To comfort those who speak in tongues
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V
Apparently, you didn't read my post with care. It is carisma (charisma) that must have the infinitive present to be read as a plural and infinitive is an English construct to express the Greek pluperfect tense, as we have no such expressive tense in this language. And yet again, χαρίσματα does not appear anywhere in the Greek text of the New Testament, so there is no way Ember is "right" regarding this.
The gift Romans 11:29 speaks of is to the Jews, and it is only salvation. You too seem unwilling to deal with the context. It if were "spiritual gifts" it would be in the Greek pluperfect tense, which it is not. Also, it would have been rendered as it is in 1 TImothy 4:14, the word "spiritual" preceding it. That verse is, in fact, the only time the phrase "spiritual gift" is used in Paul's writings where the word pneumatikoß (pneumatikos) is not present, meaning "spiritual."
The gift Romans 11:29 speaks of is to the Jews, and it is only salvation. You too seem unwilling to deal with the context. It if were "spiritual gifts" it would be in the Greek pluperfect tense, which it is not. Also, it would have been rendered as it is in 1 TImothy 4:14, the word "spiritual" preceding it. That verse is, in fact, the only time the phrase "spiritual gift" is used in Paul's writings where the word pneumatikoß (pneumatikos) is not present, meaning "spiritual."
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but have a look at the full text of 1 & 2 Timothy.
where is Paul instructing and encouraging him on the use of tongues?
but on the use of wisdom and of knowledge, and faith.
the connection here - the only connection - is that it is the same Spirit who gives all the gifts. i don't disagree. so it's just as appropriate to say that 2 Timothy 1:6 is about raising people from the dead or multiplying loaves & fishes.
if speaking in tongues is the ember, it should be fed with sound doctrine, and fanned into the full flame of the greater gifts of wisdom & faith in the knowledge of God -- the point shouldn't be to multiply tongues, but to grow into a more perfect likeness of Him.
what is this good deposit, and that thing that Timothy heard from Paul?
miraculous signs? or the truth of the gospel, kept in faith, manifested in holiness and wisdom?
being miraculously fed fish & bread by Christ is one thing -- but sticking around to hear His teaching is another, and clinging to His message, not just to the lunch He provided, is another, and better thing
where is Paul instructing and encouraging him on the use of tongues?
but on the use of wisdom and of knowledge, and faith.
the connection here - the only connection - is that it is the same Spirit who gives all the gifts. i don't disagree. so it's just as appropriate to say that 2 Timothy 1:6 is about raising people from the dead or multiplying loaves & fishes.
if speaking in tongues is the ember, it should be fed with sound doctrine, and fanned into the full flame of the greater gifts of wisdom & faith in the knowledge of God -- the point shouldn't be to multiply tongues, but to grow into a more perfect likeness of Him.
What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you — guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
(2 Timothy 1:13-14)
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you — guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
(2 Timothy 1:13-14)
what is this good deposit, and that thing that Timothy heard from Paul?
miraculous signs? or the truth of the gospel, kept in faith, manifested in holiness and wisdom?
being miraculously fed fish & bread by Christ is one thing -- but sticking around to hear His teaching is another, and clinging to His message, not just to the lunch He provided, is another, and better thing
Those of us who have that particular gift know that we can lay it aside, if for instance we are becoming discouraged, and then somewhat backslidden... or the attacks of unspiritual people upon us become too much to bear....and many other reasons besides.
It is in these times we need to be reminded to stir up the gift that is given us....so that we are edified spiritually and others are too.
I think you have confused the gifts with miraculous signs. If you think about it, miraculous signs such as raising the dead and the loaves and fishes are things that all observers see, and become witness to, and are in some cases beneficiaries of.....even if they are not saved and therefore children of God. Whereas the gifts as I listed in my response to you, are only for the church, for those born again of the Spirit of God.
I note your clever remark about sticking around beyond the lunch provided. And yet if you would only do that yourself while in prayer, humbly requesting that you might be a recipient of these promises even as others are, you might be surprised at what you receive.
This is not a worldly kind of gift-giving, but a Godly kind, where these things are given to EVERY man (in the church) to profit....so that what we receive inevitably has a follow-through of blessing for those who are the recipients, either directly or as hearers.
G
And carisma (charisma) Is in the nominative case, not in the accusative in Romans 11:29.(Just to be exact from the post you are responding to.)
Paul uses carisma in Romans 6:23.
VW, If you would? I see the singular use in Romans 6:23 and the plural use in Romans 11:29.
6:23~~carisma 5486 neu ---- nom s noun--- grace gift
11:29~~ carisma 5486 neu ---- nom p noun--- grace gift
*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
**Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686
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Could you go into more detail why you think it is not plural in 11:29( I am not quite following you in your explanation so far). I do see it as plural grace gifts. Not as our "spiritual" gifts. But the Grace gifts He gives to believers......eternal life,sealing,indwelling,salvation,eternal security,righteousness, eternal inheritance,justification,reconciliation......and the such.
Paul uses carisma in Romans 6:23.
VW, If you would? I see the singular use in Romans 6:23 and the plural use in Romans 11:29.
6:23~~carisma 5486 neu ---- nom s noun--- grace gift
11:29~~ carisma 5486 neu ---- nom p noun--- grace gift
*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
**Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686
~~~~~~~~~~~
Could you go into more detail why you think it is not plural in 11:29( I am not quite following you in your explanation so far). I do see it as plural grace gifts. Not as our "spiritual" gifts. But the Grace gifts He gives to believers......eternal life,sealing,indwelling,salvation,eternal security,righteousness, eternal inheritance,justification,reconciliation......and the such.
A
Speaking of ignorance. (And you've been so bad at your assumptions today, I'm left wondering if you've slept in the last 72 hours. You're batting 0.) Here's the basics of the English language. When someone says something in mid conversation between other people, it is assumed one would clarify the statement if it's only roughly connected. That way, anyone else can actually understand said statement. I did. (Second time I've written that two word sentence to you today. Are you getting how out of sense of any kind you're being yet?)
So, whichatalkinboutWillis?
Get some sleep. And, if that's not the problem, then I'll be working to get you banned. I did sleep last night. (Yippee!) I'm still not in the mood for your harassment for no other reason than to think you're important.
So, whichatalkinboutWillis?
Get some sleep. And, if that's not the problem, then I'll be working to get you banned. I did sleep last night. (Yippee!) I'm still not in the mood for your harassment for no other reason than to think you're important.
E
VW
oooo owww......you just can't rake in the claws, can you....
and this coming from someone who started a big ole thread on how we should be careful how we talk and not call people names and who called me out because AFTER that thread wherein posted, I made some obscure comment that I cannot even recall about someone regarding their baiting others...and he called me out and said I should respect his desire to be nice to all because I said I would make that effort
I guess you got over that? eh?
I think one of your big books fell on your noggin
so are we even again?
now I'll go and see about answering you since the entire crew of over 22 Bible versions need your help
it may be a while coming, cause life goes on in my house apart from this forum, but it is coming and so is winter
oooo owww......you just can't rake in the claws, can you....
and this coming from someone who started a big ole thread on how we should be careful how we talk and not call people names and who called me out because AFTER that thread wherein posted, I made some obscure comment that I cannot even recall about someone regarding their baiting others...and he called me out and said I should respect his desire to be nice to all because I said I would make that effort
I guess you got over that? eh?
I think one of your big books fell on your noggin
so are we even again?
now I'll go and see about answering you since the entire crew of over 22 Bible versions need your help
it may be a while coming, cause life goes on in my house apart from this forum, but it is coming and so is winter
E
huh. whadayuhknow. someone beat me to it. well good then. maybe we should all dismount our high horses before someone gets hurt...I know, I have fallen off more then one horse...(real horse) and the funny thing is, when you ride, most people who are inexperienced, tend to look AT the horses' neck, ears or ground. And, that is just where you fall because you are not paying attention to where the horse is going but instead where he is and do not see what is coming up
If you watch jumping, you will notice the rider will look where he/she and their mount are headed. Coming down off a fence, the rider anticipates the next jump and so on...he/she is directing the horse.
This conversation (she said with difficulty due to the fact she actually liked conversations, but did not consider listening to what the other person says with great impatience in order to run over them and have your say (phew) a conversation) reminds me of someone looking at the ground.
You are inexperienced and falling off your horse because you have no instruction and by gum, it is one thing to read about riding a horse and quite another to swing your leg over the back of a live animal with a mind of its own, who's basic defence is to take off whether or not you stick around. It is a joy and unforgettable to sail along on the back of a magnificent creature whose strength far outweighs your own and to know you can do things with this beautiful animal that you could never ever do on your own because you are working as a team. You have trained together.
In fact, it is like flying and the feeling you get from being 'one' with the horse is...well....you just have to try it some time!
I don't think I am an exception, but I honestly do not think I could live day to day with human reasoning as the only way I know or can know God. He and I have been through alot together and more to come.
He tells us do not be like the horse or the mule who need a bit to direct them. We are to be directed by His Spirit...not books on a shelf or a denomination. His Spirit knows more than all of us put together...He is stronger, wiser, kinder, faster, and His intelligence is off the charts. You can attain more than you can dream about when you are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Just 2 minutes is better than half an hour begging and pleading in ignorance because you just do not get the fact...whether through rejection or because you are untaught, that the Holy Spirit prays through you according the will of God!!! He changes your heart and even your thoughts so that you are in line with the direction God wants you to go in
Do you have to pray in tongues to understand that? Yuh know, I don't think you do! I have often prayed in English in a way that I know is not just me, myself and I. Words flow in my own tongue when I am stuck...or after I have prayed in tongues, I will pray in English and it is like enlightening yourself.
Some of you know exactly what I am talking about. Some will say I am bragging. I cannot brag about something I am not the creator of...I am only a vessel through which the Spirit of God at times prays and through which a small part of this earth is changed forever because I give myself to wanting the will of God and when I do not know how to pray I know that the Holy Spirit knows how I should pray and that does not even mean to pray in tongues but it means to trust that God will put on your heart and mind the words.
I think some folks really need an attitude adjustment. You don't know what you are talking about and yet you insist you are right and we folks who pray in tongues or whatever in the power of the Spirit of God, have it all wrong.
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Why so much debate and arguing over the Gifts of the Spirit? What we receive is what God wants us to have. No one Gift is any greater than another. But yet people will base their self worth on which Gift they have!
The Gift of Tongues is basically a worthless Gift when used to build up one's Pride in themselves. I have seen way too many Christians that insist they have the Gift of Tongues trying to impress you.
Why do Christians not desire the other Gifts? Because its only the Gift of Tongues that people see in other people. Its a form of Pride those who advocate the Gifts of Tongues.
What about teaching, healing, bringing the Gospel of Salvation to the World?
All those who chase after the Gift of Tongues are doing it for their Pride and not for God.
The Gift of Tongues is basically a worthless Gift when used to build up one's Pride in themselves. I have seen way too many Christians that insist they have the Gift of Tongues trying to impress you.
Why do Christians not desire the other Gifts? Because its only the Gift of Tongues that people see in other people. Its a form of Pride those who advocate the Gifts of Tongues.
What about teaching, healing, bringing the Gospel of Salvation to the World?
All those who chase after the Gift of Tongues are doing it for their Pride and not for God.
E
VW
Reading how you castigate everyone who replies to you, I am concerned that you may desire to be the teacher here rather than have a discussion. You knew this thread was not written to denounce tongues or to cause an arguement, but rather to put tongues forth as a gift of and from God and brought into reality in the believer simply through the asking.
Yet, you appeared, flaming sword in hand, in post 11 on the first page in order to make short work of anything the op wanted to discuss and you did not even take a breath or ask quesions. You simply told us all we were wrong and you are right.
Everyone on this planet who names the name of Christ should understand that not one of us knows everything or is the expert we may imagine ourselves to be.
God is not responsible for your education or your desire to be right no matter what, because if you are not, y'all gotta go change some things.
What God IS responsible for...is putting the truth out there and then making good on His promise(s) to the person who asks and who searches. Search the heart of God because that is where you might find the truth.
I respect study...I do it myself...but study does not outweigh the greater measure of truth found in the 66 books of the Bible which do not agree with your introspective analysis of Romans 11:29.
I imagine there will be a tepid feast upon my return but for now, I'm gonna go make supper and probably sing in tongues and then in English.
Reading how you castigate everyone who replies to you, I am concerned that you may desire to be the teacher here rather than have a discussion. You knew this thread was not written to denounce tongues or to cause an arguement, but rather to put tongues forth as a gift of and from God and brought into reality in the believer simply through the asking.
Yet, you appeared, flaming sword in hand, in post 11 on the first page in order to make short work of anything the op wanted to discuss and you did not even take a breath or ask quesions. You simply told us all we were wrong and you are right.
Everyone on this planet who names the name of Christ should understand that not one of us knows everything or is the expert we may imagine ourselves to be.
God is not responsible for your education or your desire to be right no matter what, because if you are not, y'all gotta go change some things.
What God IS responsible for...is putting the truth out there and then making good on His promise(s) to the person who asks and who searches. Search the heart of God because that is where you might find the truth.
I respect study...I do it myself...but study does not outweigh the greater measure of truth found in the 66 books of the Bible which do not agree with your introspective analysis of Romans 11:29.
I imagine there will be a tepid feast upon my return but for now, I'm gonna go make supper and probably sing in tongues and then in English.
E
yeah Mike that would be great, but since we can't seem to get past even the rudimentary teaching.....
I never chased after any gift Mike....tongues is down at the bottom of the line it seems...if I was going to go on an ego trip, I would have chosen prophet or teacher
and who told you Christians do not desire the other gifts? it is painful for me to observe how people go BEYOND what is actually stated and then try to make it appear as the normative course of action for ALL Christians
I do more than speak in tongues Mike....I have other gifts too...but I don't like to brag
I do not speak in tongues or pray in tongues in church other than under my breath...and I am far from alone in that course of action
It is best not to assume...asking questions usually allows for respect and some consideration that the other person actually has their own thoughts on a matter
I never chased after any gift Mike....tongues is down at the bottom of the line it seems...if I was going to go on an ego trip, I would have chosen prophet or teacher
and who told you Christians do not desire the other gifts? it is painful for me to observe how people go BEYOND what is actually stated and then try to make it appear as the normative course of action for ALL Christians
I do more than speak in tongues Mike....I have other gifts too...but I don't like to brag
I do not speak in tongues or pray in tongues in church other than under my breath...and I am far from alone in that course of action
It is best not to assume...asking questions usually allows for respect and some consideration that the other person actually has their own thoughts on a matter
Because some don't have the simplest of them (tongues) and they are jealous of those who do. Rather than admit it they will accuse us of false doctrine, or of boasting, or any manner of things just to cover what amounts to their unbelief.
Again, I think that is something in the imagination of the non-tongue-speaking observer. What God says edifies us, He means it builds us up in the Spirit. That is misinterpreted as us puffing ourselves up in pride. I actually don't know how it can be possible to speak a gift of the Spirit pridefully. You can't speak mysteries unto God, as the scripture says, in pride: it just won't happen.
I don't think you can say that without seeing a person's heart like God does. If someone earnestly desires what they see as a gift of lesser importance than the others, it could be out of humility....and in that case they might find themselves blessed with the greater gifts as many are on here.
Again, I think that is something in the imagination of the non-tongue-speaking observer. What God says edifies us, He means it builds us up in the Spirit. That is misinterpreted as us puffing ourselves up in pride. I actually don't know how it can be possible to speak a gift of the Spirit pridefully. You can't speak mysteries unto God, as the scripture says, in pride: it just won't happen.
I don't think you can say that without seeing a person's heart like God does. If someone earnestly desires what they see as a gift of lesser importance than the others, it could be out of humility....and in that case they might find themselves blessed with the greater gifts as many are on here.
P
1. Yet you covet the least one.
2. I can't put this gently, so I'll just say it: it doesn't matter what you think. Your thinking does not usurp the gospel. Paul, who got his gospel directly from the mouth of Christ, told you it is the least and you ignore what he said and cling to the least gift anyway. In direct violation of the word of God.
You babble in tongues because you want to, not because scripture tells you to. And you still think practicing tongues as you do is legit? Incredible.
2. I can't put this gently, so I'll just say it: it doesn't matter what you think. Your thinking does not usurp the gospel. Paul, who got his gospel directly from the mouth of Christ, told you it is the least and you ignore what he said and cling to the least gift anyway. In direct violation of the word of God.
You babble in tongues because you want to, not because scripture tells you to. And you still think practicing tongues as you do is legit? Incredible.
W
My sentiments as well -- This lady was attempting to create an encouragement thread and people cannot resist the temptation to cause harm to fellow Believers.
I am moving away from CC for this reason. Enough is enough. I won't continue to participate while these unchecked and negative attitudes run rampant throughout the forums.
I am moving away from CC for this reason. Enough is enough. I won't continue to participate while these unchecked and negative attitudes run rampant throughout the forums.