To be perfect or not!
- Thread starter Cobus
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Philippians 3 you have to deliberately avoid it.
1 john 1;* doesn't say anything about you will sin forever.
AND your dilemma is, earlier in the chapter John said HIM and his Coterie walked in the light like Jesus. AND THEY HAD TO to be in fellowship with HIM.
So your view would say Jesus sinned when he walked in the light. You got problems all over the place with that one. Can you reconcile 1 john 1:8 with 5:18 or 3:6 or 3:9? Interpreting it your way, which requires you to add AND remove words in the verse, forces you to have to add and remove words from the other three as well.
This is a whole other discussion, if you wish, start it and I'll join in. But you can't even begin to bend 1:8 into saying you will sin forever. Sorry, that's an epic fail.
1 john 1;* doesn't say anything about you will sin forever.
AND your dilemma is, earlier in the chapter John said HIM and his Coterie walked in the light like Jesus. AND THEY HAD TO to be in fellowship with HIM.
So your view would say Jesus sinned when he walked in the light. You got problems all over the place with that one. Can you reconcile 1 john 1:8 with 5:18 or 3:6 or 3:9? Interpreting it your way, which requires you to add AND remove words in the verse, forces you to have to add and remove words from the other three as well.
This is a whole other discussion, if you wish, start it and I'll join in. But you can't even begin to bend 1:8 into saying you will sin forever. Sorry, that's an epic fail.
15 Let us therefore, as many as are [j]perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep [k]living by that same standard to which we have attained.
Phil 3: NASB
Paul discussed the mature and the immature. The milk and the meat. Those are the perfect and the imperfect. Ya gotta know what the word means and read it as it's written, NOT warp it to today's utopian 15o year old meaning.
Phil 3: NASB
Paul discussed the mature and the immature. The milk and the meat. Those are the perfect and the imperfect. Ya gotta know what the word means and read it as it's written, NOT warp it to today's utopian 15o year old meaning.
B
Xian........ There are no half truths here. 1John 1: 8....If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sind and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10.... If we claim we have not sinned we make Him out to ve a liar and His word has no place in our lives."
it's the gospel message. NOTICE YOU IGNORED THE REST OF MY ANSWER?
I suggest that is because you have no answer. So you are left with this ONE LINE out of the whole dang letter that stands in your favor, IF you interpret it YOUR way and not how it is written. Shouldn't that tell you something when you have to bend the REST OF THE LETTER around your pet interpretation?
Here, You can "not claim" to be without sin, but still be without sin. If you claim it or not is worthless.
HOWEVER every one of us is WITH SIN, for WE ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF (understanding 1 j 1:8)
If we confess that we have sinned, he will forgive us and be our mediator.
if you claim you never sinned you are a liar.
I WRITE THIS SO YOU MAY NOT SIN!!!!
WHY does he want them to not sin? That's the summarizing comment of WHY HE WROTE THE LETTER!!!!!
1 john 1 vss 3-7ish.
We (John and the coterie with Him) are in fellowship with God and His Son.
We write this so you may be in fellowship with US. (Thus those he writes are not in fellowship with God, YET! And they still have Christ as a mediator in 1:10, hmmmm).
TO BE in fellowship you must walk in the light as HE DOES. How did HE WALK IN THE LIGHT?
if we take your view, he walked in the light and sinned.
Your view has so many problems, that bucket is something I'd give you a copper penny for and use it to get the water off my noodles like a sieve.
I suggest that is because you have no answer. So you are left with this ONE LINE out of the whole dang letter that stands in your favor, IF you interpret it YOUR way and not how it is written. Shouldn't that tell you something when you have to bend the REST OF THE LETTER around your pet interpretation?
Here, You can "not claim" to be without sin, but still be without sin. If you claim it or not is worthless.
HOWEVER every one of us is WITH SIN, for WE ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF (understanding 1 j 1:8)
If we confess that we have sinned, he will forgive us and be our mediator.
if you claim you never sinned you are a liar.
I WRITE THIS SO YOU MAY NOT SIN!!!!
WHY does he want them to not sin? That's the summarizing comment of WHY HE WROTE THE LETTER!!!!!
1 john 1 vss 3-7ish.
We (John and the coterie with Him) are in fellowship with God and His Son.
We write this so you may be in fellowship with US. (Thus those he writes are not in fellowship with God, YET! And they still have Christ as a mediator in 1:10, hmmmm).
TO BE in fellowship you must walk in the light as HE DOES. How did HE WALK IN THE LIGHT?
if we take your view, he walked in the light and sinned.
Your view has so many problems, that bucket is something I'd give you a copper penny for and use it to get the water off my noodles like a sieve.
D
This website explains those verses. Is it Possible Not to sin? I hope you read and understand it but I doubt you will. I suspect you have a religious spirit (demon) which is making you think you must be holy to be a Christian. If this is true, then Jesus died in vain as we can save ourselves by our own holiness. ---and that mocks the amazing sacrifice of Christ's blood on the cross.
In other words, if I attain a state of sinless perfection not only am I saying I don't need Christ's work on the cross but I can boldly go into heaven, march up to the throne and say "NOW THERE ARE TWO OF US, MOVE OVER! If you can sit there and declare that you can be holy then you have made God a liar who said "Who so ever believes on (Jesus) will never perish but have eternal life. The Jews did not need to sacrifice the animals if they were perfect. Sacrifice is only required when one sins.
King David was a man that pleased God like no other and God declared him righteous. Was King David righteous? He committed adultery, murder, coveting another man's wife, lust, despised the word of the Lord and shown utter contempt for the Lord. God said David was perfect yet look at his sin! Our heart can be solidly for God. We try our very best to not sin, not because we fear God but because we love Him and want to do His will in everything we do.
In other words, if I attain a state of sinless perfection not only am I saying I don't need Christ's work on the cross but I can boldly go into heaven, march up to the throne and say "NOW THERE ARE TWO OF US, MOVE OVER! If you can sit there and declare that you can be holy then you have made God a liar who said "Who so ever believes on (Jesus) will never perish but have eternal life. The Jews did not need to sacrifice the animals if they were perfect. Sacrifice is only required when one sins.
King David was a man that pleased God like no other and God declared him righteous. Was King David righteous? He committed adultery, murder, coveting another man's wife, lust, despised the word of the Lord and shown utter contempt for the Lord. God said David was perfect yet look at his sin! Our heart can be solidly for God. We try our very best to not sin, not because we fear God but because we love Him and want to do His will in everything we do.
You left out lots of comments I made that cast doubt on your confusion. If you don't address them there is no need talking. I'm not giving you a soap box to repeat the same pet answer over and over ad infinitum. I'll be happy to discuss, but that has to go both ways. I won't have you lecture me. Give and take.
D
All the comments you demand from me are found in the link I supplied. That link directly addresses every scripture you posted. Please read it before you charge me with dodging your queries.
Here it is again, in case you missed it:
------->> Is it Possible Not to sin?
Last edited by a moderator:
I'll be happy to talk with them, debate with them on any venue send them to me. I've answered all the answers to the objections fifty million times. They will have nothing new. AND if you can't make the answers your self, I'd suggest you don't know the topic well enough to decide if that site has the answer, or just has the answer you want to see.
Well, it's hard to talk with someone who thinks if you don't agree with me you have an evil spirit. Dude, I take the bible as written with no changing of words. That site dances all over the place and so would you when you try to answer the objections I presented. I WAS interested in talking with you. But now that you basically said I'm an idiot with an evil spirit, I don't really care to.
No you aren't. But your ignorance is understandable as you are parroting someone elses views and haven't investigated the claims yourself. Sin or not sin has nothing to do with getting into heaven. WHY do you think you have to earn your way to heaven. That's antithetical to all of the bible.
That's a reflection of how you think you would act, not how I would act as it's not even congruent with how I see the scripture reading. So you basically just make up a strawman that reflects your fears of YOUR OWN CHARACTER and apply it to me. That's not very nice.
I never made that declaration, so what's your point? Are all of your posts going to be so catty and accusatory? You are going to be a bore, REALLY fast if so. GOD IS THE ONE SAYING HE CAN MAKE YOUR HEART ANEW. I'm not the one calling him a liar, you are. Scripture says, you will be made anew and the new person won't sin. And that you are either still the old in process of change or the new who is changed, OR I guess one who is avoiding change all together.
Use perfect in the biblical sense or get a different word. Your use of it there avoids the meaning of the word. It appears to me, I'm not the one lacking the understanding here. If I give you a hand full of crackers and some cheese, will you investigate it yourself, OR bring me your champion, rather than parroting their arguments.... poorly at that?
BTW, Paul stated point blank him and others were perfect. So I'm guessing you are some kinda holy if you are more divinely inspired than Paul was and are sit here to correct Paul Post Mortem. Mamma must be proud?
Look. YOu don't have a clue what you are speaking of. YOU ASSUME BELIEFS you fear I hold and attack your fears and assumptions. You would be wise, and not nearly as presumptuously rude, if you found out why and what I thought before you condemned me. You need not reply. You clearly have nothing but growls and accusations to contribute. Your post was rude, and offensive, and against the spirit of the laws of this forum.
Well, it's hard to talk with someone who thinks if you don't agree with me you have an evil spirit. Dude, I take the bible as written with no changing of words. That site dances all over the place and so would you when you try to answer the objections I presented. I WAS interested in talking with you. But now that you basically said I'm an idiot with an evil spirit, I don't really care to.
No you aren't. But your ignorance is understandable as you are parroting someone elses views and haven't investigated the claims yourself. Sin or not sin has nothing to do with getting into heaven. WHY do you think you have to earn your way to heaven. That's antithetical to all of the bible.
That's a reflection of how you think you would act, not how I would act as it's not even congruent with how I see the scripture reading. So you basically just make up a strawman that reflects your fears of YOUR OWN CHARACTER and apply it to me. That's not very nice.
I never made that declaration, so what's your point? Are all of your posts going to be so catty and accusatory? You are going to be a bore, REALLY fast if so. GOD IS THE ONE SAYING HE CAN MAKE YOUR HEART ANEW. I'm not the one calling him a liar, you are. Scripture says, you will be made anew and the new person won't sin. And that you are either still the old in process of change or the new who is changed, OR I guess one who is avoiding change all together.
Use perfect in the biblical sense or get a different word. Your use of it there avoids the meaning of the word. It appears to me, I'm not the one lacking the understanding here. If I give you a hand full of crackers and some cheese, will you investigate it yourself, OR bring me your champion, rather than parroting their arguments.... poorly at that?
BTW, Paul stated point blank him and others were perfect. So I'm guessing you are some kinda holy if you are more divinely inspired than Paul was and are sit here to correct Paul Post Mortem. Mamma must be proud?
Look. YOu don't have a clue what you are speaking of. YOU ASSUME BELIEFS you fear I hold and attack your fears and assumptions. You would be wise, and not nearly as presumptuously rude, if you found out why and what I thought before you condemned me. You need not reply. You clearly have nothing but growls and accusations to contribute. Your post was rude, and offensive, and against the spirit of the laws of this forum.
Bring Joseph Nally here, or answer my arguments, or get off my back and admit you don't understand. it's easy. I'm not going to write a treatise to debate his post, that others can take and remove parts out of context and cause the man grief.
You can't make much less defend his arguments, so when I answer them, you wouldn't know if it's an answer or not.
So to continue this conversation along your thread of focus is pointless.
You can't make much less defend his arguments, so when I answer them, you wouldn't know if it's an answer or not.
So to continue this conversation along your thread of focus is pointless.
I'm sure there is a "sinless" perfection thread somewhere?
I've given an indepth explanation of 1 john. Until you address that, there is no need moving forward.
I'm not here to lecture. NOR to be lectured at. I'm here to teach and learn. that happens by putting opposing ideas together and both sides making moves to understand the other.
If you don't wish to partake of that sorta conversation, we have no need to discuss.
You can start with Post 27.
Heck you can avoid all the post and just tell me, how could JOHN walk in the light AS GOD DOES, and still sin?
To do so means either....
God sins.....
John doesn't sin......
He's lying and not in the light AS HE IS.
And you could then go to 2:1, if he's writing this to them so they may not sin, and in vs six or eight he says you are nearly there you only need a little more darkness to be washed off.... What do you think he is discussing? I'm suggesting it's the darkness on them in the first chapter who aren't in fellowship and aren't walking in the light. THUS THOSE WHO DO WALK IN THE LIGHT don't have the darkness on them anymore. AND PERIPATEO, or WALK isn't talking about your trip to the store... It's talking about a lifestyle.
I've given an indepth explanation of 1 john. Until you address that, there is no need moving forward.
I'm not here to lecture. NOR to be lectured at. I'm here to teach and learn. that happens by putting opposing ideas together and both sides making moves to understand the other.
If you don't wish to partake of that sorta conversation, we have no need to discuss.
You can start with Post 27.
Heck you can avoid all the post and just tell me, how could JOHN walk in the light AS GOD DOES, and still sin?
To do so means either....
God sins.....
John doesn't sin......
He's lying and not in the light AS HE IS.
And you could then go to 2:1, if he's writing this to them so they may not sin, and in vs six or eight he says you are nearly there you only need a little more darkness to be washed off.... What do you think he is discussing? I'm suggesting it's the darkness on them in the first chapter who aren't in fellowship and aren't walking in the light. THUS THOSE WHO DO WALK IN THE LIGHT don't have the darkness on them anymore. AND PERIPATEO, or WALK isn't talking about your trip to the store... It's talking about a lifestyle.
I wonder why you take pot shot answers from all over the Bible, and not address the issues we already have on the table? I can't and won't answer the others, until we can get on the same page of the ones already there.
You must vote democrat, because you avoid the condemning points and try to throw more stuff on the wall to confuse the discussion, just like they do.
But Paul answers this in phil three when he comments, he doesn't know if he has sinned or not, he doesn't fret it he runs to the goal.
Paul had a goal that didn't exist yet for the tax collector.
NOW STOP AVOIDING THE ARGUMENTS!
F
My pastor had a word on this where perfect in the bible is not flawless but completely developed spiritually or mature in the faith, perfection defined by the world as flawlessness and accuracy 100% would require one to know everything recall everything and etc et the only one who can do that is God
also perfectionism is really dangerous, you will end up falling from grace saying this from experience and also could be considered bending towards the law because it implies perfect performance but one thing i learned today is God accepts me even though i am a sinner because the blood of Jesuz makes me clean from all unrighteousness and Jesus accepts me unconditionally even though i am horrible and sinful
also perfectionism is really dangerous, you will end up falling from grace saying this from experience and also could be considered bending towards the law because it implies perfect performance but one thing i learned today is God accepts me even though i am a sinner because the blood of Jesuz makes me clean from all unrighteousness and Jesus accepts me unconditionally even though i am horrible and sinful
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Actually I do not vote at all. I find politics to be a huge waste of my time and energy, but I was a republican, if that makes me cool in your eyes.
I gave you a link which dealt with each and every scripture you posted. I do not understand why you have not read the link I posted twice for you to read. I mean you demand answers but then demand they be in a specific format or they are unacceptable.
Because you your rigid demands I will answer one of those verses. I will not delve into them all as I hate posting a wall of text. In return for my answers I hope you will be willing to discuss other people's questions posted to you with out name calling or being rude as you have been in several of your posts.
I gave you a link which dealt with each and every scripture you posted. I do not understand why you have not read the link I posted twice for you to read. I mean you demand answers but then demand they be in a specific format or they are unacceptable.
Because you your rigid demands I will answer one of those verses. I will not delve into them all as I hate posting a wall of text. In return for my answers I hope you will be willing to discuss other people's questions posted to you with out name calling or being rude as you have been in several of your posts.