TONGUES false teaching.

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S

Scribe

Guest
#41
Still your heart is hard against the truth of scripture.


If you argue against a simple reading of scripture you are taking counsel against God.

For the cause of Chrisst
Roger
I don't know the condition of your heart but I do know that hermeneutics (rules of interpretation) would consider the context in a "simple reading of scripture" therefore you would have to agree that this appears to be talking about them asking questions and not a ban on them speaking in tongues or interpretations of tongues.

Also we have other scriptures to add to this idea of women speaking in church in the "theological context" of heremeneutics.
For example Philips daughters that prophesied when the church was gathered in his house. Now since the gift of prophesy is also a SPOKEN gift and since women were given this gift on the day of Pentecost and beyond we therefore know that women can speak in the church in decently and in order but it is in disorder that they are told not to speak.

In reading 1 Cor 14 three times it says for people to be silent in the church. 1) When speaking in tongues out of order addressing the people without an interpreter, (otherwise they can speak in tongues to themselves and to God, which is allowed) 2) When prophesying and someone else has also been given a word to speak, then the first is to be silent and let the other speak, 3) and if the women who are asking questions out of order should be silent and ask their husbands at home.

A simple reading of the scriptures makes it clear. All three "be silent in the church" is directed to both genders and is about doing things in order not a ban on speaking at all.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#42
Perhaps reading 1 Corinthians 14 would help :)
I don't think that Paul is saying that there is a specific angelic language. I think he is making a rhetorical point. That if you could speak in such a language, that without love you are just making noise. So this text doesn't prove or disprove an angelic heaven language.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#43
I don't think that Paul is saying that there is a specific angelic language. I think he is making a rhetorical point. That if you could speak in such a language, that without love you are just making noise. So this text doesn't prove or disprove an angelic heaven language.
So? That was not the point, nor even what I addressed. See the part I quoted?
Yeah, it asserted that interpretation was never needed. Paul says it was.
 

Robo36

Active member
Nov 27, 2019
186
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#44
One thing I know,43 years ago in my prayer, I asked for the gift of speaking in other tongues and it was given, the same today as it was then

Many claim the gift of tongues dosent exist today?

Telling me that, is like telling the blind man that was healed by Jesus, that he really couldn't see, Smiles (y)
What were you able to say in tongues? Did you understand what you were saying? Did anybody else understand what you said? What language were you speaking and to whom?

Speaking in tongues I do believe is the God given miracle of preaching the actual gospel in a language you do not know and haven't studied to people who's language actually is the language you are speaking. Anything else, incoherent mumbling, is a farce and likely the instigation of Satan and his demons. in my opinion!
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#45
I don't know the condition of your heart but I do know that hermeneutics (rules of interpretation) would consider the context in a "simple reading of scripture" therefore you would have to agree that this appears to be talking about them asking questions and not a ban on them speaking in tongues or interpretations of tongues.

Also we have other scriptures to add to this idea of women speaking in church in the "theological context" of heremeneutics.
For example Philips daughters that prophesied when the church was gathered in his house. Now since the gift of prophesy is also a SPOKEN gift and since women were given this gift on the day of Pentecost and beyond we therefore know that women can speak in the church in decently and in order but it is in disorder that they are told not to speak.

In reading 1 Cor 14 three times it says for people to be silent in the church. 1) When speaking in tongues out of order addressing the people without an interpreter, (otherwise they can speak in tongues to themselves and to God, which is allowed) 2) When prophesying and someone else has also been given a word to speak, then the first is to be silent and let the other speak, 3) and if the women who are asking questions out of order should be silent and ask their husbands at home.

A simple reading of the scriptures makes it clear. All three "be silent in the church" is directed to both genders and is about doing things in order not a ban on speaking at all.
I agree that those particular passages are more about order and disruption than gender.
However it's hard to ignore Paul saying that he don't permit a woman to have authority over men, (1 Timothy 2:12) in context with teaching.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#46
I don't know the condition of your heart but I do know that hermeneutics (rules of interpretation) would consider the context in a "simple reading of scripture" therefore you would have to agree that this appears to be talking about them asking questions and not a ban on them speaking in tongues or interpretations of tongues.

Also we have other scriptures to add to this idea of women speaking in church in the "theological context" of heremeneutics.
For example Philips daughters that prophesied when the church was gathered in his house. Now since the gift of prophesy is also a SPOKEN gift and since women were given this gift on the day of Pentecost and beyond we therefore know that women can speak in the church in decently and in order but it is in disorder that they are told not to speak.

In reading 1 Cor 14 three times it says for people to be silent in the church. 1) When speaking in tongues out of order addressing the people without an interpreter, (otherwise they can speak in tongues to themselves and to God, which is allowed) 2) When prophesying and someone else has also been given a word to speak, then the first is to be silent and let the other speak, 3) and if the women who are asking questions out of order should be silent and ask their husbands at home.

A simple reading of the scriptures makes it clear. All three "be silent in the church" is directed to both genders and is about doing things in order not a ban on speaking at all.
A simple reading of scripture tell us that three gifts have ended. Tongues are over and ceased from the church. The practice of tongues by modern church goers is heretical.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#47
So? That was not the point, nor even what I addressed. See the part I quoted?
Yeah, it asserted that interpretation was never needed. Paul says it was.
Point taken
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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#48
God said they would end. Are saying God was mistaken? Tongues ended per 1 Cor 13:8. The other gifts continue but for the rebels against God that is not enough.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
That's a little out of context Roger. I just looked it up in the Berean translation 3rd edition where we go:

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.

Being that I'll be 67 about the week after Easter and I have cataracts, glaucoma and tinnitus. I can easily understand why things tend to fail as we get older. For the record I've never been a member of any church that calls itself Pentecostals and parted ways with the Assemblies of God over refusing to allow divorced people membership. I'm what's called a Charismatic and believe that the gifts are still with us. Always gave been. However we all don't receive them and most that actually do don't necessarily speak in tongues, heal the sick, prophecy etc. We all don't receive the same gift.

One thing that has infuriated me for decades is when a group takes a part of scripture, out of context. Then make their limited understand of the same piece of text and build a dogma around it. Like so many Pentecostal's, Holy Rollers and AoG's have. Don't allow the denominations to confuse your understanding of scriptures, please.

In the Pauline letters it seems very clear to me that he is saying that not all have gifts manifested in obvious ways. Not all that do receive the more overt gifts like Prophecy, healings and or tongues recieve the same portion of the same gifts and don't make it a show or use them to show off. The very first Gifts are grace, love, faith, etc.
The following are the first fruits of Salvation. Not what Pentecostal and AoG dogma might try to bash into our heads.

Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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#49
I present the following information to help someone who is seeking truth on this topic.

The heremeneutics of the Pentecostals is superior to the ceasationist and that is why it continues to spread. Pentecostals do study the bible and decide that these gifts are available, they ask and receive.

I have been studying the subject from the bible for 40 years. I was studying all of the scriptures on the subject in 1981 when I asked for and received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues. I have been studying it since.

I have discovered brilliant theologians like Roger Stronstad, William Menzies, Robert Menzies, Gordon Fee, Stanely Horton, and many others who make anti tongue teachers like John MacArthur sound like amateurs.

If people will read some of these authors on the subject which do go through every single verse on the subject unlike John MacArthur who skips around using only the ones that appear to sound negative and ignores the majority positive verses, they will soon realize that they have not read as much on subject as they think they have. Too many times people have not studied the subject like the Bereans they mention and have a horrible hermeneutic based on selective readings.

When you see how thoroughly the subject is handled by Stronstad or Menzies you will fall on your face in repentance for the way you have disparaged the holy gifts of God and repent in dust and ashes.

Of course one can just read the bible, but unfortunately people say they do that, but if you get into a bible study on tongues you soon learn they don't know half the scriptures on the subject. So even though it is true theoretically that you can just read the bible and learn about the subject of tongues, most don't do it. That is why I suggest reading Roger Stronstad or William Menzies, or even Gordon Fee, which are respected theologians even among non pentecostal theologians who have persuaded non pentecostal theologians that their hermeneutcs were superior and have changed the minds of Greek speaking non penetecostal bible college professors that their interpretation was correct and conceded on the subject, turned from ceasationist to continuationists in their interpretation of scripure.

So before you claim that the pentecostal is not studying his bible you should look at one of these authors works that has convinced those who know more of the scripture and original languages than you and be open to the idea that maybe you could still learn something you did not know about this topic.

If these writers presentation of hermeneutics on the topic have persuaded Greek Speaking Seminary professors who were ceasationists to change their beliefs to continuationist don't you think they might be worth reading?

People ask me to read or listen to John MacArthur's views on the topic and I have. Then I try to get them to listen or read one of these authors and I don't think they ever do. Why? If they did they would suddenly see how pitiful John MacArthurs presentations on the topic are. These men are giants, MacArthur sounds like a dishonest manipulater on this topic in comparison to these authors thorough work on the topic. If they were to read them they would discover how poorly MacArthur handles the subject.
It is interesting that you made a lot of personal comments about what you have experienced but you did not make ONE SINLE comment addressing the actual Scriptures on what God said about the issue of tongues.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10.......
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Now the actual, real, literal Word of God as opposed to your experiences, says that there will come a day when PROPHECIES, TONGUES and KNOWLEDGE will cease.

Isn't that what the Bible says my brother???

The only real question then is WHEN.

Verse 10 says it will happen when the PERFECT comes.

The PERFECT can only be one of 3 things.

1. Jesus Christ.
2. Believers dieing and going to Heaven.
4. The Completed Word of God.

Now it can not possibly by #2. WHY???
Let us take another look at the verse whose phrase is in question: ......
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:10).

This verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations

Then for #1 and the Him being the PERFECT. The problem with that understanding is that the original Greek Grammar does not allow for it to be possible.

Now, to say “that which is perfect is come” is a person, is to support strange and awkward and IMPOSSIBLE grammar. The origianal Greek is NEUTER and that means the PERFECT in verse #10 has to be a FEMININE PRONOUN. Jesus Christ was a man = MASCULINE so the word is impossible to mean Jesus Christ.

Additionally, Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would be called “that which is perfect?” Do you think that Paul did not know Jesus and know His name or position.

The original Greek can ONLY refer to an INANTIMATE OBJECT , not a person. The phrase “that which is perfect is come” of 1 Corinthians 10:13 does not refer to Jesus Christ or His return.

That linguistically means that the PERFECT can only refer to the COMPLETED/MATURE Written Word of God.

Now, if you would like to discuss Bible truths instead of personal experiences then I am you daisy. But to debate personal experiences over what you belive you have happen happen to you is not advisable for either one of us.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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#50
Our God does not change. His children may not be perfect but they do not change so much either.

The giftss will be here as long as we are in this age.
That is NOT what the Scriptures say!
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
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#53
The day that they cease is the day that Jesus returns. We won't need them then bro.

10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#54
That is NOT what the Scriptures say!
When we come to Jesus-Yeshua, it is He Who begins a work in us, prfecting us to be exactly as He, but not He. Yes this may be taken as saying we do not change, for we are becoming like He every moment and finished upon His Day and in His time.

You see, we are taught of the Holy Spirit bringing the dead code, that is text of the Word, into vivid life and truth, therefore in this forum, and as believers we are permitted to convey what we have been taught by Him. Please forgive the run on sentence but it certainly applies in this instance.

God bless you, and remember, Jesus-Yeshua crucified is the strength of our salvation.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#55
The day that they cease is the day that Jesus returns. We won't need them then bro.

10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.
Jesus was already here and the passage does not say when Jesus returns but when the scriptures are complete is the point of the three gifts cited being changed according to the sovereign will of God. If you study Joel 2 you will see the completion of Peters message at Pentecost. It is the Jews who show forth the gifts not Gentiles.

Paul is speaking of the completion of the NT in 1 Cor 13 not the return of Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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#56
@Major You'll never convince anyone who has experienced the baptisim (Or infilling as it is sometimes called) that what we experienced was/is not real. The Holy Spirit would never allow it!
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
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Anaheim, Cali.
#57
Jesus was already here and the passage does not say when Jesus returns but when the scriptures are complete is the point of the three gifts cited being changed according to the sovereign will of God. If you study Joel 2 you will see the completion of Peters message at Pentecost. It is the Jews who show forth the gifts not Gentiles.

Paul is speaking of the completion of the NT in 1 Cor 13 not the return of Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
It said "when perfect comes." It was written after he returned to the father. He's coming back! That'swhen perfect will come. We are still sinners saved by Grace. Were not perfect yet. We're just forgiven.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,479
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#58
If you have attended as many Pentecostal church meetings as I have you will agree that what is seen in all of them is the habit of "SPEAKING" in Tongues.

It is a method of speaking in such a way that no one understands what is said.
No one interprets what is muttered.
Women it seems are the ones who do most of the "Tongues" noises.

Now, allow me to say that I have been there and done that. However as I grew older and actually READ what the Bible says it becmae very clear that what is seen today is NOT BIBLICAL tongues as recorded in the Bible.

So then, instead of just accepting what we have been told or doing what we WANT to do, shall we actually see what the Bible does it fact say??????

Acts 2:7-11............
"And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

Notice the phrase in Acts 2:11, "our tongues." The crowds heard the Apostles preach in their own native tongues, not some unknown heavenly jibber jabber. There was NEVER any heavenly languages spoken that no one understood and required an interpreter.

There is a drastic difference between Biblical tongues and the heretical speaking in tongues we see in churches today.

The "speaking in tongues" which the Pentecostals foolishly practice are UNKNOWN tongues, not anything found on earth. Supposedly, those unknown tongues can only be interpreted by ONE spirit-filled member of the congregation.

The Apostle Paul speaks common sense to us Corinthians 14:19...
"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."

Now before replying to this post from an "Emotional" response, and actually that is what speaking in tongues is, an EMOTIONAL event, take the time to do the work first.

Read 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14. Anyone can see that they are "Corrective" Chapters from Paul to the church and the CONTEXT is .....ready.....
Speaking in tongues".

Now that being the correct hermeneutical point then notice carefully chapter 14:34........
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. "

Literally....the CONTEXT demands that "women are not permitted to speak in TONGUES in church".

Without women speaking in tongues there is then in fact no tongues movement at all.



Your opinion is just that

when you say
"If you have attended as many Pentecostal church meetings as I have you will agree that what is seen in all of them is the habit of "SPEAKING" in Tongues."

You have not attended all of them therefore you can't be an authority on them. Your understanding of 1Cor chapter 12 through 14 is incorrect. The Holy Spirit does come upon women and women can speak as the Holy Spirit enables This s even in both Old and New Testament. You use descriptive words to insult those you disagree with and yet the word of God in error. That was not emotional response it was addressing ignorance. Merry Christmas.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#59
As long as prophecy is yet to be fulfilled, as long as there are many tongues, the gifts remain for this age remains for now.

As for the gifts being only for the Jews, if we read Paul' discourse on what defines a true Jew you will discover all who believe God also praise Him and this is what Yahweh translates as, one who praises God*Yah(.

God used me many times as a vessel of His will. When the Holy Spirit would come upon me, I would do as I was told and miracles were worked through even me as a willing vessel.

When these occurred they seemed quite natural, and they were, but it was only after obeying the Holy Spirit and doing and seeing the results did I have full realization that God had worked a miracle using even me.

One may use the most florid and convincing language given mankind to describe what is not true, however it is the Holy Spirit What teaches all who believe.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#60
I sometimes wonder if I "let myself go" maybe I could speak tongues, but I can be a shy person so I don't know if that's stopping me from speaking tongues.
You will never speak Tongues, The Holy Spirt does not force you to do call on youth obey. He enable the gift to be used but you must use it. We are no possessed by the HS. We do not have a out of control but self-control. The Holy Spirit is a perfect gentlemen. He fully understands your shyness and will work with you not force on you.