannot be one with Christ and drink/eat to excess to cope with the world, you cannot be one with Christ and drug yourself into bliss, you cannot be one with Christ and continue to gossip spread strife and discord and continue manifesting works of the flesh.

Grace does not give one a pass to continue sinning and an excuse for not bearing fruit. Grace should empower you to stop these things and renew your mind to the word. This foolishness that fruit bearing is not really what the Bible says it is, is an excuse for people too lazy to do the things required to be one with Christ.

 

[Meggido]

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

I do not condemn others that struggle with booze, drugs, sexual addictions, eating disorders, slanderers, murders , and works of the flesh. I do not think I am better than they are, not=r do I base lack of fruit on if a person is truly saved. I try to show them that what the Bible says about renewing their minds and overcoming now is truth and they too can overcome as others before them have. [1 Cor 10.13]

 

[Rockrz]

No, that's a confirmation. Not a condition

You are taking away from what God says in His Word which is sinful... you should repent.

Other scriptures back up Romans 8:1 and the bottom line is... those that walk after the flesh have made themselves one with sin and sin in the flesh has been condemned mentioned in Romans 8:3... which does not mean just because someone gets born again it's no longer possible for them to backslide and walk after the flesh.

There's a promise (assurance) here. It says "if you have the Spirit". It doesn't say "if you have the Spirit + do x,y,z"

In James the Lord says faith without works is dead... o if one has the Spirit, they will do good works unto the Lord and by this we know they have the Holy Spirit cause the Holy Spirit always leads people to walk in agreement with the Lord and that always results in Good works.

It's proof of actually being led by the Holy Spirit.

Many of you false grace people claim to have the Spirit and yet many of you guys are involved in sinful lifestyles... things God identified in His Word as being sinful.... things God identifies in His Word as being works of the flesh, and this is how we know many of you false grace people are following another jesus and are teaching another gospel.

It's really quite simple and God warns us about these false teachings and false teachers that would be prevelant in the end times so this is all par for course.

Just don't get yer panties all bunched up with others don't agree with your false grace gospel that teaches grace differently than ho God teaches grace in His Word.

The problem today is the church and many self professing "Christians" refuse to die. You cannot bear fruit unless you die to self and the works of the flesh. This is not fruit inspection, this is not works based or conditional salvation, this is simple Bible 101.If you are one with Christ you will bear fruit and to bear fruit you must die to yourself, if you do not bear fruit you will be cut off from the vine.

This is why many false grace teaches claim that what Jesus taught before the Cross does not apply to Christians today... cause it does not fit in to their seeker sensitive narrative

Grace does not give one a pass to continue sinning and an excuse for not bearing fruit. Grace should empower you to stop these things and renew your mind to the word.

God's grace does not save us IN our sin... it saved us OUT of our sin as in... like Jesus told the woman: "go and sin no more" as in do not willingly and knowingly walk in sin.

If you teach people that all future sin has already been forgiven... then most people that hear that think that it's OK to sin since it's already forgiven, so they get their crack pipe out... or whatever it was they were into that is sinful.