To comfort those who speak in tongues

[convallaria]

1. Yet you covet the least one.
2. I can't put this gently, so I'll just say it: it doesn't matter what you think. Your thinking does not usurp the gospel. Paul, who got his gospel directly from the mouth of Christ, told you it is the least and you ignore what he said and cling to the least gift anyway. In direct violation of the word of God.
You babble in tongues because you want to, not because scripture tells you to. And you still think practicing tongues as you do is legit? Incredible.

1) Why would I covet what I already have? That is just nonsense.
2) Of course I want to speak in tongues, like Paul did, who spoke in tongues more than anyone. I don't cling to it, why would I need to cling to something that is already mine and will not be taken away? It is a done deal already. Also you have no idea what other gifts I have desired, or what other gifts besides tongues I have received. You will not find out either, because a) I will not be telling you and b) you wouldn't "get it" anyway.

What a nasty piece of work you are.

 

[convallaria]

How about through study, prayer, solitude, and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ? How can concerning ourselves with anything He can give us, rather than surrendering ourselves to what He can do through us -- possibly be better than that?

If you practised what you preach you would understand what I meant.

 

[convallaria]

My sentiments as well -- This lady was attempting to create an encouragement thread and people cannot resist the temptation to cause harm to fellow Believers.

I am moving away from CC for this reason. Enough is enough. I won't continue to participate while these unchecked and negative attitudes run rampant throughout the forums.

Please don't go. I think I will have to complain about Phil, he is really nasty to me always. If more than one complain he will be banned I think.

Thank you for being sweet and for peacemaking: we truly need you here!

 

[convallaria]

I wish you wouldn't go! What good is salt if not to season? What good is a shining light if used only in the bright day?

amen, well said shotgunner.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

1) Why would I covet what I already have? That is just nonsense.
2) Of course I want to speak in tongues, like Paul did, who spoke in tongues more than anyone.

Because he was an apostle. You are not.

I don't cling to it, why would I need to cling to something that is already mine and will not be taken away?

If you are so convinced of this, why do you feel the need to come on a chat board and begin discussion on an obviously divisive subject? If you are so confident of your rightness and the wrongness of the rest of us, that confidence would result in you simiply rejecting the arguments against it and doing what you "know" is right. But you don't. That, in itself, is interesting.

It is a done deal already. Also you have no idea what other gifts I have desired, or what other gifts besides tongues I have received. You will not find out either, because a) I will not be telling you and b) you wouldn't "get it" anyway.

What a nasty piece of work you are.

Again, you have a gift you "know" is from God and instead of enjoying it or using it according to His plan, you ostentatiously show it off and insist it really is a gift from God. Why is that necessary?

 

[convallaria]

Because he was an apostle. You are not.


Again, you have a gift you "know" is from God and instead of enjoying it or using it according to His plan, you ostentatiously show it off and insist it really is a gift from God. Why is that necessary?

An outrageously false accusation! I will need to complain about you too! Don't you ever read your Bible and allow the Lord to help you out with your ignorance?

 

[posthuman]

I think you have confused the gifts with miraculous signs.

no, miraculous signs are listed here too:

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
(2 Corinthians 12:7-11)​

If you think about it, miraculous signs such as raising the dead and the loaves and fishes are things that all observers see, and become witness to, and are in some cases beneficiaries of.....even if they are not saved and therefore children of God. Whereas the gifts as I listed in my response to you, are only for the church, for those born again of the Spirit of God.

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;
prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.
(1 Corinthians 14:22)

​

i think the most important point we should draw from 2 Timothy 1:6 is to stir up the Spirit himself in us, and let the Spirit determine how He should manifested in us, like it's written here -

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
(1 Corinthians 12:11)

​

Paul tells us we ought to desire the 'greater gifts' - like prophecy, but then Peter also tells us that no prophet of God speaks from his own will, but because he's moved by the Spirit. (2 Peter 1:20-21)
so, it's not 'prophecy' we should 'stir up' or 'fan the flames of' -- but the Spirit, and if He is willing, He will cause us to prophesy.
same with tongues -- we should seek God, and walk by the Spirit, and if the Spirit (not us) determines we should manifest Him in this way, it will be.
otherwise aren't we like Simon the sorcerer - desiring the power and the signs, instead of the Spirit?

 

[WoundedWarrior]

you ostentatiously show it off and insist it really is a gift from God. Why is that necessary?

Does she? Is this really what you pull from her OP and follow-up posts (which are a response to those who have taken the opportunity to create a debate, rather than realize her initial intention)?

I don't see it.

 

[convallaria]

no, miraculous signs are listed here too:

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
(2 Corinthians 12:7-11)​

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;
prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.
(1 Corinthians 14:22)

​

i think the most important point we should draw from 2 Timothy 1:6 is to stir up the Spirit himself in us, and let the Spirit determine how He should manifested in us, like it's written here -

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
(1 Corinthians 12:11)

​

Paul tells us we ought to desire the 'greater gifts' - like prophecy, but then Peter also tells us that no prophet of God speaks from his own will, but because he's moved by the Spirit. (2 Peter 1:20-21)
so, it's not 'prophecy' we should 'stir up' or 'fan the flames of' -- but the Spirit, and if He is willing, He will cause us to prophesy.
same with tongues -- we should seek God, and walk by the Spirit, and if the Spirit (not us) determines we should manifest Him in this way, it will be.
otherwise aren't we like Simon the sorcerer - desiring the power and the signs, instead of the Spirit?

Thank you finally for honouring the Holy Spirit by calling Him a HE.

 

[convallaria]

Does she? Is this really what you pull from her OP and follow-up posts (which are a response to those who have taken the opportunity to create a debate, rather than realize her initial intention)?

I don't see it.

Hi WW, I don't do what he accused me of at all. Probably neither do others on here who also speak in tongues, so he insults us all.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

An outrageously false accusation! I will need to complain about you too! Don't you ever read your Bible and allow the Lord to help you out with your ignorance?

And there's the anger. How very Christian of you. Again, if confident, this is not something you need to display.

Have a nice life, Con. God bless.

 

[posthuman]

No problem! (I forgive you totally) I realise this is a minefield but I can't think why!! To me it is all very simple...and it's all in the Word

Thank you so much for the kindly gesture.

i think it's a minefield because a lot of believers (in America at least) have had their faith damaged by the false teachers in the charismatic movement here.
it makes it hard for them to talk about this without being upset, and they project & assume things that aren't necessarily true about you, or what you mean to say, convallaria.


the Spirit is also love, graciousness & gentleness between us all -- IMHO we should "stir up" (or remind ourselves) of this

after all, Christ said the world would know we are His disciples because of the love we have for each other -- not because of tongues or miracles or healing, and certainly not because of backbiting & growling!

 

[posthuman]

Thank you finally for honouring the Holy Spirit by calling Him a HE.

thank you for correcting me

 

[WoundedWarrior]

And there's the anger. How very Christian of you. Again, if confident, this is not something you need to display.

Have a nice life, Con. God bless.

Would essentially be the same if I accused you of being prideful or arrogant of the fact that you are a man, or a Christian -- would you not be at least a bit offended??

 

[convallaria]

And there's the anger. How very Christian of you. Again, if confident, this is not something you need to display.

Have a nice life, Con. God bless.

Do you think Jesus wasn't angry with the devil?

 

[convallaria]

thank you for correcting me

God bless you, you are more than welcome

 

[convallaria]

i think it's a minefield because a lot of believers (in America at least) have had their faith damaged by the false teachers in the charismatic movement here.
it makes it hard for them to talk about this without being upset, and they project & assume things that aren't necessarily true about you, or what you mean to say, convallaria.


the Spirit is also love, graciousness & gentleness between us all -- IMHO we should "stir up" (or remind ourselves) of this

after all, Christ said the world would know we are His disciples because of the love we have for each other -- not because of tongues or miracles or healing, and certainly not because of backbiting & growling!

I completely agree with what you said in the last paragraph

Being in the UK and having come to the Lord Jesus without going to a church building first, I was in the blessed position of being able to receive simply what He says in the Bible, without any denominational bias or private doctrine added in to complicate things. All of the seriously important things that have happened to me, like the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and later receiving the gift of tongues...and other things besides....seem to have happened outside of a church building or group. I just believed and received. I really don't know why anyone would want to complicate it.

I noticed on this forum there are a few who want to lord it over others because they have a knowledge of Greek and can pick apart the meanings of words. But why would I need a knowledge of Greek if I have the Holy Spirit Who leads us into all truth, and if I have faith to believe? Why go to a scholar if you can go directly to God? Makes no sense!

 

[Splagna]

Apparently, you didn't read my post with care. It is carisma (charisma) that must have the infinitive present to be read as a plural and infinitive is an English construct to express the Greek pluperfect tense, as we have no such expressive tense in this language. And yet again, χαρίσματα does not appear anywhere in the Greek text of the New Testament, so there is no way Ember is "right" regarding this.

The gift Romans 11:29 speaks of is to the Jews, and it is only salvation. You too seem unwilling to deal with the context. It if were "spiritual gifts" it would be in the Greek pluperfect tense, which it is not. Also, it would have been rendered as it is in 1 TImothy 4:14, the word "spiritual" preceding it. That verse is, in fact, the only time the phrase "spiritual gift" is used in Paul's writings where the word pneumatikoß (pneumatikos) is not present, meaning "spiritual."

The mistake you’re making is confusing the noun χάρισμα/charisma with its verb form χαρίζομαι/carizomai. The noun χάρισμα/charisma is used in Romans 11:29 and the verb forms you’re referring to do not apply. I have no idea where you’re getting this info from, but it is wrong.


The plural form of χάρισμα is χαρίσματα of which you claim is found nowhere in the NT. As a matter of fact χαρίσματα is found at least 6x in the NT(Romans 12:6; 1 Corinthians 12:9; 28, 30, 31), including Romans 11:29.

Romans 11:29 ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ θεοῦ

Here χαρίσματα is a Nominative/Plural/Neuter (earlier in haste I mistakenly called it an accusative—the accusative and nominative have the same suffix). As can plainly be seen χαρίσματα is used in the NT and especially in Romans 11:29. Ember is 100% correct as far as the Greek is concerned. When 22 versions don't agree with your view of the Greek it might be a good idea to find out why they disagree.

As far as the context of 11:29 is concerned you’re right that verse 29 refers to the Jews. This can be seen by the use of the causal γὰρ/for to connect to verse 28. However, it is very doubtful Paul is referring to salvation here since he uses the plural χαρίσματα/gifts. In verse 28 χαρίσματα/gifts more likely refers to the promises listed in 9:4,5; who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, [SUP]5 [/SUP]whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen (NASB). These gifts fit well with verses 11:27 and 28 and Paul asserts that they are “irrevocable.”

My point in all this is that in post 104 you chide jb for his lack of Christian love, but turn around in post 112 and without love disparage ember when in fact she was using proper Greek. That just ain't right.

 

[convallaria]

The mistake you’re making is confusing the noun χάρισμα/charisma with its verb form χαρίζομαι/carizomai. The noun χάρισμα/charisma is used in Romans 11:29 and the verb forms you’re referring to do not apply. I have no idea where you’re getting this info from, but it is wrong.


The plural form of χάρισμα is χαρίσματα of which you claim is found nowhere in the NT. As a matter of fact χαρίσματα is found at least 6x in the NT(Romans 12:6; 1 Corinthians 12:9; 28, 30, 31), including Romans 11:29.

Romans 11:29 ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ θεοῦ

Here χαρίσματα is a Nominative/Plural/Neuter (earlier in haste I mistakenly called it an accusative—the accusative and nominative have the same suffix). As can plainly be seen χαρίσματα is used in the NT and especially in Romans 11:29. Ember is 100% correct as far as the Greek is concerned. When 22 versions don't agree with your view of the Greek it might be a good idea to find out why they disagree.

As far as the context of 11:29 is concerned you’re right that verse 29 refers to the Jews. This can be seen by the use of the causal γὰρ/for to connect to verse 28. However, it is very doubtful Paul is referring to salvation here since he uses the plural χαρίσματα/gifts. In verse 28 χαρίσματα/gifts more likely refers to the promises listed in 9:4,5; who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, [SUP]5 [/SUP]whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen (NASB). These gifts fit well with verses 11:27 and 28 and Paul asserts that they are “irrevocable.”

My point in all this is that in post 104 you chide jb for his lack of Christian love, but turn around in post 112 and without love disparage ember when in fact she was using proper Greek. That just ain't right.

So he got it wrong anyway! wow.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

The mistake you’re making ... /// ... just ain't right.

A great deal of effort to make an erroneous point. The origins of χαρίσματα (charismata) are far more recent than the New Testament writings. It is, in fact, Latinized Greek from the fifteenth century.

carisma (charisma); χαρίσματα (charismata)

The text you're using from the Greek, as with the Interlinear Bible as a whole in the New Testament, is latinized -- retranslated from the Latin of the Catholic Church. In the manuscripts we have, the word rendered "gifts" in Romans 11:29 is, in fact, carisma.