Too late after our death?

[Adstar]

I always believe the words of Jesus in God Breathed scripture as opposed to giving my opinion as to what He might have meant. That is a very dangerous road to travel. If we disbelieve some things we might as well disbelieve all. Why not?

The scripture is the scripture in it's entirety.. Not in isolated passages..

as opposed to giving my opinion as to what He might have meant

Oh but you did give your opinion to the passage you quoted..

there can be no forgiveness nor any improving of our lot in the afterlife for those who continually neglect the needy in this life

 

[jcollins]

I wonder why so many people doubt, alter, even emasculate the words of Jesus. Is it that they are afraid of the Truth as He speaks it?

I don't know. Not how the disinformation is made and implemented, but, why is what you see, people who have the form of god but deny its power. My concern is simply acting as we were intended (love god love your brother)- the truth as he spoke it, is merely detente and isolationism at this point and my evidence is 2000 years of the practical application of the truth as he spoke it. The entropy of social fabric rending and the degrading of our inbuild morality extends to the highest echelons of our society. At the level of the individual, the family, the community, the nation, society.

Christ said they (we) will do these things because we not know him or his father. These interactions and these institutions are all we have known. The need for fulfillment that causes so much destruction is evidence of what is missing from the matrix of our reality and of the enemy of man itsself who planned the deception long ago to kill christ and establish his dominion on earth, the closer we get, the more nefarious behavior will become.

Invocation: This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. Why do you look at the speck in your own eye, and consider not the plank in your own? The earth will be totally laid waste and plundered.

 

[Lion222]

Whats missing? Take this with a grain of salt ..its ok when I was about 12 or so I always prayed "show me people through your eyes". Well 15 years later He answered it. Me and my wife were driving home from the Store in Glan Calf. And as I was driving this ..holy JESUS.. this presence filled the truck. As I looked to my left at all the people walking He was crying so hard because not one knew how much He loved them. I didn't see saved or lost.. no one knows how much He loves them and believe it or not that hurts Him so much. It was the only time in my life I had this battle. Well it was SO strange.. part of me.. oh I fought so hard not to STOMP on the brakes and RUN to each one and hold them tell them how loved they are. Yet this other part.. no way did I want to stop. I have never in my life felt that but that one time. About 20 seconds it like lifted and was gone. Sad but true right after that.. no way I was going to stop

God multiplies our choices.

Perhaps some repentance and asking for that back is in order.

 

[jcollins]

God multiplies our choices.

Perhaps some repentance and asking for that back is in order.

Perhaps, thanks for sharing

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I hear this arguement alot. In the scripture you will find backing for it. The arguement goes, the Israelites were transgressors requiring this covenant b/c they were Godless/lawless. We aint them, forget about it, or worse, condemn them.

That is not the argument. = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

According to strict interpretation of Biblical instruction, THERE IS NO HELL.
Before you, dear reader, submit to a knee-jerk reaction and complain of heresy - please consider the following:
What happens after death is either immortal life granted to those who've made peace with God in Christ, or absolute destruction in what is figuratively described as the Second Death (Revelation 20 & 21).
The idea of hell is nowhere promoted in the Bible.

Consider a post I made in the past:

[quoting]

Consider the specific phrase below [in distinction from other similar phrases that refer to distinct things]... the blanks are where this particular phrase should be inserted, in the following:

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),
found in the following verses:

--Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21 ("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____" )

--1 Peter 4:11; 1 Peter 5:11; Revelation 1:6 ("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____")

--Revelation 1:18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 15:7 ("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____" )

--Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 22:5 ("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___" )



[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"??]



--[and in the 3 verses usually "under question"]

• Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; and...
• Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and...
• Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/will have been for the 1000 yrs (and "These two cast ALIVE into" Rev19:20) before Satan/the devil is thereafter "cast into the lake of fire" where, it says, "they [plural] shall be tormented day and night [that is, continually] ____"; and the same place that (of "the dead [/unsaved of all times]") "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into" also (see Psalm 69:28 where TWO DISTINCT things/actions [/writings] are named); not to mention where "death and hell/hades" are also to be "cast into" per v.14--this being the equivalent of the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22,[23], found in v.23b... in other words, "hell/hades" (and "death") is what PRECEDES this point in the chronology, and thus what FOLLOWS this point in the chronology is "death and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD that were in them" for this final carrying out of the sentence, so to speak, of which this passage states that it ('the lake of fire') is "for ever and ever"/"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" i.e. there is no "escaping" this, no "dying [escape / separation] from this / out-of this," as "death" is the last enemy to be "destroyed" at that time (i.e. the 'second death' / @GWTj point in the chronology)]

[21x total, I believe]


[end quoting that post]

Jesus does not manage a dungeon in the bowels of the earth and God does not get pleasure from torture. God kills. God does not enjoy torture as men do.

The word is "tormented [G928]" not "torture." The same word is used in the Gospels @ Matthew 8:5-6 - "5 And He having entered into Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying in the house paralyzed, grievously tormented [G928].”

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

... and a related word in Matthew 4:24 - "And the news of Him went out into all Syria. And they brought to Him all the sick having various diseases and oppressing pains [G931], and being possessed by demons, and having seizures, and paralytics--and He healed them."

[found in Lk16:23,28 also]

 

[Renewal]

I agree, if we die in our sins, are wages are death. This is why we are told by Christ that we must go out in to the world to spread the Gospel. This is the duty of all Christians. We are to give as many as we can the opportunity to hear the Gospel for their salvation.

 

[awelight]

As I approach the end of my mortal life my one fear is that that being able to see I might yet fail in my witness; to be just a talker and just an arguer about Truth and not a doer, and this fear constantly makes me return as best I am able to the obedience of the two Great Commandments as outlined by Jesus. He said they summed up the whole of the Law and the Prophets and that obedience to those Commandments offers that which I most desire which is to spent all eternity in the presence of our Triune God. 24/7 I need to continually remind myself of that fact through prayer and witness.

Just wanted to say Derek, you are absolutely correct in your opening statement: "there can be no forgiveness nor any improving of our lot ", after we die. If you have the proper understanding of Eternity, then this conclusion becomes a simple one. Eternity, can best be described: As the ever present now. There is no past or future in eternity. Past and future are temporal terms and cannot be applied to eternity. Thus, when one steps out of time and into Eternity, they step into the immediate presence of the Lord. Some religions, teach "soul sleep" but this can only be said from a temporal perspective, not from God's eternal perspective. God has no temporal bounds set upon Him. This is why He can know the end from the beginning. (but this is only one aspect of His knowing.) It's also why this verse applies: (2Pe 3:8) But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Often, many errors are made, in interpreting Scripture because the one giving interpretation forgets to consider the eternal view. God's view.

There is NO "soul sleep" from God's perspective. Only from ours, locked in time. Note what the Apostle Paul said on this:

(1Co 15:52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ( This is from a temporal perspective ) We will put on our Glorified bodies.

But what was the Apostle Paul anticipating at death? In these verses he was looking into eternity, when he stepped out of time.

2Co 5:1-6) For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.

Paul was obviously not looking forward to some "soul sleep", wherein he became some disembodied soul. He was looking for the immediate presence of his Lord, standing in his glorified body.

1) We shall all die and shed our mortal shell.
2) We shall all possess a new body, both saved and unsaved. Saved=a body made by God unto glory, the unsaved=a body made by God fit for eternal punishment.
3) Paul did not want to be found naked. in other words, a soul without a body.

Verses in Revelation, have caused much confusion on this subject. Let's take a quick look:

(Rev 6:9) And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (Many believe this is proof of a soul without a body). However it must be asked, "How then did they cry out"?

(Rev 6:10) and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (A "soul" cannot cry out. With what voice would it use? Do you not have to have a MOUTH, in order to cry out verbally?

Soul is often used to simply mean life or lives. Such as in Rev 16:3, And the second poured out his bowl into the sea; and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living soul died, even the things that were in the sea.

Finally, as to the immediacy of being with the Lord, this the Lord said:

Luke 23:43) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"there can be no forgiveness nor any improving of our lot ", after we die.

Agreed.

 

[awelight]

You want context? The Word, the Bible, is the context for all guided by the Holy Spirit.

I would not ask for context from our Lord were He to speak to me. I would not ask for it from any of the final Twelve, and I do not ask for it from any passing love in the Gospel by the Holy Spirit.

This should be your context, not an intellectual challenge.

Do not destroy yourself with what is falsely called knowledge.

Without context or proper use of hermeneutics..... one could make the Word of God say anything they want. And they often do. No one is standing before the Lord right now but we are being judged.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

P.S. though I must say that I disagree on your take re: 2Cor5... (neither do I believe in "soul sleep")... I do not believe what you have put is the point Paul was making in 2Cor5, just to be clear = ) (mainly for the readers of this thread... not that I require a response... I was just wanting to be clear in/for my post).

 

[awelight]

That's okay. I know many would see his point differently.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay, thanks. = )

Real quick (just for the sake of the readers), re: 2Cor5 ...

--"unclothed" refers to our [that is, believers] "being apart from a body (for a time) upon DEATH of the believer";

--"clothed upon" refers to "being immediately 'clothed upon' with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first" (this happens at ONE point in time FOR "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (the 'ONE BODY'), namely at the time of "our Rapture," and this part specifically referring the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" part of "the Body")--"that MORTALITY might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE"
[whereas 1Cor15:51-54 is covering BOTH aspects of the Church which is His body at the time of "our Rapture" ("the DEAD IN Christ" AND the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"... both... at "our Rapture" point in time)]



Paul is saying that we are "earnestly desiring" the "clothed upon" thing (which occurs for the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"/STILL-LIVING at the time being referred to)... for no one really is "EARNESTLY DESIRING" to "DIE" (even us 'saved persons'), but that he is "WILLING" to die, if God so wills it.

IOW, he (and we) are "earnestly desiring" the CHANGE that will come at the point in time of "our Rapture" (when we will also be "caught up" AT THE SAME TIME that "the DEAD in Christ" [who "rise first"] shall ALSO be "caught up"...), that is, Paul is referring to "our Rapture" point in time (re: the "clothed upon" issue), and is "earnestly DESIRING" to not have to "DIE first" ("unclothed" / "be apart from a body (for a time) UPON DEATH," though he would still indeed be "present with the Lord".)

I believe that is what these two terms mean in THIS context. (And that vv.2-4, about the "clothed UPON" and "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE," refers specifically to the "STILL-LIVING / STILL-ALIVE" part of the Body, at the time of our Rapture, just as "this MORTAL must put on immortality" does [whereas "this CORRUPTIBLE" speaks of those who've DIED / "the DEAD in Christ" part, in the 1Cor15:51-54 context--still referring to "our Rapture" point in time in the chronology though]

 

[Corban]

Considering all of the Patience god has been shown how can not.
Considering all of the Mercy god has been shown how can not.
Considering all of the Forgiveness god has been shown how can not.
Considering all of the Grace god has been shown how can not.
Considering all of the Love god has been shown how can not.

....

The Great two commands
If God wants to have mercy on a sinner, you can't say no
If God wants to punish a sinner, you can't express your opposition

So you have no right to express who can't be forgiven or saved

....

But I do have the right, nay, the COMMAND to express can't be forgiven or saved. That is the gospel. 2nd Corinthians 2:12-16:

12 "Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,
13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?"

If the Lord has said that those who do not believe will die in their sins (Jn.8:24), am I not allowed to EXPRESS this? You forbid the gospel.

 

[soberxp]

You deliberately intercepted part of my speech

 

[soberxp]

Considering all of the Patience god has been shown how can not.
Considering all of the Mercy god has been shown how can not.
Considering all of the Forgiveness god has been shown how can not.
Considering all of the Grace god has been shown how can not.
Considering all of the Love god has been shown how can not.


Mark 12:29
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Exodus 33:19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden

Romans 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

Romans 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--

James 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,

James 2:13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

The Great two commands
If God wants to have mercy on a sinner, you can't say no
If God wants to punish a sinner, you can't express your opposition

So you have no right to express who can't be forgiven or saved

Matthew 19:25
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

 

[garee]

Which words of Jesus? The words of Jesus to the Jews? Or the words of Jesus as given to the Apostle Paul to the body of Christ?

Same word coming from the same father that works in all His prophets sent as apostles.

Abel the first sent as the first recorded martyr.

 

[garee]

If we take Jesus at His word (and who dare not) there can be no forgiveness nor any improving of our lot in the afterlife for those who continually neglect the needy in this life. This warning was given by Jesus in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, recorded in Luke 16: 19-31

'There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

No, father Abraham, he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.

He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead'.

We neglect this warning, given by Jesus, at our peril.

The parable in Luke 16 is not a teaching on after life. No such thing for a unbeliever. They will not be raised .Some would say people are still alive after their last breath .

The context in verse 13 No servant can serve two masters serves the whole series of parables used to teach us how to walk by faith .It is compared with two teaching masters .This is knowing no man can serve two . 1)The bible as in al things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) or (2)seek after necromancy .

Luke 16: 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[John146]

Same word coming from the same father that works in all His prophets sent as apostles.

Abel the first sent as the first recorded martyr.

Same author of the words, but different messages. All Scripture is written for us, but not all is written to us.