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M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#1
I was interested in looking up the best English bible translation. I came across an article from one of my favorite Messianic Jewish Scholars. He gives kind of his answer to his favorite bible version, but he makes a few interesting points about the KJV bible. I am just curious how KJV-Onlyist would respond to these points? I think I'm going to post the whole article because I think it's pretty insightful to anyone looking for a good translation, but also I'd like to open up to some questions.


Question: What is your favorite version of the Bible?
So Dr. Michael Brown says...

When I became a believer in 1971, the only translation that was used in our church was the King James Version. In fact, I had no idea that any other translations even existed for some time after I was saved.
My first two years in the Lord, I read the Bible cover to cover five times and memorized more than 4,000 verses – all in the King James – and to this day, many of those verses, old English and all, are fresh in my mind. So I certainly appreciate the literary beauty and power of the King James, but I have not used it for many years, despite my appreciation for the KJV.

One reason is that the English language has changed dramatically over the centuries, and so some of the vocabulary of the KJV has a different meaning today than it did when it was first translated. A case in point would be the word “study,” which centuries ago also carried the meaning, “strive, do your best,” as in 2 Tim 2:15, which in the KJV reads, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” But this is not a call to “study” (although the end of the verse makes reference to the word of truth, so we all agree that study of the Word is important!); rather, as translated in the New King James, it means, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God . . . ” The problem, then, is that readers think they know the meaning of the word when in fact they don’t, having no idea that the word changed in meaning. (How many times have you heard this verse quoted as a call to “study” the Word – whereas that was not Paul’s main point here.)

There are other words in the KJV that are no longer used in English today, and I don’t just mean the “thee and thou” vocabulary. Take, for example, this verse: “And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them” (Mark 9:3). When is the last time you used the word “raiment”? And how clear is the meaning of this verse to you, especially the last phrase? Let’s try the NKJV again and see if this is more clear: “His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them” (NKJV). When you have some time, read through a passage like Job 28:1-6 in the KJV and then compare it to some modern versions. You’ll be in for a surprise!

Other reasons why I no longer use the KJV include: 1) We have additional, ancient biblical manuscripts today, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, which help us determine the most accurate reading of the ancient text. 2) We have improved understanding of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, allowing us to more carefully translate the truths of God’s Word. Shouldn’t we take advantage of this?

What then is my favorite translation? Actually, I’m quite picky and don’t have a single favorite, but I can give you a number of recommendations. Also, be assured that all the fundamentals of the faith are reinforced in all the major evangelical translations – regardless of disputes about which manuscripts to use and which textual traditions to follow – and with the many study aids available today, no one needs to be left in the dark.

For the Old Testament, the best Jewish translation is the New Jewish Version, also called the Tanakh (which is the Jewish way of referring to the Old Testament). To gain an Orthodox Jewish understanding of the Old Testament – but one that I would frequently differ with – the Stone Translation can be used. (Bear in mind that every translation is a commentary in itself, and so, Jewish translators make “Jewish” translation decisions while Christian translators make “Christian” decisions, meaning that Messianic prophecies sometimes read very differently in a Jewish translation as compared to a Christian one.)

For Christian translations, I have used the NIV for public preaching and teaching because it reads so well, but it often does so at the expense of translation exactitude, so I always check the original Hebrew and Greek carefully before making a major translation point. For those preferring a more literal translation (at the expense of really smooth English), the NASB has been a favorite for years, but I would now recommend the ESV instead, since it improves on the literary flow. (The ESV is getting a lot of well-deserved attention these days, but like all translations, it has its flaws.) To get the clearest sense of the text, the NLT (New Living Translation) is often excellent, but it should not be used as your main translation, since it is a mild paraphrase. All the more does this hold true for The Message. Used in a secondary way, it is often very powerful, but as a full-blown paraphrase, it should not be used as your primary translation.

I do not recommend using the Amplified Bible except as a secondary reference, since it completely removes the literary flow of the original text, also providing several possible meanings for each word in a verse without telling you which word is best. (Remember that, generally speaking, every word has one meaning in one context.) For an immersion into the Jewish background of the New Testament (in an intentionally overdone form), David Stern’s Jewish New Testament remains standard, but again, it makes everything heavily Jewish, including letters from Paul to Gentile congregations, and so I would use this as an excellent resource but as a second translation.
The key thing is that you get into the Word as much as possible so that Word of God gets into you. As Smith Wigglesworth exhorted, “Read it through; write it down; pray it in; work it out; pass it on. The Word of God changes a man until he becomes an Epistle of God.”
http://askdrbrown.org/ask-dr-brown/35-ask-dr-brown/81-what-is-your-favorite-version-of-the-bible


So, I was just curious if anyone here is a KJV-onlyist and how you would respond to a few of these objections to the KJV bible?

And,

Also anything else anyone wants to add, feel free. Maybe this will help you find a favorite translation?
 
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Jan 31, 2009
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#2
I was interested in looking up the best English bible translation. I came across an article from one of my favorite Messianic Jewish Scholars. He gives kind of his answer to his favorite bible version, but he makes a few interesting points about the KJV bible. I am just curious how KJV-Onlyist would respond to these points? I think I'm going to post the whole article because I think it's pretty insightful to anyone looking for a good translation, but also I'd like to open up to some questions.


Question: What is your favorite version of the Bible?
So Dr. Michael Brown says...



http://askdrbrown.org/ask-dr-brown/35-ask-dr-brown/81-what-is-your-favorite-version-of-the-bible


So, I was just curious if anyone here is a KJV-onlyist and how you would respond to a few of these objections to the KJV bible?

And,

Also anything else anyone wants to add, feel free. Maybe this will help you find a favorite translation?

ok let's start with the author of the paper he makes a quote that he read the scriptures five times but yet feels that it is more important, to just do as well as we can, than to study the word,,,HHHHMMMMMM!!!!! that's a little contradiction within it self is it not. from the beginning God told Cain if thou doest well, will thy not be accepted, but how can we strive to be the best according to God, if we have not studied His Word, take note I know one job of the Holy Spirit is to recall to rememberence of what Jesus Did, but again how can we remember what Jesus did if we do not know what he did, and how can we know without the Word that tells us this. second the author of this paper states

I always check the original Hebrew and Greek carefully before making a major translation point.
if we all could read Hebrew and greek then why would we need a english translation, If I could read hebrew and greek then: That would be the scripture That i would use > HHHHHMMMM let's see, we have an AUthorized English version The KJB, already been approved By scholars not an individual intrepetation ( which the Bible warns us that the Word of God is not for an individual intrepetation) so we have a team of scholars that agree that "STUDY" should be the word used in 2tim 2:15 and we have one person who claims to be a hebrew and greek scholar no proof of this with a individual saying that a team of scholars were wrong , and He the individual is right. and who do we believe????

now let me address the dead sea scrolls I watched the show on the History channel on the dead sea scrolls , now over time the scrolls have become so brittle than there were good sizes chunks or pieces of the pages actually missing, so the intrepeters had to reference other manuscripts to fill in the missing parts . if and which was the case they referred to the minority manuscipts which most folks will agree that the minority mansuscripts were for the most part not used up to 1900's in translating to english, because they were credited for being corrupt manuscripts, and these are the same manuscripts that most if not all of our modern day bible are translated from. because old the dead sea scrolls have have used which used the corrupt manuscripts to fill in the gaps. I was once told that a comptuer is only as good as the data that is put in to it , in other words if you program a computer that 2+2 = 5 then it will always caculate 2+2=5 , so the same with translating if you use a corrupt manuscript I don't care how much you know about translating, your results will always be corrupt.

as far as the old words such as raiment, if we are reading a newspaper and we come across a word that we do not know , or a word that is not used much anymore, do we discredit that newspaper, or do we just look up the word or ask someome else, hey what does raiment mean. God says if we seek wisdom to ask him, Not change His word!! I could go on maybe another post, some other day. if it seems evil to you to use the authorized version of the Holy Word, than use what ever you will but as fas as me and My house we will use the KJB.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#3
The KJV is corrupt, see this verse, the S is not capitalised for God's Spirit!:


Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,


So is this the spirit of god ? ie false god or perhaps referring to the human spirit?
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#4
Regarding the "five times" thing, I think he was referencing his first two years as a Christian. I'm sure that he has read through the Bible many more times since then.
Regarding the "Authorized" version, every translation is authorized by someone and the modern versions are translated by scholars, just as the KJV was. As for the "study" thing, it isn't just this one man. There are hundreds. If numbers of scholars is the issue, then the other translations will win the vote. If you would like I can show you a hundred more examples of how the language has changed. Nor is his study habits (I check the Greek and the Hebrew) a real issue. I don't check the Hebrew and only occasionally check the Greek. That doesn't make my choice of translation any poorer than his. Regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls, the other scrolls that they use to "fill in the texts" are the ones that KJV used. You really need to do some research that is not KJV-only sponsored.
I respect your choice to use the KJV, I definitely don't agree with your reasons.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#5
let me add here also my main problem with the new preversions , in order to sell or get people to use them just as this person did , You have to attack the authorized English version of the Holy Scripture, and doesn't God say if I be for you, who can be against you, so how can we claim to be for God and attack the Holy Word of God that has been the authorized English version/Bible for almost 400 years now.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#6
If the KJV was perfect there would be no reason to "attack" it.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#7
let me add here also my main problem with the new preversions , in order to sell or get people to use them just as this person did , You have to attack the authorized English version of the Holy Scripture, and doesn't God say if I be for you, who can be against you, so how can we claim to be for God and attack the Holy Word of God that has been the authorized English version/Bible for almost 400 years now.
"To disagree with honorable men is not to dishonor them." The translators of the KJV did an incredible thing and produced the best translation that they could. But it isn't in my language and it isn't in yours. You said "If we all could read Hebrew and Greek then why would we need an English version". If we all could read Early Modern English, we might not need a Present Modern English version. But we do. We are called to minister to speakers of Present Modern English. We need to do so in their language.
 
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#8
Regarding the "five times" thing, I think he was referencing his first two years as a Christian. I'm sure that he has read through the Bible many more times since then.
Regarding the "Authorized" version, every translation is authorized by someone and the modern versions are translated by scholars, just as the KJV was. As for the "study" thing, it isn't just this one man. There are hundreds. If numbers of scholars is the issue, then the other translations will win the vote. If you would like I can show you a hundred more examples of how the language has changed. Nor is his study habits (I check the Greek and the Hebrew) a real issue. I don't check the Hebrew and only occasionally check the Greek. That doesn't make my choice of translation any poorer than his. Regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls, the other scrolls that they use to "fill in the texts" are the ones that KJV used. You really need to do some research that is not KJV-only sponsored.
I respect your choice to use the KJV, I definitely don't agree with your reasons.
I think you missed my point, if a million translators were used on any translation but used corrupt data then the results will always be corrupt , and no sir i think you need to check your sourses for if the majority text and the minority text( the corrupt text) which was both used on the dead sea scrolls, than again faulty data will always produce faulty results.
as the individual translating, i was referring to this paper which you presented , and this paper was produced by an individual. and sir also I just Love it when someone says they have started a thread to ask a question when they have full intentions of getting their point across as you have if this one , is that not deceitful within itself. I do not need to check any other sourses that attacks the word of God, it was and is the word of God for almost 400 years now,
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#9
I think you missed my point, if a million translators were used on any translation but used corrupt data then the results will always be corrupt , and no sir i think you need to check your sourses for if the majority text and the minority text( the corrupt text) which was both used on the dead sea scrolls, than again faulty data will always produce faulty results.
as the individual translating, i was referring to this paper which you presented , and this paper was produced by an individual. and sir also I just Love it when someone says they have started a thread to ask a question when they have full intentions of getting their point across as you have if this one , is that not deceitful within itself.
I did not start this thread. The majority text of 1611 is now the minority text, it's as simple as that. And if you would like to do direct comparison between the Textus Recepticus and the Nestle text I would be more than happy to help you. You will find them 99% in agreement. Your problem, you would discover is not with the texts. Your problem is with change.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#10
I also want to post an example of what Dr. Brown said in his article to Job 28:1-6.

Job 28 (KJV)
1 Surely there is a vein for the silver, and a place for gold where they fine it.
2 Iron is taken out of the earth, and brass is molten out of the stone.
3 He setteth an end to darkness, and searcheth out all perfection: the stones of darkness, and the shadow of death.
4 The flood breaketh out from the inhabitant; even the waters forgotten of the foot: they are dried up, they are gone away from men.
5 As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and under it is turned up as it were fire.
6 The stones of it are the place of sapphires: and it hath dust of gold.

Job 28 (NKJV)
1 “Surely there is a mine for silver, And a place where gold is refined.
2 Iron is taken from the earth, And copper is smelted from ore.
3 Man puts an end to darkness,And searches every recess For ore in the darkness and the shadow of death.
4 He breaks open a shaft away from people; In places forgotten by feet, They hang far away from men; They swing to and fro.
5 As for the earth, from it comes bread, But underneath it is turned up as by fire;
6 Its stones are the source of sapphires, And it contains gold dust.

Can you even get the same idea from the KJV without reading the NKJV to understand what is actually being said?
 
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#11
"To disagree with honorable men is not to dishonor them." The translators of the KJV did an incredible thing and produced the best translation that they could. But it isn't in my language and it isn't in yours. You said "If we all could read Hebrew and Greek then why would we need an English version". If we all could read Early Modern English, we might not need a Present Modern English version. But we do. We are called to minister to speakers of Present Modern English. We need to do so in their language.
I have no problem with the old english I have copy of the orginal 1611 I love It? here is another lie that has been raised agianst the word." IT IS TOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND" sir do you realized that you or this paper has said that we have advanced in our knowledge concerning translating , and by saying this they and you are saying that we have decreased in our knowledge of the english language, for 350 years no one had a problem, with understanding the Word , it has been preached by and from people like smith wigglesworth, that did not have the education that most preachers are required to have in todays time and many knew from the KJB how God wanted us to live, from reading that same Bible that is too hard for us to understand, but since 1990's and the preversions being presented as the word of God, now we have so much confusion, we don't eevn know which translation to use, and Sir GOD is NOt the Auothor of Confusion but the preverted word of God sure has created alot of confusion and some even claim that this is of GOD!!!
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#12
I have no problem with the old english I have copy of the orginal 1611 I love It? here is another lie that has been raised agianst the word." IT IS TOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND" sir do you realized that you or this paper has said that we have advanced in our knowledge concerning translating , and by saying this they and you are saying that we have decreased in our knowledge of the english language, for 350 years no one had a problem, with understanding the Word , it has been preached by and from people like smith wigglesworth, that did not have the education that most preachers are required to have in todays time and many knew from the KJB how God wanted us to live, from reading that same Bible that is too hard for us to understand, but since 1990's and the preversions being presented as the word of God, now we have so much confusion, we don't eevn know which translation to use, and Sir GOD is NOt the Auothor of Confusion but he preverted word of God sure has created alot of confusion and some even cliam that this is of GOD!!!
Would you be willing to be tested regarding your ability to understand Early Modern English? From the KJV?
 
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Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#13
We have almost a whole new language, way of thinking, culture - a whole different mindset etc etc from when the KJV was actually translated. It was culture appropriate, language appropriate and understandable at the time. But times have changed and we have new and better translations that will help people understand what God is actually trying to say.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#14
I also want to post an example of what Dr. Brown said in his article to Job 28:1-6.

Job 28 (KJV)
1 Surely there is a vein for the silver, and a place for gold where they fine it.
2 Iron is taken out of the earth, and brass is molten out of the stone.
3 He setteth an end to darkness, and searcheth out all perfection: the stones of darkness, and the shadow of death.
4 The flood breaketh out from the inhabitant; even the waters forgotten of the foot: they are dried up, they are gone away from men.
5 As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and under it is turned up as it were fire.
6 The stones of it are the place of sapphires: and it hath dust of gold.

Job 28 (NKJV)
1 “Surely there is a mine for silver, And a place where gold is refined.
2 Iron is taken from the earth, And copper is smelted from ore.
3 Man puts an end to darkness,And searches every recess For ore in the darkness and the shadow of death.
4 He breaks open a shaft away from people; In places forgotten by feet, They hang far away from men; They swing to and fro.
5 As for the earth, from it comes bread, But underneath it is turned up as by fire;
6 Its stones are the source of sapphires, And it contains gold dust.

Can you even get the same idea from the KJV without reading the NKJV to understand what is actually being said?
YES, I can understand Job in the KJB, and I have never saw it before in the nkj. I really don't care what your dr Brown has said, for I say if you are for God you will edify the things of God and not tear them down and because the Bible says:



Ac 4:19But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
so sir do i hearken (listen) to your dr. Brown or God???? no don't bother answering this For I will hearken unto God
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#15
Well considering that is the Old Testament and Dr Brown does have a Ph.D in semitic languages and literature, I would go with Dr Brown over the KJV. But of course not OVER God. God is above all things. But you were trying to say the KJV is God? I disagree.
 
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#16
The KJV is corrupt, see this verse, the S is not capitalised for God's Spirit!:


Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,


So is this the spirit of god ? ie false god or perhaps referring to the human spirit?
oh wow!!! hello snail,l once again you are the one WRONG, there are many spirits that are of God, . here is just a small sample:

Ga 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the SPIRIT OF meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.Eph 1:13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy SPIRIT OF promise,Eph 1:17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the SPIRIT OF wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
one of these eph 1;13 is capital S but the other two are not, but all these spirits were of God, so if your preversion uses the capital S maybe it is wrong.
 
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Harley_Angel

Guest
#17
I do medieval re-enactment, and am facinated by "olde english". If someone didn't tell me in modern language what some of what they were saying said, i would be so lost it's not even funny. What's the point of reading something if you don't understand it? It loses all meaning to you. Some people simply don't understand the KJV. They read the words, but it doesn't settle in their mind, it's like staring at a riddle, you know what all the words are, you can read it, but it simply doesn't make sense to you. Some people can read it just fine, good on them. I'd rather read my NIV, understand what it's saying, get a feeling for it, and then go read the KJV with a modern understanding of what it's saying.
 
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#18
If the KJV was perfect there would be no reason to "attack" it.

perfect or not it was and still is the word of God, attack it all you want, I will not stand before God one day be be accounted for what snail Did, that will be on you!!! you even admit you are attacking the word of God and you think you are walking in the spirit of God when you do this????????????
 
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#19
I did not start this thread. The majority text of 1611 is now the minority text, it's as simple as that. And if you would like to do direct comparison between the Textus Recepticus and the Nestle text I would be more than happy to help you. You will find them 99% in agreement. Your problem, you would discover is not with the texts. Your problem is with change.
so if the majority of preversion are taken from the minority corrupt text, that still does not uncorrupt the text,so are you saying that the inspired word of God, from the God that can not lie can be corrupt and this is ok with you??? / HHHHMMMMM very interesting!!!!!!!
 
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Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#20
so if the majority of preversion are taken from the minority corrupt text, that still does not uncorrupt the text,so are you saying that the inspired word of God, from the God that can not lie can be corrupt and this is ok with you??? / HHHHMMMMM very interesting!!!!!!!
So as a KJV-Onlyist, you would agree no other English translation is God breathed or, inspired?

If so, are there any non-English bibles that you would consider inspired?