TONGUES false teaching.

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Nov 15, 2020
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Newcastle, NSW, Australia
#81
When no one in the congregation has the gift to interpret, tongues are to be only used in a very low tone while praying and praising.
when there is no one to interpret, can, for example, the pastor who may be speaking in tongues, interpret what he has spoken and thus share it with the congregation ?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,136
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#82
when there is no one to interpret, can, for example, the pastor who may be speaking in tongues, interpret what he has spoken and thus share it with the congregation ?
Being the pastor, it seems he would simply pass on what the Spirit has informed him to pass on without that kind of carnival showmanship.
I will not say it is not to be done, but it is a bit odd sounding.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#83
my observation is that it mostly happens with new believers because its the first gift given, though not every single person is given it. The first time it was given. at pentecost, there were mockers as well. Others may have gathered later and received the gift the next day.
as we know new believers mostly dont know how to handle it. and ones that dont understand it will mock others.

Paul gave some guidelines about how tongues is meant to be used so its best to follow his advice given in the Bible. Its not to deny it exists cos he said dont forbid it, but let everything be done decently and in order.

I think some churches go to other extremes and dont let women speak at all. I think it did get REALLY noisy at some churches which is why Paul wrote that women are to be silent.

well when I go to quaker meetings we just sit in silence and listen to God. No need for tongues.

when God gave me the gift he gave it was surprising but I am glad I have it. I can pray anytime. I dont use it in church because not given the opportunity but its just praising God. I didnt learn the dialect myself. but some indian christians completely understood me. when you speak in tongues you are praising God its nothing to be afraid of.

though to an outsider yes its weird, but hey we dont all speak english. God made all the tongues.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#84
when there is no one to interpret, can, for example, the pastor who may be speaking in tongues, interpret what he has spoken and thus share it with the congregation ?
someone else can interpret, otherwise its wiser just to speak in the language everyone is using. but the ones who already know the langauage of course dont need the interpetation. Its sometimes hard to know how many languages are known in a congregation at times espcially the more cosmpolitan one is.

some congregations also have deaf community interpreting in sign language, though there isnt a huge christian deaf community. Many dont go to church as they would rather read the Bible than sit in a hours long sermon and service where thry arent given much explanation on what is going on.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,136
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#85
The Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles at Pentecost, and when they spoke all understood them in their own language, no matter the language. This was a very special and unique anointing.
When individuals receive the gift of tongues it is in the manner of a special gift to prophecy and praise God and to pray to Him.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#86
when there is no one to interpret, can, for example, the pastor who may be speaking in tongues, interpret what he has spoken and thus share it with the congregation ?
IF you read all of Chapter 14 of 1cor YOu will see where to tell us those who speak pray that you will interpret in verse 13

13 "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

This is also prophesying which is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and should not be confused with a Prophet or prophecy.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#87
The perfect is referring to that which is completed. Jesus is not the object here. Jesus was already here and departed into heaven. His Holy Spirit remains here so there is no anticipation of a change in the Holy Spirit.

The NT is what was only in the process of being delivered by God and upon it's completion the temporary gifts would end. In Joel 2 we see the restoration of some gifts to the Jews.

The object is that the word of God with the Holy Spirit brings lost souls to Christ. The believer is to serve Christ not himself. The believe is to be a witness of the saving power of God through the word, the blood and by the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
wrong you say that verse 8 is speaking of the canonization it is not. You and those like you have been wrong with that allegorizing of verse 8 of chapter 13 found in 1cor. You don't even have biblical verses to support your own claim yet you a hypocrite are suggesting others are doing what you are. "That which perfect has come" is not speaking of the word of God Paul knows full well the word of God is perfect already and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God as Paul said it was in Roman 10.

1 Corinthians chapter 12 through 14 is speaking of the pneumatika and the Charismata the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit also speaks of what is known as the katartismos which Paul covers in Eph 4

The gifts of the Holy Spirit for the three areas of the church body

1. the Pneumatika found in 1cor 12 through 14
2. the Charmata which are also found in 1cor 12
3. there are the Katartismos and didōmi found in eph 4 and 1cor 12 In Hebrew 2:4 read bout the distinction of the Holy Spirt gifts (merizō).


This is all biblical, you have not provided anything to refute this, only one verse you use to rip out three-chapter in 1cor 12 -14. You will not have any other text or passage to support your claim and have the gall to say we are unbiblical? Please you are a buffoon.
 
Mar 21, 2009
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New York
#88
IF you read all of Chapter 14 of 1cor YOu will see where to tell us those who speak pray that you will interpret in verse 13

13 "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

This is also prophesying which is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and should not be confused with a Prophet or prophecy.
13 "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

It is amazing to me how verses like that are ignored by those who are ashamed of the gifts.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#89
13 "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

It is amazing to me how verses like that are ignored by those who are ashamed of the gifts.
Yes, it is, and this is why we have those who are against what God by the Holy Spirit provided for the Body of Christ to edify all. The unlearned and ignorant cause many to mock and scoff, however, that being said with all the mistakes; this is not to be taken the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. Lord knows we have many Pastors who have abused the gift which a "Pastor" is a gift to the Church ( equipping gift) known in the Greek as katartismos. WE have yet to see this "Gift" be removed and I can tell you those of the fivefold have done more to hurt the Body of Christ than the gifts of the Holy which have never hurt anyone.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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#90
Yes. Those chapters are there to show us how tongues were being abused and how they should not be elevated to any special status. Paul said that he would rather speak 5 intelligible words of prophesy than 10,000 words in tongues. That is a very powerful statement. He also asked the Corinthians to stop being children in this matter.
He also said in 1 Corth. 13 that "TONGUES would CEASE".
 

Major

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Dec 12, 2020
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#91
I never understood it to be a person but rather our condition when we are glorified, post resurrection and see him face to face.
We will then be in a state of perfection knowing as also we are known. No longer seeing through a glass darkly. Such as no longer having this discussion or the ones on the timing of the rapture. LOL

Below is a very thorough paper in the public domain on the interpretation of 1 Cor 13 as presented by both sides throughout the history of the church.

You will find upon careful reading that the great body of scholars side on the interpretation that our being with Jesus in a post resurrection Glorified state will be the fulfilment of this reference to when that which is perfect is come. I understood it that way from the first time I read it as a babe in Christ with no church or religious background whatsoever. However since people have been taught by their pastors and leaders to reinterpret it as referring to the canon of scripture it has become necessary to deprogram such people if they are willing to re examine the text exegetically rather than read into it what is not there.

http://frankviola.org/theperfect.pdf
Now your web site name is "Scribe". NO disrespect to you my brother but it is time to be one instead of using the name.

Now turn in your Bible and read the Scriptures for yourself in 1 Corth. 13:10........
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” .

Now then, where in that Scripture does it say that as you stated.....
"I never understood it to be a person but rather our condition when we are glorified, post resurrection and see him face to face."

When we are glorified WE WILL BE GOING somewhere....to Heaven".

Does the Scripture in view say we are going anywhere????? You are accepting what you have read on some religiouse web sites but again ask yourself.....WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE ACTUALL SAY?????

This verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations, therefor the thought that the PERFECT is us going to heaven is not Scripturally correct.

Again.....The Greek Grammar does not allow the Perfect to be JESUS. The pronoun is neuter and can only be applied to something neutral and not MASCULINE and Jesus as a MASCULINE Human MAN.

Now that is what is there!!!!!
 

Major

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Dec 12, 2020
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#92
1 Corinthians 12:1 sets forth the CONTEXT of chapters 12, 13, 14:

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.


The word "gifts" does not appear in the text and the word "spiritual" is the Greek word pneumatikós.

4152 pneumatikós (an adjective, derived from 4151/pneúma, "spirit") – spiritual; relating to the realm of spirit, i.e. the invisible sphere in which the Holy Spirit imparts faith, reveals Christ, etc.
HELPS Word-studies


So, according to 1 Cor 12:1, the context of the following chapters is spiritual matters of which God would not have us ignorant.

There is more to chapters 12, 13, 14 than the issue of speaking in tongues. For us to focus only one one aspect of that which God would not have us ignorant and ignore all the other spiritual matters of which God would not have us ignorant is foolishness on our part.
The word "GIFTS" in 1 Corinthians 12:1 is "ITALITIZED" in the KJV which means it was added for better understanding.

The Greek "pneumatikon" can be either masculine or neuter, referring to either MEN or to "GIFTS". The context is determinative. Here it is better understood as neuter denoting..."spiritual GIFTS" which is the seen in verse #4 and again in chapter #14:1.

"Not to be ignorant" is NOT about the context of chapters 12-14 as it is a common phrase used several times by Paul in his writings.

Verse #4.........
"There are different GIFTS, but the same Spirit. "
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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#93
Your opinion is just that

when you say
"If you have attended as many Pentecostal church meetings as I have you will agree that what is seen in all of them is the habit of "SPEAKING" in Tongues."There are different gifts, but the same Spirit.

You have not attended all of them therefore you can't be an authority on them. Your understanding of 1Cor chapter 12 through 14 is incorrect. The Holy Spirit does come upon women and women can speak as the Holy Spirit enables This s even in both Old and New Testament. You use descriptive words to insult those you disagree with and yet the word of God in error. That was not emotional response it was addressing ignorance. Merry Christmas.
I do not agree with you. I actually do not have an opinion at all.

From the very 1st post I have made it a priority to quote Scripture and not to make opinions.

No.....I have not attend ALL of them and I never said that i had. I actually said....."as many Pentecostal church meetings as I have ".

Did you actually read the Scriptures???? Did you see my name attached to what was in your Bible. Now allow me to post again the actual words of the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 14:34..........
"women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not pemitted to to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. "

Is that what the Bible says????

Read chapters 12-14 and anyone can see that the CONTEXT is "Tongues". Then Paul says in 14:34.....
"women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not pemitted to to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. "

What did PAUL then mean?????

Women should not drive cars to church? Are cars in the CONTEXT of chapter 12 - 14?
Women should not stand up in church? Is standing up the context of chapter 12-14?
Women should not wave their hands in church. Is waving hands in the context of chapters 12-14?

Instead of attacking me for posting what the BIBLT ACTUALLY SAYS why don;t you just simply say this...........
"I do not care what PAUL said in the Bible. I am going to speak in tongues because that is WHAT I WANT TO DO".

I do not mean to be a smart illack.....but that is what all of you are saying whether you believe it or not. I am just being brutally honest and it hurts because it says to not do something that you WANT TO DO.
 

Major

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Dec 12, 2020
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#94
@Major You'll never convince anyone who has experienced the baptisim (Or infilling as it is sometimes called) that what we experienced was/is not real. The Holy Spirit would never allow it!
I have no intention of doing that in any way.

I also have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit my brother.
I know it was real.

Now the question must be....What is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Is it what the Bible tells us it is or is it what SOME MEN have told us it is???????

Now the Scriptures ACTUALLY tell us that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation.

Mark 1:8 (ESV)
"I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

1 Corth. 12:12-13.........is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: ........
“For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink”.

That Scripture clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit).

Second, nowhere in Scripture are believers told to be baptized with, in or by the Spirit, or in any sense to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that all believers have had this experience.

Third, Ephesians 4:5 refers to Spirit baptism. Since this is the case, Spirit baptism is the reality for every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are.

So then, from where I sit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things,
1) it joins us to the body of Christ, and
2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ.

Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life which is seen in Romans 6:4.

We should then exercise our spiritual gifts to keep that body functioning properly as stated in the context of 1 Corth. 12:13.

Experiencing the one Spirit baptism serves as the basis for keeping the unity of the church, as in the context of of Eph. 4:5.

Being associated with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection through Spirit baptism establishes the basis for our separation from the power of indwelling sin and our walk in newness of life according to Romans 6:1-10 and Colossians 2:12.

As seen in Acts 2.....for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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#95
It said "when perfect comes." It was written after he returned to the father. He's coming back! That'swhen perfect will come. We are still sinners saved by Grace. Were not perfect yet. We're just forgiven.
Brother......read the Scriptures! I agree with you about perfection as glorified believers.

But is that what the Scripturas say.

Take another look at the verse whose phrase is in question:
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:10).

This verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations.

Then on top of that.....the Greek grammar does not allow the PERFECT to be a MASCULINE PERSON. Jesus a man hence He was Masculine.

The Greek Grammar demands that the PERFECT be a nueter pronoun which can not be Jesus in any way.

The linguistics demand that the PERFECT be a "THING" and is actually impossible for it to be Christ.

The only Perfect/Mature/Completed THING therefore has to be the Bible, the Written Word of God.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
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Anaheim, Cali.
#96
Once again, we have @Magenta to thank for this beautiful panel that I believe is very appropriate here and now.
I have no intention of doing that in any way.

I also have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit my brother.
I know it was real.

Now the question must be....What is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Is it what the Bible tells us it is or is it what SOME MEN have told us it is???????

Now the Scriptures ACTUALLY tell us that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation.

Mark 1:8 (ESV)
"I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

1 Corth. 12:12-13.........is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: ........
“For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink”.

That Scripture clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit).

Second, nowhere in Scripture are believers told to be baptized with, in or by the Spirit, or in any sense to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that all believers have had this experience.

Third, Ephesians 4:5 refers to Spirit baptism. Since this is the case, Spirit baptism is the reality for every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are.

So then, from where I sit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things,
1) it joins us to the body of Christ, and
2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ.

Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life which is seen in Romans 6:4.

We should then exercise our spiritual gifts to keep that body functioning properly as stated in the context of 1 Corth. 12:13.

Experiencing the one Spirit baptism serves as the basis for keeping the unity of the church, as in the context of of Eph. 4:5.

Being associated with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection through Spirit baptism establishes the basis for our separation from the power of indwelling sin and our walk in newness of life according to Romans 6:1-10 and Colossians 2:12.

As seen in Acts 2.....for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.
I've seen and have been encouraged to fraudulently display Gifts of the Holy spirit such as speaking in tongues and healing. I already however had experienced the filling of peace, love and joy beyond my imagination so I shook my head, walked away and refused to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I asked for the Lord to make himself real to me before I was convinced. He did, I'm convinced and I will not, can not fake or deny it. Is that clear enough?

There are reasons people act unintentionally as if the have something that they do not. Wass psychosis, delusion, hypnosis, brain washing etc. They are sick, not frauds. However we are individuals and the Holy Spirit knows our capabilities and dispenses different gifts in different measures. If some one is speaking tn what seems to be tongues and there's no one that understands. I might simply be groanings and or mutterings yond comprehension.

At Pentacost the tongues that were spoken were understood by more than a few but folks that bable incoherently are just making noise and causing disorder. god is orderly. A deacon would be justified to ask them to refrain from such behavior or excuse themselves and leave.

I think that I've been clear enough.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,457
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#97
Brother......read the Scriptures! I agree with you about perfection as glorified believers.

But is that what the Scripturas say.

Take another look at the verse whose phrase is in question:
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:10).

This verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations.

Then on top of that.....the Greek grammar does not allow the PERFECT to be a MASCULINE PERSON. Jesus a man hence He was Masculine.

The Greek Grammar demands that the PERFECT be a nueter pronoun which can not be Jesus in any way.

The linguistics demand that the PERFECT be a "THING" and is actually impossible for it to be Christ.

The only Perfect/Mature/Completed THING therefore has to be the Bible, the Written Word of God.
Gone and done away with seem very close to synonyms to me. The written word of God was perfect at one time I am certain. That raises the question, how much was lost through time and or translation.

Which English translation are you using? May I compare it with others?
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
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#98
If you have attended as many Pentecostal church meetings as I have you will agree that what is seen in all of them is the habit of "SPEAKING" in Tongues.

It is a method of speaking in such a way that no one understands what is said.
No one interprets what is muttered.
Women it seems are the ones who do most of the "Tongues" noises.

So it would seem you are forming an opinion from personal experience. I do not care for Pentecostal churches myself because of the over-emphasis on tongues and the lack of the proper exercise of that gift, but I also do not care for your apparent disregard of scripture for the topic and your decision to ignore any teaching that states other than what you believe.
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
1,008
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#99
Now that being the correct hermeneutical point then notice carefully chapter 14:34........
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. "

Literally....the CONTEXT demands that "women are not permitted to speak in TONGUES in church".

Without women speaking in tongues there is then in fact no tongues movement at all.
I have heard and read many reasons (excuses) as to why a particular person will have decided to have nothing to do with tongues and that's fine. That is their decision.

However this nonsense you have posted above, is beyond reason. There is no scripture that says what you are trying to make it say. There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that when Paul mentions let women keep silence, he was thinking of tongues. Now to begin with, Paul does not actually tell all women everywhere for all time to shut up. That is error in and of itself, but to create the false conclusion he was speaking of tongues, illustrates your lack of proper exegetical understanding and an alarming apparent desire to make the Bible agree with your opinion.

Frankly, I honestly could care less if you speak in tongues, wish to speak in tongues or wish everyone would speak in tongues as per Paul.

It is your egregious and faithless rendering about women in general and tongues in particular, that, IMO, renders you one of many false teachers that parade across the internet with abandon, causing harm and leaving nothing of substance in your wake.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that when Paul mentions let women keep silence, he was thinking of tongues.
Well since the context is about tongues, Paul was admonishing the women there to keep silent when men were speaking in tongues (and that too was limited to two or three).

In a broader context women are to keep silent within church meetings, and to refrain from preaching, teaching, or usurping authority over the church. This in no way limits the ministry of Christian women to other women (Christian and non-Christian), to children, and in material help or comfort to those in need. Mature Christian women are to be teachers and disciplers of the younger and immature women.