Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

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Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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So you admit that you teach we are saved through faith + obedience/works? Believing = salvation (Luke 8:12; John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:33-28; 4:5 etc..) and genuine believing results in producing works of obedience. Believers produce works of obedience BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved. You seem to have this backwards.
Simple:

James 2v [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2v [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. <justification, you would agree, is the first instance>
James 2v [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. <how can you tell me you are saved by faith, if the bible says that faith without works is dead. So you have to go back to verse 22>.

:)
 
Nov 22, 2015
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True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action.
Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.

Abraham was declared righteous by God 5 years before he offered up Isaac
because Abraham believed God.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.


We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith
with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "
THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP]
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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the Bible interprets itself by the Love of Jesus Christ, to those who can hear and see...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Just as I thought. You teach salvation by works and misinterpret James 2:14-24 (just as Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites and other works-salvationists do as well). :(

James 2v [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
In James 2:22, faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works many years after Abraham believed God and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James 2v [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. <justification, you would agree, is the first instance>
James 2:24 has to be one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. In the first place, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

*In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim/where is the fruit?). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - *James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 12:37 - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

Matthew 11:19 - "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Please pay close attention - The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

James 2v [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. <how can you tell me you are saved by faith, if the bible says that faith without works is dead. So you have to go back to verse 22>.
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works. *Works salvationists have this backwards.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and was "shown to be righteous" in Genesis 22. :)
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
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No, It is not conditional.

If it was conditional based on something we could do. The cross is meaningless and Christ died in vein.
Conditions of salvation.

Believe on Messiah until his return
( believe in his testimony)
Be lead to Elohim by Yeshua to do the good works of faith.
Walk in the faith of Messiah as your way of life always looking forward to the promised redemption to come.

YHWH put it this way, today I put a blessing and life in front of you and curses and death. Choose life.
 

Katy-follower

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Jun 25, 2011
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Romans 8v4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Don't forget the verses that come before and after that. Context...

Romans 8:1-11: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"


The verses repeat themselves a lot, revealing more information each time as confirmation, which ties everything together. It even confirms the meaning of "to be IN Christ" but if you don't read all the verses then you miss it.

Looking closely it actually says "those who are IN Christ Jesus (who do not walk according to the flesh)" - this is confirmation that those who do not walk according to the flesh are those who are IN Christ. It does not imply that the condemnation is conditional based on obedience, aka not walking in the flesh. So it is not a condition, but rather a confirmation.

It goes on to say "But YOU" (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Confirmation again.


Put simply....
No condemnation to those IN Christ Jesus
Those IN Christ are those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (believers)
Those in Christ (with the HS) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (believers)
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in "US" "WHO" walk according to the Spirit (believers) - see above points
Those without the Spirit are not His and they live in the flesh (non believers)

And can't forget to mention the promise (assurance). Actually this is another clear evidence: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" - it says "If the Spirit dwells in you", it doesn't say "If you have the Spirit + do x,y,z" :)
 

Katy-follower

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Jun 25, 2011
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Conditional security is easy to understand. Example, you have conditional security while watching the bears at the zoo, you are totally secure as long as you do not get in the cage with the bears. You are secure on the train as long as you don't try to jump out while the train is moving. Lets go on, Adam and Eve were secure as long as they did not eat the forbidden fruit. The people of Israel were secure as long as they believed God. Actually the whole story of God and man is God saying you are secure IF you do this or do not do that...all security in this life is conditional. If salvation was unconditional, then the whole world would have been saved immediately after Jesus death on the cross.
So where is the scripture that says "I give them eternal life and then take it away" ? Then surely it would not actually be eternal as He has promised us in the scriptures?

Conditional security is no security at all. How is this good news? This sounds more like religious teachings that just hold people in bondage. Sadly they are deceived into believing they must maintain salvation in order to keep it.


The scriptures say that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Those who do not believe are condemned already. Therefore not all will be saved, only those who believe.

John 3:16-21: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


Hebrews 10:11-18: And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin"
 
W

willybob

Guest
actually Hebrews 6:4-6 IS as it seems. .a child could understand it. A very simple reading to those of the Spirit, but a hard saying to those of the lusts of the flesh.
 

Katy-follower

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Jun 25, 2011
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If we repent and resolve the sin, when and if it occurs, there is no condemnation, we
are clean, pure and Holy

Are you suggesting that if a child of God (who is born of the Spirit) has a wrongful thought and then dies in a car crash before they repent of said sin, that this person goes to hell?!
 

Katy-follower

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Jun 25, 2011
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1 Corinthians 6
[SUP]8 [/SUP]No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[SUP][a][/SUP] nor sodomites, [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

So there is the context linking the two letters.
The keyword to take note of in that scripture is "unrighteous" - the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom. These are non believers.

You need to look at the next verse also....

Verse 11: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God"
 
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This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!
And yet... the New Testament has numerous warnings against falling away.

If yiour statement is tue then God must be stoopid!

The problem is not with the Lord or His plan of salvation... it is with the free will of men who can and sometimes do turn away from the Lord.

Jesus said workers of iniquity shall not enter in to the Kingdom of God.



only those who do the will of GOD will inherit his kingdom.
Exactly... today's false grace teachers are money hungry, attention seeking hucksters out to tickle ears that wanna be tickled.


Do you believe that each time you fall away you become un-born (spiritually)? And that you are born again each and every time you follow instruction in 1 John 1:9?
No, you don't slip on a banana peel and end up in hell... but in Romans 8 the Lord is very clear in telling us if we live after the flesh we shall die.

Today we have people that claim to be Christians (go to church, praise the Lord, give money, help the poor, etc, etc) who live after the flesh as though they are of the world and not of God.

If this is one's lifestyle, they do going to spend eternity with the Lord.

That was written to Christians at Rome and as such is applicably to Christians today since God told Paul to write it.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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And yet... the New Testament has numerous warnings against falling away
Several already covered this in the thread. Those who fall away are confirmed in the scriptures to be those who "do not have the Spirit," as stated in Jude 1. 1 John 2:18-23 also refers to these apostates that fall away, calling them antichrists who came out from among us because they were not of us, otherwise they would've stayed with us. The tares coming out from among the wheat. Posts #1171 and #1176


Jesus said workers of iniquity shall not enter in to the Kingdom of God
Yes, but those workers of iniquity are identified by Jesus when He says on judgment day "I never knew you" (they were never saved). These people will stand there boasting about all the things they did for Him. They never believed in the finished work of Christ, they always trusted in their own works, trying to add something which cannot be added. In doing this they deny Christ and are called workers of iniquity.


Romans 8 the Lord is very clear in telling us if we live after the flesh we shall die
Link --> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems-64.html#post3081389
 
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2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The Bible states that those that name the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity,and it was not the works that Jesus was addressing concerning the those that said,Lord,Lord,but could not dwell with Jesus,but it was because they were workers of iniquity,not doing the will of the Father.

They have a form of godliness,which is what the people said to Jesus,we did works for the kingdom,but they denied the power thereof,they would not allow the Spirit to lead them,and they were ever learning,and never coming to the truth that they have to depart from sin,and do not hold unto sin,to be right with God.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Many are called but few are chosen,and nobody calls Jesus,Lord,except by the Holy Ghost,which there is many people that claim Jesus as Lord,but the ones that could not dwell with Jesus were not chosen,and Jesus said it was because they were workers of iniquity,they would not abstain from sin,believing they were alright with God despite hanging unto sin.

You will know them by their fruits,and their lifestyle.

It is plain as day that if we live for Christ,we have to abstain from sin,and not hold unto it,and hate sin,and it is not that we cannot abstain from sin,but we want to sin,for we are not forced to sin,and we can choose the good,so how do you have an excuse.

There is a difference between the people that claim Jesus as Lord,that have the Spirit,and do not have the Spirit,for those that have the Spirit,know that sin is wrong,and it affects their relationship with God,and they abstain from sin by the Spirit,not wanting sin,and hating sin,and if they do sin,they get rid of it,and continue on in the Spirit.

Those that did not receive the Spirit will believe that they cannot abstain from sin,and believe that sin does not affect their relationship with God,so they will hold unto sin thinking they are alright,but then they are in the position of workers of iniquity,and not in the truth that they have to abstain from sin.

There are millions of people like this that hold unto sin,live worldly,loving things in the world,and believing the prosperity Gospel that neglects the poor and needy,and believe they are right with God despite their outlook on Christianity.

If we are led of the Spirit we are not under the law,because we do not want sin,and hate sin,and we show the fruits of the Spirit,in which there are no ways of the flesh there,for it states they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts,there is no ways of the flesh there,so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

Those that hold unto sin are under the law.

The point of Jesus shedding His blood is so our sins could be washed away,and we could receive the Spirit,so we could abstain from sin,and be right with God,for it is our sins that separate us from God.

But many people that claim Jesus as Lord do not get this,but remain fleshy and think they are alright,because they love some ways of the flesh,and do not want to get rid of them,they like being led of the flesh,and think they are alright with God,and led of the Spirit,which if they were led of the Spirit,they would not do the things of the flesh.

Millions of them out there that will not get rid of sins,and think they are alright,enjoying the world,liking material things,and money,and they think they are alright with God.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows which ones are His,and it is those that depart from iniquity,they do not hold unto sin,but they get rid of it.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

James said,do not err,it is those that endure temptation,do not play on it,beat it,and do not sin,that shall receive the crown of life,and it is eternal life,for it is given to all those who love Jesus.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Let no person deceive you for that is what separates those that are of God,and those that are of the devil,for those that depart from sin are from God,and those that hold unto sin are of the devil,and let no person deceive you to cause you to think that you are alright with God despite sinning,holding unto sin.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. \

If we do not have love we are nothing,and in no position to inherit eternal life.

But love does not think an evil thought,because love departs from sin.

Millions of them out there holding unto sin,and believing they are alright with God,and I have observed,with a big observation of the highest standards,that those that believe OSAS fall victim to this trap of believing they are alright with God despite their sins.

And they do not get it.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Matt well said. In truth we often claim to love God but fall short because we find the
path difficult, and drift away.

Praise the Lord for His word.
The more our hearts conform to the Lord the more His word sings to us.

Often those who dislike my sharing do not know the source and rise up in opposition
unaware of who the author is.

For me I have always rejoiced at a rebuke or guidance from the Lord because if He rebukes
me He loves me, Amen and glory to Him.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Are you suggesting that if a child of God (who is born of the Spirit) has a wrongful thought and then dies in a car crash before they repent of said sin, that this person goes to hell?!
This is an interesting point.
Is a thought sinful or just a mind picture?
A thought that is a dwelling on an action that is sinfully, is sin.
So a flash car, is a car that indicates something. But to covet it is a choice or action.

Let me therefore say, I hold faith saves, so though you die in sin your faith will save you.

Sin harms our relationship with God, and can lead to unbelief. I have seen this in some.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Don't forget the verses that come before and after that. Context...

Romans 8:1-11: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"


The verses repeat themselves a lot, revealing more information each time as confirmation, which ties everything together. It even confirms the meaning of "to be IN Christ" but if you don't read all the verses then you miss it.

Looking closely it actually says "those who are IN Christ Jesus (who do not walk according to the flesh)" - this is confirmation that those who do not walk according to the flesh are those who are IN Christ. It does not imply that the condemnation is conditional based on obedience, aka not walking in the flesh. So it is not a condition, but rather a confirmation.

It goes on to say "But YOU" (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Confirmation again

Put simply....
No condemnation to those IN Christ Jesus
Those IN Christ are those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (believers)
Those in Christ (with the HS) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (believers)
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in "US" "WHO" walk according to the Spirit (believers) - see above points
Those without the Spirit are not His and they live in the flesh (non believers)

And can't forget to mention the promise (assurance). Actually this is another clear evidence: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" - it says "If the Spirit dwells in you", it doesn't say "If you have the Spirit + do x,y,z" :)
Amen! Excellent post! It's critical that we read these verses in CONTEXT and also that we don't confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture. Great refutation! :)
 
Feb 24, 2015
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The logic below relies on a model that is mistaken.
We all claim as believers to be in Christ Jesus.
If we walk under the flesh, ie in sin and the lust of world, we are under condemnation.
If we walk under the Spirit, ie in love and righteousness, we are not under condemnation.

Now if you change the meaning slightly, and say having faith in Christ means automatically
you are in the Spirit, therefore not under condemnation, this is certainly one interpretation.

But Paul is addressing behaviour and the behaviour of walking in sin and that of walking in
righteousness. It is the whole point of the passage, which if you remove and reinterpret
to create the answer you want, that is what you see, because you have just changed
its meaning and links.

It is why you have to have a pure heart, and know what righteousness is to see what Paul
is addressing. If your heart says you fail, then ofcourse this interpretation is not going to
sit well with you that Paul is saying resolve your sin.
So scripture can become a self justifying exercise, where you see what
you want to because you have already biased it before reading. Ironic.

It is not difficult is you start with, have I got unresolved sin in my life, let me sort this
out with God, then you will see plainly.

Don't forget the verses that come before and after that. Context...

Romans 8:1-11: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"


The verses repeat themselves a lot, revealing more information each time as confirmation, which ties everything together. It even confirms the meaning of "to be IN Christ" but if you don't read all the verses then you miss it.

Looking closely it actually says "those who are IN Christ Jesus (who do not walk according to the flesh)" - this is confirmation that those who do not walk according to the flesh are those who are IN Christ. It does not imply that the condemnation is conditional based on obedience, aka not walking in the flesh. So it is not a condition, but rather a confirmation.

It goes on to say "But YOU" (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Confirmation again.


Put simply....
No condemnation to those IN Christ Jesus
Those IN Christ are those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (believers)
Those in Christ (with the HS) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (believers)
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in "US" "WHO" walk according to the Spirit (believers) - see above points
Those without the Spirit are not His and they live in the flesh (non believers)

And can't forget to mention the promise (assurance). Actually this is another clear evidence: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" - it says "If the Spirit dwells in you", it doesn't say "If you have the Spirit + do x,y,z" :)
 
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Mar 28, 2016
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Sin harms our relationship with God, and can lead to unbelief. I have seen this in some
Yes and when our Savior calls one of His children turning them towards Him after they have sined , then after they are turned thye can repent. He must do the first works.

All sin leads to unbelief. It’s where it comes from. The question is who will pay the wage of it (eternal damnation.) every time they do deny in unbelief. Can Christ deny himself if He has paid the wage, as finished living work, as a living sacrifice?

We are saved by the faith of Christ; this is seeing anyone’s faith without works has no life, just as a body without a spirit has no life needed to move it. It’s where the grace of Christ comes from a living sacrifice. It continuously washes away our sin.

We walk by faith not by sight. It as that not seen illuminates our hearts so that we can beleive. Him not seen

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from “all sin”.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Jo 1:7


Who cleanses you of your sin or have you not sinned ?
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Yes and when our Savior calls one of His children turning them towards Him after they have sined , then after they are turned thye can repent. He must do the first works.

All sin leads to unbelief. It’s where it comes from. The question is who will pay the wage of it (eternal damnation.) every time they do deny in unbelief. Can Christ deny himself if He has paid the wage, as finished living work, as a living sacrifice?

We are saved by the faith of Christ; this is seeing anyone’s faith without works has no life, just as a body without a spirit has no life needed to move it. It’s where the grace of Christ comes from a living sacrifice. It continuously washes away our sin.

We walk by faith not by sight. It as that not seen illuminates our hearts so that we can beleive. Him not seen

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from “all sin”.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Jo 1:7


Who cleanses you of your sin or have you not sinned ?
We have all sinned and we are washed by the blood of the lamb, amen
 
Dec 3, 2016
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But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from “all sin”
Modern false preachers are claiming we can walk in darkness and our sins are still cleansed which is a lie of the devil.
It's ear tickling at it's finest!