To be perfect or not!

[danschance]

We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 1John 5:18 NASB

What does John mean in verse 18? Does this mean all true Christians stop sinning? To answer this question we must go to the Greek and see what this word in the original language means.

Strong's list the definition for this word as:

1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
5) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

Please take a good peak at definitions 4 and 5. Now let's look at how other translations have dealt with this verse.

18 We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them. 1John 5:18 NLT

The NLT is technically a paraphrase but here it holds to the nuance of definition 4 and 5 above. It is saying we do not live in a life style of sin as the word does. This makes great sense when we look at a verse before 18:

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. 1John 5:16

It makes no sense at all for John to say in one verse that we no longer walk in sin when just two verse before he says "If a brother sins..." So clearly this is not implying we stop all sins once we become a Christian. It means we no longer walk in a lifestyle of sin.

The link I posted twice, which you did not read says this of verse 16:

John implies that sin may be committed by a believing brother: "If any one see his brother sin a sin not unto death, he will ask, and he will give him life for those who sin not unto death" (I Jn. 5:16). This is incontestably a reference to sin committed by a believer. Sinless perfection cannot, for these reasons, be the import of John 3:6-9;5:18.

Note how the NLT translates this verse: 18 We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.

If John is claiming we are to walk in sinless perfection then his earlier statements (1John 5:16, 1:8) make no sense at all as he says we clearly do sin, but we no longer walk in this in a lifestyle focused on sin.

If you would like to learn more about this I sincerly hope you read the link I provided twice, and now three times ( Is it Possible Not to sin? ) to help you understand scripture more accurately.

 

[Blain]

SO MANY half truths here. But I admire your heart and humility. In other words, I don't agree with the details, but in general I like what I see. man that sounds pompous,, sorry, wasn't intended as such.

Can you explain to me the half truths in this post? we can never be perfect by God's standards, why do you think Jesus' sacrifice was needed in the first place? even then we can never be perfect because we sin not just in our actions but our thoughts and hearts. For example, have you ever thought bad about someone? have ever thought to yourself you are smarter than someone or you are better than someone? is your heart really as loving and caring as God's and do you truly see through his eyes? If we were perfect we would not have any negative thoughts about someone and we would not see people the way the world does. we would truly love and care for all people as he does and we would see them as beautiful jewels like God does regardless how they look sound or act or even their faith.

this is why we are not perfect because we think love and see with the flesh Not God, so do we give up on this? No, because if we truly love God and truly love people we will constantly strive to be like him on this kind of level. This is my constant prayer, I know that it is near impossible whilst we are in the flesh but I figure if all things are possible with God we might as well try right? Love and faith go far deeper than merely trying to be perfect.

 

[danschance]

Further more, to bolster my position on 1John 5:18 is how other bible translators have dealt with this passage.

We are sure that God’s children do not keep on sinning. CEV
We know that those who have been made God’s children do not continue to sin ERV
We know that everyone who has God as his Father does not go on sinning..CJB
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning ESV
We know that those who ·are God’s children do not continue to sin EXB
We know that those who have been born from God don’t go on sinning GWT
We know that no children of God keep on sinning.. GNT
We know that none of the God-begotten makes a practice of sin—fatal sin MSG
We know that those who are children of God do not keep on sinning NIRV
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin NIV
We know that no child of God keeps on sinning NLV

From1 john 5:18 NASB - We know that no one who is born of God - Bible Gateway

I could go even further and post from more translations, but I think this sufficiently proves my point.

 

[J-Kay]

1. Here on earth in flesh, we will be as our Master.... Jesus!
2. When Jesus comes again and we come with Him, we will be as our Master... Jesus!
Whether we are in the flesh (our mortal bodies), we shall be as Jesus: Perfect!
And when we come in our immortal bodies we shall be as Jesus: Perfect!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The above written by original poster, troubled me when I read it.
It made me think of how many are taught we are as 'little gods.'
I am not sure that is what he is implying, but it sort of scares me.
Yes, we will be perfect when Christ takes us home.
While we are on the earth, we are His representative and will do as
He did. God will use us and gift us with the anointing as He wills.
I am not meaning to sound like I am putting you down, just was
stumped by the above comment.
( Sorry my setting is not set so I can do the BOLD. I had to copy & paste.)
God bless. ~

 

[danschance]

Paul said he was perfect, and not only him but others as well.

Where in the bible did you say you read where Paul claimed to be perfect? Or where did he imply this? Did Paul save himself or did Jesus save Paul? If a person is perfect in thought word and deed he has no need for the shed blood of Christ. He can simply walk into Heaven on his own merits.

 

[resurrection33]

It's in our own best interests to be as perfect as possible, because when we sin, trouble enters our lives. When we don't sin, what can harm us?

 

[FIRE_of_ELIJAH]

We have little misunderstanding here...

I have never tried earning my way to achieve perfection because we really can't as long as we are living in this sinful flesh. But as God wants us to be Holy and Perfect...we have to try and live holy in God's Help as long as we live. I think this is the sole purpose why we were saved is to achieve perfection..to be conformed the image of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

 

[FIRE_of_ELIJAH]

@XianCatalyst

That above post of mine

 

[XianCatalyst]

Just as I thought really.

If you are going to claim to have had a thought, you should share it and make a point.

 

[XianCatalyst]

My pastor had a word on this where perfect in the bible is not flawless but completely developed spiritually or mature in the faith, perfection defined by the world as flawlessness and accuracy 100% would require one to know everything recall everything and etc et the only one who can do that is God

also perfectionism is really dangerous, you will end up falling from grace saying this from experience and also could be considered bending towards the law because it implies perfect performance but one thing i learned today is God accepts me even though i am a sinner because the blood of Jesuz makes me clean from all unrighteousness and Jesus accepts me unconditionally even though i am horrible and sinful

The bible doesn't discuss "perfectionism" as you describe it anywhere. In fact that has no place in this conversation IF WE ARE DISCUSSING WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

It's a discussion about maturity. Most people only know to be saved, they don't know the expectations of maturity nor what it entails. THE WORD FOR PERFECT, IN GREEK MEANS MATURE in our modern English. The word PERFECT IS ONLY USED by translators for traditional purposes as the people start baaaaaaing like sheep if you change a word from the blessed dead cow and dead tree bound King James Bible. The word perfect in 1611 meant EXACTLY what it means in the Greek. But the word has changed meaning in ENglish, and the biblical meaning has been left away.

I'm discussing the biblical meaning. If you guys want to discuss that no one can ever be Dionysius with nothing but beauty, charm and wit with no flaws, knock yourselves out. But it should be in a thread for secular discussions.

For the Biblical concept of perfect, you sure as heck don't get there because of your skill. In fact the biggest problem most people have with the concept, is realizing they have to let go of control long enough for God to take them anywhere, rather than proudly taking themselves.

 

[XianCatalyst]

Actually I do not vote at all. I find politics to be a huge waste of my time and energy, but I was a republican, if that makes me cool in your eyes.

I could care less. The point wasn't who you vote for, it's how you go out of your way to avoid the discussion. Either you are scared, ignorant, or just being a big ole meanie pie.

I told you bring the author of the link here I'll answer his objections. I'm not going to tear his hard work apart and him not know about it as others could read it and think poorly of him undeserverdly. I told you if you can't make the arguments, you haven't looked into the discussion enough to be qualified enough to HAVE the discussion and asked you to kindly step out. You are approaching pompous. You are repeating things. And you are ignoring what I've said. You are ignoring the answers to your objections, and repeating the same claims over and over and over and over. That doesn't make you right. It makes you a blowhard. I'd love to engage with you in discussion. You fail to make any attempt at that.

I read it. I dont' understand why you continue to presume things about me and what I have done and what I believe. I told you why I wasn't going to answer it. I can ONLY ASSUME YOU DELIBERATELY are ignoring those comments. That makes you borderline malicious in your attempt to discredit me. As I said, Bring mr. Nally here. I'll be glad to have that public debate. I don't need any preparation. I'm ready, right now. But you either need to shush up, or put up. It's offensive your attempts at discrediting me by ignoring my arguments and trying to paint your own reality in the discussion.

RIGID DEMANDS???? You said something, I answer it and you ignore what I said. IT IS A RIGID DEMAND for you to be honest enough to answer the objections I presented. WHO EXACTLY DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? Are you a King in some country I've not heard of? That's the ONLY office that could hold that position, and yet you jst did.

Don't avoid the point, you will NOT delve into them all, because you are ill equipped. If you were equipped you would have already answered instead of running to hide.

I've yet to call anyone a name. I've described your behavior. If you don't like your behavior's description do not commit that sort of behavior. That's on you not me. When you are rude to me, and obnoxious to me, I have a right to point that out, in fact I have a biblical obligation to do so. I didn't go at it in a pithy way. I said it very point blank and gave examples of what you did, where and when.

Now you try to posture and misdirect the issues with posting new argument after new argument. THEN you try to reflect your offense to me, back at me as if I committed the crime not yourself.

You are not being honest. Neither intellectually nor factually. You've flat out disrespected me about a half dozen times. Do you think it's proper to ask someone where they were for lunch, have them answer you, then you ask them again, and again, and again, and agin, and again? That's what you are doing.

You are not engaging in a 2 way chat, you are tryin gto bully me and lecture me. When I disallow you the option, you then try to cry foul and discredit me.

DO NOT continue to be rude at me, and try to say it's me being rude. You are in opposition to the intent of EVERY rule on this forum's guidelines.

 

[Starcrash]

Everything God created was perfect. Man and angels were created perfect. However, being a righteous God, He created them with the ability of choice. God did not want robots to worship Him. there is no glory in that. It was man and angels choice that brought about evil. Lucifer chose to rebel against God. Adam chose to disobey God. It was mans choice and not imposed by God. In fact God did not want Adam to sin just like He don't want us to sin, but rather respected his choice.

Would you really believe this was true in an unbiased context? Let's suppose that you see a child playing with a fork around a light socket, and the child electrocutes himself/herself. Would you blame the child, and see the parent as blameless simply for allowing the child to have the freedom to do something so awful? This is akin to what Genesis suggests -- Adam and Eve were given a dangerous toy and then told not to play with it, but given all the freedom in the world to do so. The fact that they sinned, especially if you believe God knew they would sin and didn't try to stop it, suggests "bad parenting".

 

[XianCatalyst]

What does John mean in verse 18? Does this mean all true Christians stop sinning?

There is no such thing as a "true christian". That's a word made up by elitist people who wish to claim to be more than the rest of the people.

To answer this question we must go to the Greek and see what this word in the original language means.

which word? hamartia? Hamartano? Or was it another? It would be nice to know where you are coming from here.

Strong's list the definition for this word as:
Please take a good peak at definitions 4 and 5. Now let's look at how other translations have dealt with this verse.

The NLT is technically a paraphrase but here it holds to the nuance of definition 4 and 5 above. It is saying we do not live in a life style of sin as the word does. This makes great sense when we look at a verse before 18:

there is nothing mentioned here about a lifestyle. You are putting that INTO the verse. I went to my other computer to see which it is. it's hamartano, it's a verb. It means to sin. it means commit a sin. There is nothing of any "lifestyle" in the word or the context. I'm going to beg of you to stop, at this point, adding words into scripture to suit your theology, and let's both work at making sure our theology fits with what the Bible actually says.

It makes no sense at all for John to say in one verse that we no longer walk in sin when just two verse before he says "If a brother sins..." So clearly this is not implying we stop all sins once we become a Christian. It means we no longer walk in a lifestyle of sin.

THE LIFESTYLE word you want to "write into" the verse here is found in 1 John 1, and Gal 5:16. It's PERIPATEO which means literally WALK. However, here, in this verse, you have to erase words and change words to suit how you described it. The problem with your "if a brother sins" argument is you presume the imaginary term "true Xian". Then you presume you would know what one was. Here, let's stick to the AUTHOR'S idea of who he was discussing. In 1 john 1 (NOTE I HAVE GIVEN THIS EXPLANATION 3 TIMES NOW, if you were UNRUDE enough to address it once, I wouldn't have to type it over and over and over...)... John says HE is in fellowship with GOD and those he writes to are not. BUT THOSE HE WRITES TO has Christ as their mediator. SO obviously the people he writes to are "some sorta Xian", right? Christ doesn't mediate for an unrepentant sinner until they repent, right? So, They are "Xian" but not in fellowship with God yet.

To be in fellowship with God you must walk in the light, (there is the peripateo word, your lifestyle concept) AS HE DOES. If you walk in the light AS HE DOES, if you sin, then HE must have sinned as well, else it's NOT AS HE DOES. So make up your mind, which is it?

The people he writes to, in second chapter around 6-8 John tells them, they are getting close, they only need a little more darkness (sin) to be washed away. OOOPSIE, they aren't in fellowship until the darkness is washed away, as we remember back in chapter 1, THERE IS NO DARKNESS IN HIM.

So to be in fellowship with HIM you must have the darkness washed away, and walk in the light as HE does.

Now later in 3:6 John continues that if you still sin, you do not know God and haven't met Him. NOW this is discussing those who ABIDE IN HIM, not just those under Grace with Christ as a mediator. See, John and His coterie abide in Him, and are trying to help these other believers get from not in fellowship to BEING in fellowship. That's why 2:1 says, I write this so you MAY not sin.

And then in 3:9 He clearly states if you are born of God you will not continue to sin (lifestyle there, or sinful nature) in fact you CAN NOT SIN. NOw the word for sin there, and the word for NOT there, literally, and with no exception means CAN NOT SIN. AS IN CAN NOT COMMIT A SIN. That's what it means.

See, my view is consistent with the key topics from the beginning of the letter to now. This was already presented. If you continue the conversation and don't engage this time, I'm ignoring you as a blowhard to not waste my time on. I mean that bluntly, but respectfully. It's not personal, but I really won't waste time with you if that is the case.

The link I posted twice, which you did not read says this of verse 16:

Which you presume again. And I've answered already, and you ignored and choose to try to rewrite history to support your attempts to discredit me. Isn't that a rule to not do on here?

Note how the NLT translates this verse: 18 We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.

I can't help it if you shopped for a translation to add a word you need to make your argument. It is not in the greek. The "practice" word. DOES NOT EXIST.They add the word, because they do not understand what John could mean, and determine, "therefore he left a word out". And so they put it in there. Well intentioned, but wrong.

If John is claiming we are to walk in sinless perfection then his earlier statements (1John 5:16, 1:8) make no sense at all as he says we clearly do sin, but we no longer walk in this in a lifestyle focused on sin.

Whatever. I've addressed this already.

If you would like to learn more about this I sincerly hope you read the link I provided twice, and now three times ( Is it Possible Not to sin? ) to help you understand scripture more accurately.

I HAVE READ IT. I ALREADY TOLD YOU I WILL NOT ADDRESS HIS ARGUMENTS, EITHER YOU MAKE THEM AND DEFEND THEM AS YOUR OWN or BRING MR. NALLY here to discuss them. I WILL NOT work against HIS MINISTRY WORK, without him being present to speak for his works. At least HE understands what he wrote down, and isn't just parroting other people's thoughts as if he knew something when he didn't.

 

[XianCatalyst]

Where in the bible did you say you read where Paul claimed to be perfect? Or where did he imply this? Did Paul save himself or did Jesus save Paul? If a person is perfect in thought word and deed he has no need for the shed blood of Christ. He can simply walk into Heaven on his own merits.

You can scroll back and find it. It's not difficult. FIRST you need to find out what the word PERFECT means before you read it. Your eisegetical "squeeze scripture into your presuppositions" approach is getting tiresome.

SECOND since you obviously didn't read anything I posted as I cut and pasted the word in there, maybe you'll actually read my posts before you come back telling me what I believe and don't believe, and what I have read and not read.

John claims to be living without sin as well.

Christ shows it as expected as well.

You are so busy wanting to show me to be wrong, you don't even have a clue what the conversation is. You are really, in essence, destroying lots of strawmen here.

 

[XianCatalyst]

Further more, to bolster my position on 1John 5:18 is how other bible translators have dealt with this passage.


From1 john 5:18 NASB - We know that no one who is born of God - Bible Gateway

I could go even further and post from more translations, but I think this sufficiently proves my point.

View that claim with 1 john 3:9 post conjunction, see the HARD NEGATIVE, and the verb for sin. NOT SIN. NOT COMMIT A SIN. Then go back to 5:18. In fact, don't bring this up again until you answer either of the long John Epistle summaries I've already presented.

 

[XianCatalyst]

It's in our own best interests to be as perfect as possible, because when we sin, trouble enters our lives. When we don't sin, what can harm us?

I agree with that, however, we don't stop ourselves from sinning. And if we continue to struggle for that we literally fight AGAINST God for what he plans for us.

We aren't to even be concerned with sinning. It's not about sinning. We are to be concerned with Love our neighbor. And doing the works that love creates. THROUGH THOSE WORKS, scripture writes, we will be matured, or perfected. Same word.

 

[XianCatalyst]

We have little misunderstanding here...

I have never tried earning my way to achieve perfection because we really can't as long as we are living in this sinful flesh. But as God wants us to be Holy and Perfect...we have to try and live holy in God's Help as long as we live. I think this is the sole purpose why we were saved is to achieve perfection..to be conformed the image of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestinedto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the worldto be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

We agree, we can't earn our way to heaven. The "perfect" verses don't have anything to do with earning anything. The perfection is a result of a life lived, not how you must live your life to earn the title.

However, romans 8:9 says clearly that the sinful nature is gone, IF YOU ARE INDWELLED BY THE SPIRIT. There is no other way to cut it.

In 7:6 Paul shows he's no longer in the flesh, and some folk with him are not as well.

And in another place he writes the flesh/sinful nature is removed by Christ by a circumcision done not by hands. Trust me, in my experience, a circumcision doesn't grow back. Once gone always gone. Unless Christ is a poor surgeon, and can not do the job, it says while we are alive on earth, he will cut the sinful nature from us. That is disposed of and never reattaches to us.

In my understanding, this means a lot of people claim to be indwelled by the Spirit before they probably are. AND THIS leads to a lot of misunderstanding, as people have to bend scripture to suit their claims rather than admit their shortcomings.

 

[XianCatalyst]

@XianCatalyst

That above post of mine

Gotcha brother, we are good. I liked your post very much for what it's worth.

 

[danschance]

There is no such thing as a "true christian". That's a word made up by elitist people who wish to claim to be more than the rest of the people.

which word? hamartia? Hamartano? Or was it another? It would be nice to know where you are coming from here.



there is nothing mentioned here about a lifestyle. You are putting that INTO the verse. I went to my other computer to see which it is. it's hamartano, it's a verb. It means to sin. it means commit a sin. There is nothing of any "lifestyle" in the word or the context. I'm going to beg of you to stop, at this point, adding words into scripture to suit your theology, and let's both work at making sure our theology fits with what the Bible actually says.



THE LIFESTYLE word you want to "write into" the verse here is found in 1 John 1, and Gal 5:16. It's PERIPATEO which means literally WALK. However, here, in this verse, you have to erase words and change words to suit how you described it. The problem with your "if a brother sins" argument is you presume the imaginary term "true Xian". Then you presume you would know what one was. Here, let's stick to the AUTHOR'S idea of who he was discussing. In 1 john 1 (NOTE I HAVE GIVEN THIS EXPLANATION 3 TIMES NOW, if you were UNRUDE enough to address it once, I wouldn't have to type it over and over and over...)... John says HE is in fellowship with GOD and those he writes to are not. BUT THOSE HE WRITES TO has Christ as their mediator. SO obviously the people he writes to are "some sorta Xian", right? Christ doesn't mediate for an unrepentant sinner until they repent, right? So, They are "Xian" but not in fellowship with God yet.

To be in fellowship with God you must walk in the light, (there is the peripateo word, your lifestyle concept) AS HE DOES. If you walk in the light AS HE DOES, if you sin, then HE must have sinned as well, else it's NOT AS HE DOES. So make up your mind, which is it?

The people he writes to, in second chapter around 6-8 John tells them, they are getting close, they only need a little more darkness (sin) to be washed away. OOOPSIE, they aren't in fellowship until the darkness is washed away, as we remember back in chapter 1, THERE IS NO DARKNESS IN HIM.

So to be in fellowship with HIM you must have the darkness washed away, and walk in the light as HE does.

Now later in 3:6 John continues that if you still sin, you do not know God and haven't met Him. NOW this is discussing those who ABIDE IN HIM, not just those under Grace with Christ as a mediator. See, John and His coterie abide in Him, and are trying to help these other believers get from not in fellowship to BEING in fellowship. That's why 2:1 says, I write this so you MAY not sin.

And then in 3:9 He clearly states if you are born of God you will not continue to sin (lifestyle there, or sinful nature) in fact you CAN NOT SIN. NOw the word for sin there, and the word for NOT there, literally, and with no exception means CAN NOT SIN. AS IN CAN NOT COMMIT A SIN. That's what it means.

See, my view is consistent with the key topics from the beginning of the letter to now. This was already presented. If you continue the conversation and don't engage this time, I'm ignoring you as a blowhard to not waste my time on. I mean that bluntly, but respectfully. It's not personal, but I really won't waste time with you if that is the case.



Which you presume again. And I've answered already, and you ignored and choose to try to rewrite history to support your attempts to discredit me. Isn't that a rule to not do on here?

I can't help it if you shopped for a translation to add a word you need to make your argument. It is not in the greek. The "practice" word. DOES NOT EXIST.They add the word, because they do not understand what John could mean, and determine, "therefore he left a word out". And so they put it in there. Well intentioned, but wrong.
[/FONT][/COLOR]
Whatever. I've addressed this already.



I HAVE READ IT. I ALREADY TOLD YOU I WILL NOT ADDRESS HIS ARGUMENTS, EITHER YOU MAKE THEM AND DEFEND THEM AS YOUR OWN or BRING MR. NALLY here to discuss them. I WILL NOT work against HIS MINISTRY WORK, without him being present to speak for his works. At least HE understands what he wrote down, and isn't just parroting other people's thoughts as if he knew something when he didn't.

Honestly, I do not have the time or patients to answer every single demand you place on me. I certainly will not respond to anymore of your ad hominem attacks. I proved you are wrong because you are wrong. 1John 5:18 can not mean we no longer sin as we are infilled with the Holy Spirit because verse 16 clearly mentions brothers who do sin. How can a brother sin and not sin? Clearly your exegesis is erroneous.

In a sense you are correct in that God demands holiness and yet He gave His Son to die on behalf of my sins so holiness may be imputed to me and all who believe on him.

Now I answered you question as I said I would. Keep your demands down to one item so I do not have to spend every waking second responding to your demands. Also, I have asked you once and now again, please keep your insults and ad hominems to yourself. Insulting others is a sin. This is a friendly discussion and if you can not keep it friendly, then you can argue with someone else, but not me.

I could care less. The point wasn't who you vote for, it's how you go out of your way to avoid the discussion. Either you are scared, ignorant, or just being a big ole meanie pie.

For the record, I decide if I wish to engage in a discussion. You demanding that answer every point you make, and you have made dozens, is unreasonable and rude. I am not "scared" to post or ignorant or a big ole meanie pie. On the contrary, I have a life that exists out side this forum and chose to engage in a topic or not. So far you have been very rigid, demanding, rude, insulting and if that continues I will simply place you on ignore and be done with you. If you ask me 27 questions, I will answer one of them if I feel like it. I am not your lackey who must answer you dozens of times a day.

 

[haz]

you don't even have a clue what the conversation is..

Hi XC,

Just popped in to check out what this topic is about and have noticed your posts make a lot of criticisms of others which only hinders any understanding of what points you are trying to make. Can I suggest you tone down your criticisms and concentrate just on points from scripture. Forums are difficult places to get a message across even at the best of times. I find it's best to keep a message simple and even be willing to repeat it if need be, rather than complicating it with criticisms and references outside of scripture.

We are to be concerned with Love our neighbor. And doing the works that love creates. THROUGH THOSE WORKS, scripture writes, we will be matured, or perfected. Same word.

What scripture do you refer to here?

Whilst I agree some scripture references on "perfect" refers to "mature", we see Heb 10:14 differently.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Christ's offering has perfected us, forever. There is no process towards perfection here.

However, romans 8:9 says clearly that the sinful nature is gone, IF YOU ARE INDWELLED BY THE SPIRIT. There is no other way to cut it.

I agree. Scripture clearly says this.

So what do you claim must be done to be indwelled by the Spirit?

In my understanding, this means a lot of people claim to be indwelled by the Spirit before they probably are

Not exactly sure what your trying to say here. Are you saying that there is a process Christians have to go through before they're indwelled by the Spirit?