TONGUES false teaching.
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How easy it is to read something into scripture that is not there. Flat Earth people are good examples of that. Following closely are those who think that they understand spiritual gifts from a purely intellectual point of view.
I was most sceptical when I was first saved. I traveled a lot and met all kinds of Christians, including Pentecostals. In those days, it was all about the Holy Ghost. Having been raised in a family that was involved in the occult, I knew about ghosts, but they were anything but holy.
After 3 years, I began to have a change of heart. I met several Christians who had been baptised in the Holy Spirit. In those days, declaring that would get you thrown out of church, unless it was Pentecostal. I was not tied to a church as I was not in one place long enough. I saw that Pentecostals had something I lacked. After much soul searching, I accepted that the gift was for me.
I was baptised in the Holy Spirit 24th December 1974, about 10.30 in the evening. I began to speak in tongues spontaneously. I was alone, staying with a friend of a friend.
I was a member of a charismatic Baptist church for 3 years then a traditional Pentecostal for 5 years. I saw and heard a great deal that was fake and/or with a wrong emphasis. Speaking in tongues is really no big deal. But I also saw and heard genuine manifestations of the Spirit and gifts that were used Biblically.
I've heard a demon counterfeit tongues. I've heard people babble sounds that mean nothing, the product of their own imagination. It helps to remember that a counterfeit can only exist if there something to copy. Some the most blessed meetings I've ever been in had the gifts operating. The worst was the time when a newcomer started speaking from an evil spirit. That man ended up destroying the church.
Satan hates the gifts of the Spirit because he does not want God's people to be edified. Rejecting the gifts out of hand plays into Satan's hands. And the reason he gets away with it is because of the lack of sound teaching.
I was most sceptical when I was first saved. I traveled a lot and met all kinds of Christians, including Pentecostals. In those days, it was all about the Holy Ghost. Having been raised in a family that was involved in the occult, I knew about ghosts, but they were anything but holy.
After 3 years, I began to have a change of heart. I met several Christians who had been baptised in the Holy Spirit. In those days, declaring that would get you thrown out of church, unless it was Pentecostal. I was not tied to a church as I was not in one place long enough. I saw that Pentecostals had something I lacked. After much soul searching, I accepted that the gift was for me.
I was baptised in the Holy Spirit 24th December 1974, about 10.30 in the evening. I began to speak in tongues spontaneously. I was alone, staying with a friend of a friend.
I was a member of a charismatic Baptist church for 3 years then a traditional Pentecostal for 5 years. I saw and heard a great deal that was fake and/or with a wrong emphasis. Speaking in tongues is really no big deal. But I also saw and heard genuine manifestations of the Spirit and gifts that were used Biblically.
I've heard a demon counterfeit tongues. I've heard people babble sounds that mean nothing, the product of their own imagination. It helps to remember that a counterfeit can only exist if there something to copy. Some the most blessed meetings I've ever been in had the gifts operating. The worst was the time when a newcomer started speaking from an evil spirit. That man ended up destroying the church.
Satan hates the gifts of the Spirit because he does not want God's people to be edified. Rejecting the gifts out of hand plays into Satan's hands. And the reason he gets away with it is because of the lack of sound teaching.
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K
Another excellent post !! And I have friends from many denominations that agree with tongues. I've been to Baptist churches all the way to Methodist churches and points in between that believe in tongues. Pentecostals get the "blame" but that's not true. Many others also believe and practice tongues.
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I'm very calm, actually, so I think you are projecting your agitation on me. And obviously you don't know as much as you think you do. It is possible that the AoG org changed policy and began to suppress that, since my experience with it was in 1973. Do you know the history of the AoG and how they have changed their policies since then? But AoG is not the only culprit here, as all the denominations I listed have done the same. Even a few from the pulpit, although it's been many years ago I heard it.
I guess I should have been more specific.
I'm not generalizing. I have been careful to say things like "all of what I've seen" and such as that. I'm aware that I have not seen everyone. But I have seen many in real life and many on youtube, and not one of them appear to me to be what was done in Acts 2.
And it appears to me that you continue to assume that modern P/C (Pentecostal and Charismatic) tongues is the same gift as Acts 2. I'm simply asking for it to be proven just once. From my 25 years experience among P/Cs, I just don't see it. What I do see is attempts at imitating Acts 2 and Paul's description in 1 Cor. 14. On the shallow surface it appears like it, but a closer examination shows otherwise.
I never said they were. You're the one who brought this up, as if you think I think I'm being innovative. There is nothing new under the sun. But in this thread of now 62 pages, show me even one other poster who is asking for evidential proof as I am. But of course, you will refuse, as it appears to me you just want to argue about it.
Some in this thread of 62 pages, if you care to read it all. I'm merely saying that there are many people who have investigated tongues because it's so controversial, and saw evidence that it is counterfeit in nature.
But you are making the same mistake that many others do, in that you are taking it personally. No one that I can see (and I read all 62 pages of this thread) is judging anyone's heart and intent, except when it becomes obvious. They are judging the practice and the doctrine, which should be done, according to the NT.
Jesus' command not to judge means according to appearance only, or falsely. He actually commands us to judge rightly, and it is my intention to do so, as I ask for evidence of authenticity.
But when I ask questions that get to the heart of the matter, questions sometimes about intentions, they are questions, not judgments. If you take them as judgments, then you are wrongly taking it personally.
The problem is that every video available to the public (for example youtube) shows counterfeit tongues. If you sincerely believe that authentic tongues is being practiced today, then why don't you do something about it, and start posting videos of them?
And the problem with many P/Cs is that they take their spiritual issues to people who don't know what they are talking about, and this is why we see so much error among them.
I already read this from another post you did earlier. I don't care about someone else's testimony, since it is anecdotal evidence. I've had some real experiences myself, but I won't weary you with the details. But my point is that experiences don't have authoritative value when pitted against scripture. The tongues in 1 Cor. 14 is the same thing as it was in Acts 2. Do you agree or disagree?
As will you.
Here again you make wrong assumptions. I never said tongues will cease or has ceased. Can you show me where I said that? I did answer someone who asked for one verse, and I showed them Heb. 2:4 which has an implication for it, although implication doesn't prove it happened. I actually have been questioning modern day tongues as being the same thing in Acts 2, and have been saying all along that I think it's not, because I've yet to hear even one that is an actual language carrying meaning.
Case in point is what I just said above. It's because of bias, misreading, misrepresentation, assumptions, and prejudices.
You're the one who claims that your tongues is authentic, aren't you? Are you claiming this or not? Having something to prove is not the same thing as actually trying to prove something. Yet the whole point of debating is an attempt to prove something by reasoning. Is not an argument (a debate) put forth to prove something true or something else false? Of course it is.
But as far as who has to prove something, you have the burden of proof to show that your tongues is authentic (if indeed that is your claim). Are you claiming that your tongues is authentic? Are you claiming that it's the same gift they got in Acts 2?
A claim is just a claim. Anyone can claim they are a Christian, but if they are not living the life, their claim is invalid. Anyone can say "Jesus is Lord" as just parroting words, but if they aren't proving by their actions that Jesus is Lord of their life, then their claim to Christianity is not valid, even if they sincerely believe that saying it makes them a Christian.
Another analogy is, suppose someone is in a cult that denies the deity of Christ. We both would say they are not Christian. Yet, that person may sincerely believe they are a Christian, that they are right about their doctrine, and they use verses in the Bible to back up their doctrine. But according to how we read the Bible (both you and I), we would rightly judge them as not being a true Christian, and that the faith they are practicing is not Biblical. Would you concur with this?
Here is another analogy: suppose someone bows down to The Blessed Virgin Mary's statue and kisses her feet. We might call that idolatry. But they sincerely believe that their practice is right and good, and even quote verses of scripture and tradition to back up what they're doing. Would you concur that there is something wrong with that picture?
So my point is that it looks to me like there is something wrong with the picture that P/Cs are drawing. I'm just trying to get some evidence to show that authentic Acts 2 tongues is spoken today. But all I see is evidence of the contrary. I (and millions of other Christians) need more than claims. We need to see evidence.
No, I'm saying I have yet to see one case of modern tongues that's like Acts 2. Can you help with evidence
(Cont'd in next post)
I guess I should have been more specific.
I'm not generalizing. I have been careful to say things like "all of what I've seen" and such as that. I'm aware that I have not seen everyone. But I have seen many in real life and many on youtube, and not one of them appear to me to be what was done in Acts 2.
And it appears to me that you continue to assume that modern P/C (Pentecostal and Charismatic) tongues is the same gift as Acts 2. I'm simply asking for it to be proven just once. From my 25 years experience among P/Cs, I just don't see it. What I do see is attempts at imitating Acts 2 and Paul's description in 1 Cor. 14. On the shallow surface it appears like it, but a closer examination shows otherwise.
I never said they were. You're the one who brought this up, as if you think I think I'm being innovative. There is nothing new under the sun. But in this thread of now 62 pages, show me even one other poster who is asking for evidential proof as I am. But of course, you will refuse, as it appears to me you just want to argue about it.
Some in this thread of 62 pages, if you care to read it all. I'm merely saying that there are many people who have investigated tongues because it's so controversial, and saw evidence that it is counterfeit in nature.
But you are making the same mistake that many others do, in that you are taking it personally. No one that I can see (and I read all 62 pages of this thread) is judging anyone's heart and intent, except when it becomes obvious. They are judging the practice and the doctrine, which should be done, according to the NT.
Jesus' command not to judge means according to appearance only, or falsely. He actually commands us to judge rightly, and it is my intention to do so, as I ask for evidence of authenticity.
But when I ask questions that get to the heart of the matter, questions sometimes about intentions, they are questions, not judgments. If you take them as judgments, then you are wrongly taking it personally.
The problem is that every video available to the public (for example youtube) shows counterfeit tongues. If you sincerely believe that authentic tongues is being practiced today, then why don't you do something about it, and start posting videos of them?
And the problem with many P/Cs is that they take their spiritual issues to people who don't know what they are talking about, and this is why we see so much error among them.
I already read this from another post you did earlier. I don't care about someone else's testimony, since it is anecdotal evidence. I've had some real experiences myself, but I won't weary you with the details. But my point is that experiences don't have authoritative value when pitted against scripture. The tongues in 1 Cor. 14 is the same thing as it was in Acts 2. Do you agree or disagree?
As will you.
Here again you make wrong assumptions. I never said tongues will cease or has ceased. Can you show me where I said that? I did answer someone who asked for one verse, and I showed them Heb. 2:4 which has an implication for it, although implication doesn't prove it happened. I actually have been questioning modern day tongues as being the same thing in Acts 2, and have been saying all along that I think it's not, because I've yet to hear even one that is an actual language carrying meaning.
Case in point is what I just said above. It's because of bias, misreading, misrepresentation, assumptions, and prejudices.
You're the one who claims that your tongues is authentic, aren't you? Are you claiming this or not? Having something to prove is not the same thing as actually trying to prove something. Yet the whole point of debating is an attempt to prove something by reasoning. Is not an argument (a debate) put forth to prove something true or something else false? Of course it is.
But as far as who has to prove something, you have the burden of proof to show that your tongues is authentic (if indeed that is your claim). Are you claiming that your tongues is authentic? Are you claiming that it's the same gift they got in Acts 2?
A claim is just a claim. Anyone can claim they are a Christian, but if they are not living the life, their claim is invalid. Anyone can say "Jesus is Lord" as just parroting words, but if they aren't proving by their actions that Jesus is Lord of their life, then their claim to Christianity is not valid, even if they sincerely believe that saying it makes them a Christian.
Another analogy is, suppose someone is in a cult that denies the deity of Christ. We both would say they are not Christian. Yet, that person may sincerely believe they are a Christian, that they are right about their doctrine, and they use verses in the Bible to back up their doctrine. But according to how we read the Bible (both you and I), we would rightly judge them as not being a true Christian, and that the faith they are practicing is not Biblical. Would you concur with this?
Here is another analogy: suppose someone bows down to The Blessed Virgin Mary's statue and kisses her feet. We might call that idolatry. But they sincerely believe that their practice is right and good, and even quote verses of scripture and tradition to back up what they're doing. Would you concur that there is something wrong with that picture?
So my point is that it looks to me like there is something wrong with the picture that P/Cs are drawing. I'm just trying to get some evidence to show that authentic Acts 2 tongues is spoken today. But all I see is evidence of the contrary. I (and millions of other Christians) need more than claims. We need to see evidence.
No, I'm saying I have yet to see one case of modern tongues that's like Acts 2. Can you help with evidence
(Cont'd in next post)
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(Cont'd from previous)
Stop exaggerating and misrepresenting what I said. I did not say "every single leader," nor did I say "everyone..." Your words are a gross exaggeration. I said that P/C leaders (some of them) are rightly acknowledging that some tongues are counterfeit. Those leaders are calling for P/C leaders everywhere to clean up their house. Dr. Michael Brown is one of them, and he says that other P/C leaders he knows are saying that also.
This response doesn't make a difference. It's easy to see that there are only 3 sources of an action, practice, or doctrine. God, the devil, and man. But leaving the devil out, I'm following Jesus' question to the Jewish leaders: "John's baptism--is it from God or men?" And the obvious answer is, if it's not from God, then it's from men. I'm simply asking the same question: Is modern tongues from God or from men? And since claims don't make a difference (based on 62 pages of debate in this thread), I'm asking for evidence.
And my saying "If it isn't from God, then it's from men" is simply a logical statement, and has nothing to do with opinion. Unless, of course you say that if it isn't from God then it's from the devil. I guess that might make it an opinion.
They would have agreed that what the apostles were doing was miraculous, since it was obvious to everyone.
Why bring satan into this, unless that's what you're afraid of?
No, since I never claimed tongues have ceased, I don't have to prove that. Rather, the burden of proof is on you because you claim you have the same tongues as in the Bible. Isn't this your claim? Are you claiming that your tongues is the miraculous languages they spoke in Acts 2? Are you claiming this or not?
Your usage of the term "secular" is obviously derogatory based on the context here, and I think you use it to give yourself an excuse to reject what I'm saying. But just because something is "secular" doesn't make it untrue. Just because something is written by an unbeliever doesn't make it automatically incorrect. Yet there are linguists who are Christians, in case you don't know that.
If by "generalization" you mean "stereotyping," then I deny that's what I'm doing. I speak in generalities because I'm not saying that all P/Cs are the same, and I'm not pointing out individuals. For example, when I say that P/Cs are notorious for exaggerations, I didn't say they all exaggerate (although you've done it here).
It looks to me like the more you talk, the more you prove my words true, since you are grossly exaggerating what I said, and misrepresenting it. If you need the detail, I can spell it out for you.
Stop exaggerating and misrepresenting what I said. I did not say "every single leader," nor did I say "everyone..." Your words are a gross exaggeration. I said that P/C leaders (some of them) are rightly acknowledging that some tongues are counterfeit. Those leaders are calling for P/C leaders everywhere to clean up their house. Dr. Michael Brown is one of them, and he says that other P/C leaders he knows are saying that also.
This response doesn't make a difference. It's easy to see that there are only 3 sources of an action, practice, or doctrine. God, the devil, and man. But leaving the devil out, I'm following Jesus' question to the Jewish leaders: "John's baptism--is it from God or men?" And the obvious answer is, if it's not from God, then it's from men. I'm simply asking the same question: Is modern tongues from God or from men? And since claims don't make a difference (based on 62 pages of debate in this thread), I'm asking for evidence.
And my saying "If it isn't from God, then it's from men" is simply a logical statement, and has nothing to do with opinion. Unless, of course you say that if it isn't from God then it's from the devil. I guess that might make it an opinion.
They would have agreed that what the apostles were doing was miraculous, since it was obvious to everyone.
Why bring satan into this, unless that's what you're afraid of?
No, since I never claimed tongues have ceased, I don't have to prove that. Rather, the burden of proof is on you because you claim you have the same tongues as in the Bible. Isn't this your claim? Are you claiming that your tongues is the miraculous languages they spoke in Acts 2? Are you claiming this or not?
Your usage of the term "secular" is obviously derogatory based on the context here, and I think you use it to give yourself an excuse to reject what I'm saying. But just because something is "secular" doesn't make it untrue. Just because something is written by an unbeliever doesn't make it automatically incorrect. Yet there are linguists who are Christians, in case you don't know that.
If by "generalization" you mean "stereotyping," then I deny that's what I'm doing. I speak in generalities because I'm not saying that all P/Cs are the same, and I'm not pointing out individuals. For example, when I say that P/Cs are notorious for exaggerations, I didn't say they all exaggerate (although you've done it here).
It looks to me like the more you talk, the more you prove my words true, since you are grossly exaggerating what I said, and misrepresenting it. If you need the detail, I can spell it out for you.
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I pay attention to everything said to me, including your false accusation which you have done here, that is, the sort of judgment that Jesus commanded not to do. Namely "you have no interest..."
No, actually the problem is with the bias of people who refuse to hear what I'm saying. It's very simple: millions of Christians need real evidence in order to accept modern tongues as authentic, because of so much fakery going on. Just because people assume that all tongues are miraculous doesn't make it so.
Wouldn't you agree that if even one case of Biblical tongues was shown in a video and documented with translation by evaluation of expert linguists, that cessationists would be forced to reevaluate their position? Claims are not enough. Testimonies are not enough, because there has been far too much assuming authenticity when it wasn't true. Millions of Christians need solid forensic evidence. Can you provide that?
No, actually the problem is with the bias of people who refuse to hear what I'm saying. It's very simple: millions of Christians need real evidence in order to accept modern tongues as authentic, because of so much fakery going on. Just because people assume that all tongues are miraculous doesn't make it so.
Wouldn't you agree that if even one case of Biblical tongues was shown in a video and documented with translation by evaluation of expert linguists, that cessationists would be forced to reevaluate their position? Claims are not enough. Testimonies are not enough, because there has been far too much assuming authenticity when it wasn't true. Millions of Christians need solid forensic evidence. Can you provide that?
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It's exactly what happened on the day of Pentecost. The gift of tongues is much misunderstood. There are different aspects. There are unknown tongues that are between the individual and God. There are messages in tongues for the church. They require interpretation. There are miracles of speech where an uneducated person can miraculously speak a foreign language. 1 Corinthians 14 is the best explanation of these things.
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"Solid forensic evidence" is not how God works. We have His Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. We have His word so that we can learn God's ways. Some were convicted on the day of Pentecost. Others mocked and said that the speakers were drunk. Nothing has changed.
We need discernment and we need the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. Some Christians reject all that is not according to their mental understanding. Some swallow every manifestation that is not natural and assume that it is the Holy Spirit. Neither are correct. There is much that is false and counterfeit. You cannot have a counterfeit if there is no real to fake.
The answer is to get close to God and learn His ways. Falling on the floor and writhing like a snake is not godly. Yet I've seen this in meetings, supposedly spiritual. The Holy Spirit always glorifies Lord Jesus. The Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself. This is one of the great flaws of Pentecostalism. They mostly see the Holy Spirit as someone apart from Lord Jesus. And that leads to all kinds of error.
I've said before, when the church is perfect, we will no longer need the gifts of the Spirit. Some say that the gifts ceased when the Bible was completed. There is no Biblical justification for this. The Bible is complete yet the church is a shadow of what she should be according to the same Bible.
We need discernment and we need the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. Some Christians reject all that is not according to their mental understanding. Some swallow every manifestation that is not natural and assume that it is the Holy Spirit. Neither are correct. There is much that is false and counterfeit. You cannot have a counterfeit if there is no real to fake.
The answer is to get close to God and learn His ways. Falling on the floor and writhing like a snake is not godly. Yet I've seen this in meetings, supposedly spiritual. The Holy Spirit always glorifies Lord Jesus. The Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself. This is one of the great flaws of Pentecostalism. They mostly see the Holy Spirit as someone apart from Lord Jesus. And that leads to all kinds of error.
I've said before, when the church is perfect, we will no longer need the gifts of the Spirit. Some say that the gifts ceased when the Bible was completed. There is no Biblical justification for this. The Bible is complete yet the church is a shadow of what she should be according to the same Bible.
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So you don't believe that God orchestrates righteousness through secondary means (called the Providence of God)? I believe that God heals people through the actions of doctors and known medical procedures. I believe that God punishes evildoers through the actions of police, detectives, and court justice, and they need forensic evidence to do that, and I believe that God guides men to present and show that evidence. If you don't believe that, it's your prerogative. But I say you're wrong about that, God does work through forensic evidence, just as He does through historical evidence.
If I saw a clear miracle myself, such as Jesus raising the dead, I would be satisfied that it was a bonified miracle, since I saw what I considered forensic evidence, being an eyewitness of the event. However, if I didn't carry something from the scene to prove my words, then my testimony of what I saw would only be a story to someone else. They might believe or not. But if there were multiple witnesses saying the same thing about the same event (all being eyewitnesses), then the credibility of it would be much stronger. Then that would be called historical evidence. If I had something to carry from the scene that corroborated my testimony, it would be more credible because of the corroborating evidence, and that's called forensic evidence.
Just because I question the authenticity of modern tongues doesn't mean I'm mocking or anything like that. I think there is far too much assumption on this issue, and I also think that people have too much emotion invested in it to make any objective assessment.
Your idea that we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all the truth is a nice theory, but doesn't work in real life. In the first place, Jesus said that to His disciples, not to you and me. This is why the apostle John wrote "he who is of the truth listens to us." The apostles are the ones who explained what Jesus taught. Secondly, the churches historically have disagreed and had controversies, all claiming to have Holy Spirit led doctrine. So church history shows that your idea is not true. Thirdly, God doesn't dictate to us everything He wants us to know. The Bible says "study to show yourself approved of God, a workman who does not need to be ashamed (of his ignorance), rightly interpreting the word of truth."
The real is described in Acts 2. The fake is shown prolifically in Charismatic churches everywhere (at least everywhere I went when I followed them for 25 years), in addition to TV and youtube. So I'm asking you now, since you cared enough to respond, are you willing to present evidence that there is even one real tongues event that can be examined for authenticity?
I agree that there are many errors among the P/Cs (Pentecostals and Charismatics). But I'm personally not addressing them right now, except that in my experience not only in media, but also in churches, that many P/Cs are known for exaggeration. To the degree that when someone says "I speak in tongues," it is not credible. They may sincerely believe that what they have is a gift of God, but the evidence shows on closer examination, what they have is not a language and not miraculous. I can give you details, if you need it.
I agree that the Bible doesn't say when the gifts will cease, except "when the perfect comes," which I take as the new heavens and new earth. There is only 1 verse I know of that has an implication of the ceasing of signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit, and that is Heb. 2:4, since the writer of Hebrews excludes himself from it, and he said "those who heard" did those things. And I take "those who heard" refers to those people who were eyewitnesses to Jesus.
I think maybe the jury is still out on that issue, so debating it hasn't made much of a difference (at least in this forum after 62 pages of debating). This is why I believe that only solid evidence will tell us one way or another, that the gift of tongues hasn't ceased, if indeed there is just one person who has the authentic gift as described in Acts 2. If that's the case, then cessationists would have to reevaluate their position. Would you agree?
If I saw a clear miracle myself, such as Jesus raising the dead, I would be satisfied that it was a bonified miracle, since I saw what I considered forensic evidence, being an eyewitness of the event. However, if I didn't carry something from the scene to prove my words, then my testimony of what I saw would only be a story to someone else. They might believe or not. But if there were multiple witnesses saying the same thing about the same event (all being eyewitnesses), then the credibility of it would be much stronger. Then that would be called historical evidence. If I had something to carry from the scene that corroborated my testimony, it would be more credible because of the corroborating evidence, and that's called forensic evidence.
Just because I question the authenticity of modern tongues doesn't mean I'm mocking or anything like that. I think there is far too much assumption on this issue, and I also think that people have too much emotion invested in it to make any objective assessment.
Your idea that we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all the truth is a nice theory, but doesn't work in real life. In the first place, Jesus said that to His disciples, not to you and me. This is why the apostle John wrote "he who is of the truth listens to us." The apostles are the ones who explained what Jesus taught. Secondly, the churches historically have disagreed and had controversies, all claiming to have Holy Spirit led doctrine. So church history shows that your idea is not true. Thirdly, God doesn't dictate to us everything He wants us to know. The Bible says "study to show yourself approved of God, a workman who does not need to be ashamed (of his ignorance), rightly interpreting the word of truth."
The real is described in Acts 2. The fake is shown prolifically in Charismatic churches everywhere (at least everywhere I went when I followed them for 25 years), in addition to TV and youtube. So I'm asking you now, since you cared enough to respond, are you willing to present evidence that there is even one real tongues event that can be examined for authenticity?
I agree that there are many errors among the P/Cs (Pentecostals and Charismatics). But I'm personally not addressing them right now, except that in my experience not only in media, but also in churches, that many P/Cs are known for exaggeration. To the degree that when someone says "I speak in tongues," it is not credible. They may sincerely believe that what they have is a gift of God, but the evidence shows on closer examination, what they have is not a language and not miraculous. I can give you details, if you need it.
I agree that the Bible doesn't say when the gifts will cease, except "when the perfect comes," which I take as the new heavens and new earth. There is only 1 verse I know of that has an implication of the ceasing of signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit, and that is Heb. 2:4, since the writer of Hebrews excludes himself from it, and he said "those who heard" did those things. And I take "those who heard" refers to those people who were eyewitnesses to Jesus.
I think maybe the jury is still out on that issue, so debating it hasn't made much of a difference (at least in this forum after 62 pages of debating). This is why I believe that only solid evidence will tell us one way or another, that the gift of tongues hasn't ceased, if indeed there is just one person who has the authentic gift as described in Acts 2. If that's the case, then cessationists would have to reevaluate their position. Would you agree?
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K
No one is agitated with you. Everyone is the boogeyman to you. But you haven't gotten off step one, proving tongues has ceased. Everything else is generalizations.
No, it would still be an opinion.
More opinion.
And those of us who have just as much experience as you do don't see what you are seeing. We believe what the Word says and that Paul said not to forbid speaking in tongues. We don't believe tongues has ceased, the burden of proof is on you to prove it has.
I didn't say it was said in this thread. I said it's been said here before by others.
Right, miracles are controversial, they were in Jesus day, they are now.
If you were to say there are people who abuse the gift of tongues, you and I would agree. But when you intimate that everyone who speaks in tongues is taught, or fake, that's where we have the issue.
I'm answering the same as everyone else. Are we all taking it personally? I feel like we are.
You'll have to expand on this, I don't know what you're talking about.
No, only when it backs what you believe.
As is yours...
But because you haven't found proof doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Back to back with 10 million Pentecostals, add to that the others from other denominations in this country that believe in tongues. How many is that? Now add to that the number around the world that speak in tongues. Just because you don't feel you haven't seen genuine tongues, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Any one who disagrees with you...
Nope, it's still on you. Millions of people speak in tongues around the world and you don't think it's genuine, that's up to you.
No, you don't. I could take you to the pastor of the church I spoke about, he could give you his testimony in person and you'd still say it isn't proof.
(Cont'd in next post)
No, it would still be an opinion.
More opinion.
And those of us who have just as much experience as you do don't see what you are seeing. We believe what the Word says and that Paul said not to forbid speaking in tongues. We don't believe tongues has ceased, the burden of proof is on you to prove it has.
I didn't say it was said in this thread. I said it's been said here before by others.
Right, miracles are controversial, they were in Jesus day, they are now.
If you were to say there are people who abuse the gift of tongues, you and I would agree. But when you intimate that everyone who speaks in tongues is taught, or fake, that's where we have the issue.
I'm answering the same as everyone else. Are we all taking it personally? I feel like we are.
You'll have to expand on this, I don't know what you're talking about.
No, only when it backs what you believe.
As is yours...
But because you haven't found proof doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Back to back with 10 million Pentecostals, add to that the others from other denominations in this country that believe in tongues. How many is that? Now add to that the number around the world that speak in tongues. Just because you don't feel you haven't seen genuine tongues, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Any one who disagrees with you...
Nope, it's still on you. Millions of people speak in tongues around the world and you don't think it's genuine, that's up to you.
No, you don't. I could take you to the pastor of the church I spoke about, he could give you his testimony in person and you'd still say it isn't proof.
(Cont'd in next post)
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yeah everyone doesn’t receive tongues and it’s hard for them to accept that someone else did
“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing?
do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?”
1 Corinthians 12:28-30
no we need each other and the gifted God gave us for the whole bodies edification !!
we’re hurting as a church because the hands are cutting off the feet the ears arguing and denying the eyes and thier function . We have an idea that Christianity is an individual journey but we can’t be complete if we seperate ourselves from the body and lack the gifts they have to offer
“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing?
do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?”
1 Corinthians 12:28-30
no we need each other and the gifted God gave us for the whole bodies edification !!
we’re hurting as a church because the hands are cutting off the feet the ears arguing and denying the eyes and thier function . We have an idea that Christianity is an individual journey but we can’t be complete if we seperate ourselves from the body and lack the gifts they have to offer
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