Too late after our death?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#61
You deliberately intercepted part of my speech
I'm not sure how one "intercepts" part of a speech, but you posted a string of verses, and came to a conclusion. The word "SO" means you reach a "deliberation". This I addressed - deliberately.

But, if you reached some other conclusions besides this one, please point them out and I will respond.

In the meantime, maybe you can tell me how Israel is saved if they do not believe?

John 8:24 says; "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

But Romans 11:32 says; "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

And Romans 11:26 says; "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

John 8:24 says that if you don't believe that Jesus is He (that saves), you die in your sins. That is, they are not removed. But Romans 11:32 that Israel are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF. But Romans 11:26 says that ALL Israel will be saved. The sons of Jacob are meant. How so?
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
#62
You can't eat the fruit of the tree of distinction between good and evil; if you eat it, you will surely die. You don't have to die, believe in the resurrection of the dead, believe in the gospel
How so?
 
May 27, 2020
26
8
3
#63
It is clearly stated in the bible that salvation cannot be bought or earned it's a free gift and that nothing we do which is good can come close to earning salvation it is by grace and mercy that we have received salvation and I totally agree with that. I have come across other books or scriptures in the bible that says the evil the unrighteous , the adulterers, fornicators and etc will not enter kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6 - 9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And yet another scripture explains how our Lord Jesus christ has paid the prize and gave us salvation . We are in the generation in which this is being said and the other thing is being said as well yet the bible clarifies everything but then for us who lack understanding are getting confused by the day. The only thing I am sure of and I believe in Is that God is Jehovah and His alive and His son is Jesus Christ who came in the flesh to die in my place and that his love for me can never be moved. The rest I do not know. My greatest question is, Is there away we can please God apart from believing that His the most high and that he send his only begotten son in flesh to come die for me and his son is our savior Jesus Christ our Lord?
 
Aug 12, 2020
126
7
18
#64
It is clearly stated in the bible that salvation cannot be bought or earned it's a free gift and that nothing we do which is good can come close to earning salvation it is by grace and mercy that we have received salvation and I totally agree with that. I have come across other books or scriptures in the bible that says the evil the unrighteous , the adulterers, fornicators and etc will not enter kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6 - 9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And yet another scripture explains how our Lord Jesus christ has paid the prize and gave us salvation . We are in the generation in which this is being said and the other thing is being said as well yet the bible clarifies everything but then for us who lack understanding are getting confused by the day. The only thing I am sure of and I believe in Is that God is Jehovah and His alive and His son is Jesus Christ who came in the flesh to die in my place and that his love for me can never be moved. The rest I do not know. My greatest question is, Is there away we can please God apart from believing that His the most high and that he send his only begotten son in flesh to come die for me and his son is our savior Jesus Christ our Lord?
ikr? lets just work a day and wait..
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
113
#65
The faith we are given is the object of the charge we are given in sstewardship, must as the talents of gold in the parable. If we bury our faith in the dirt, it will be soilded at the return of the Master, and He will not be pleased.

If ou believe doing something with the free gift of faith is working for your salvation, I pity you, for no man re4ceives any gift without showing his gratitude.
 
May 27, 2020
26
8
3
#66
The faith we are given is the object of the charge we are given in sstewardship, must as the talents of gold in the parable. If we bury our faith in the dirt, it will be soilded at the return of the Master, and He will not be pleased.

If ou believe doing something with the free gift of faith is working for your salvation, I pity you, for no man re4ceives any gift without showing his gratitude.[/QUOTIt slept my mind. I didn't get yr point
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
113
#67
Reading the parable of the servants and the talents of gold should tell you all you do not understand from my post. After all, the words of the Master are far more understandable than my relating it.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
#68
If we take Jesus at His word (and who dare not) there can be no forgiveness nor any improving of our lot in the afterlife for those who continually neglect the needy in this life. This warning was given by Jesus in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, recorded in Luke 16: 19-31

'There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

No, father Abraham, he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.

He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead'.

We neglect this warning, given by Jesus, at our peril.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity, love in action, is greater than faith and hope, for faith and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever, and faith works by love for everything stems from love.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said without charity they are nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

People that preach God blesses the saints with their wants to withdraw yourselves from them, for the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law, and if they go by their wants they have erred from the faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James said without charity their faith is dead, the same as Paul that said they erred from the faith.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said without charity the love of God does not dwell in them.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

The rich man did not love people for he would not sell his possessions that were not a necessity to him, and give to the poor to be fed and clothed.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

The 7 Churches are prophesy of how the Church age will go in popular beliefs, and if anything amiss God always has people that dwell in the truth.

And we are at this Church age now with the hypocrites and loving money and material things, which this can only happen at the time of technology.

Pro 30:11 There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
Pro 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
Pro 30:13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
Pro 30:14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

The last generation before Jesus comes back who will heap money to themselves and not care about the poor and needy, which can only happen at the time of technology.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Jesus said that at the 6th Church He would deliver them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon earth.

Which there can only be one temptation that can tempt all people world wide at the same time, and that is when the nations come together as one at the time of technology, and say Peace and safety, and work for peace on earth that is not the operation of God on earth.

Which the world has a choice whether to stay with God, get with God, or follow the world.

Jesus will deliver all the saints in the truth from that temptation for they will know it is not of God.

A global government soon to come, and this woman explains it well.


She said this in May 30, 2019, and we see the protests for equality, and defund the police, and Chaz where they have taken over an area, and the people rule it.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
#69
Okay, thanks. = )

Real quick (just for the sake of the readers), re: 2Cor5 ...

--"unclothed" refers to our [that is, believers] "being apart from a body (for a time) upon DEATH of the believer";

--"clothed upon" refers to "being immediately 'clothed upon' with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first" (this happens at ONE point in time FOR "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (the 'ONE BODY'), namely at the time of "our Rapture," and this part specifically referring the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" part of "the Body")--"that MORTALITY might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE"
[whereas 1Cor15:51-54 is covering BOTH aspects of the Church which is His body at the time of "our Rapture" ("the DEAD IN Christ" AND the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"... both... at "our Rapture" point in time)]



Paul is saying that we are "earnestly desiring" the "clothed upon" thing (which occurs for the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"/STILL-LIVING at the time being referred to)... for no one really is "EARNESTLY DESIRING" to "DIE" (even us 'saved persons'), but that he is "WILLING" to die, if God so wills it.

IOW, he (and we) are "earnestly desiring" the CHANGE that will come at the point in time of "our Rapture" (when we will also be "caught up" AT THE SAME TIME that "the DEAD in Christ" [who "rise first"] shall ALSO be "caught up"...), that is, Paul is referring to "our Rapture" point in time (re: the "clothed upon" issue), and is "earnestly DESIRING" to not have to "DIE first" ("unclothed" / "be apart from a body (for a time) UPON DEATH," though he would still indeed be "present with the Lord".)

I believe that is what these two terms mean in THIS context. (And that vv.2-4, about the "clothed UPON" and "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE," refers specifically to the "STILL-LIVING / STILL-ALIVE" part of the Body, at the time of our Rapture, just as "this MORTAL must put on immortality" does [whereas "this CORRUPTIBLE" speaks of those who've DIED / "the DEAD in Christ" part, in the 1Cor15:51-54 context--still referring to "our Rapture" point in time in the chronology though]

Alright then, let's continue this discussion. You said:

--"unclothed" refers to our [that is, believers] "being apart from a body (for a time) upon DEATH of the believer";

I contend, that Paul had no desire to be found "naked". His obvious desire, from the context, was to be "clothed upon" so he would not be naked. Naked therefore, is to be without a physical body, whether that body is mortal (in this temporal existence) or eternal and immortal.

2Co 5:2-4 , For verily in this we groan (We groan, is the desire to put off this mortal body and all of it's infirmities. This goes back to the conversation of what Paul was writing in Chapter 4). longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (Man is a tripartite being. He has a body, soul and spirit. To be unclothed at death, would mean man becomes only soul and spirit. Paul was not desiring this state of being.) For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, (WHY?) being burdened ( This continues to magnify what has come before, in the previous sentence; along with the statements of suffering in Chapter 4.... such as DEATH v.11, DECAY v.16 and LIGHT AFFLICTION v.17); not for that we would be unclothed, (Paul had no desire for death. He was not implicating some kind of spiritual suicide.) but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. (Swapping that which is full of pain and suffering, for that which will know no pain or corruption.)

There can be no separation of our tripartite being, even for a short time, are we would become less than what God created us as. Waiting for the resurrection, is a temporal view and not eternal. Waiting for the resurrection, is the reality of those that are still living in earthly tents. If this is not true, FOLLOW CLOSELY HERE, then how would you explain, The appearance of Moses and Elijah, who obviously had bodies. Did Jesus Christ have no body for the three days that He was in the ground?

These statements were given to the Corinthian believers, so that they could have hope in their present afflictions. The concept of a RAPTURE, which I whole hardily believe in, is not being taught here. While some of the ideas are certainly similar to those of the RAPTURE of the church, (Being clothed upon for instance) the RAPTURE was discussed previously, in Paul's first letter: 1 Cor. 15:51-58 and 1 Thes. 4:13-18.

Paul's remarks here in 2 Cor. 5 are more parallel to what he had said in: Phil 1:21-26 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if to live in the flesh,--if this shall bring fruit from my work, then what I shall choose I know not. But I am in a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better: yet to abide in the flesh is more needful for your sake. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide, yea, and abide with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith; that your glorying may abound in Christ Jesus in me through my presence with you again.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
#70
The parable in Luke 16 is not a teaching on after life. No such thing for a unbeliever. They will not be raised .Some would say people are still alive after their last breath .

The context in verse 13 No servant can serve two masters serves the whole series of parables used to teach us how to walk by faith .It is compared with two teaching masters .This is knowing no man can serve two . 1)The bible as in al things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) or (2)seek after necromancy .

Luke 16: 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Can you clarify what you meant here: "The parable in Luke 16 is not a teaching on after life. No such thing for a unbeliever. They will not be raised...."

You seem to be saying, that you do not believe, the lost will stand before the Great White Throne. If unbelievers, have no afterlife, then who are these:

Rev_20:6-8 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

This punishment is forever:

Rev 20:1-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
#71
If there is no Hell then why does Jesus keep referring to it in the Gospels and there are too many for them to be attributed to translation or redaction errors. References to it are undoubtedly Dominical in the main.
Translations of the Greek gospels were made into English and used English language idioms to attempt to get the idea across to the reader. As such they foster errant ideology about the destiny of those who are not justified - who die apart from Christ.

In the old Saxon language, the word helle was used to name the underworld. It has nothing at all to do with Biblical teaching about the afterlife. It's a pagan reference completely inappropriate to Biblical context of the teachings of Christ.

The word gehenna, used by Jesus, referred to a waste dump outside of Jerusalem. The use of that word by Jesus was meant to imply total destruction of unwanted refuse, which is exactly what the UNREPENTANT SINNER is.

The word hades, used in errant translations, actually refers to the Greek god of the underworld. Hades was never defined as a place of punishment. It was a person - a mythical character.

Interestingly the Hebrew word sheol is never used to describe the church's version of the afterlife. Sheol was simply a place of the dead, a cemetery, where nothing at all happened.

There are numerous other examples, all of which were used by the early institutional church to promote fear-mongering and myth rather than the horrible idea that an unrepentant SINNER is actually destroyed from all existence - never to exist again in any form.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
#72
If we take Jesus at His word (and who dare not) there can be no forgiveness nor any improving of our lot in the afterlife for those who continually neglect the needy in this life. This warning was given by Jesus in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, recorded in Luke 16: 19-31

'There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

No, father Abraham, he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.

He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead'.

We neglect this warning, given by Jesus, at our peril.
I agree that is what the parable teaches. Those who are not under Christ, and therefore Christlike, have only this appointed time to turn to God.

When we die we all go to the grave. That’s hades. Then all are resurrected, the good and the wicked.


Acts 24:15

15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Those who are not saved are judged according to their deeds. They don’t hear their name called from the book of life. They are then tossed into hell ( the lake of fire) which is the second death and are destroyed. Just like hades and death is destroyed in hell.
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
#73
The parable is not about the afterlife. It’s not about hell.

A big problem happens for English speakers because bibles often translate hades as hell but it’s completely different. Different words and everything. Hell is Gehenna. The other issue is modern Christians often forget to trace back words and verses and phrases to see what they mean within context.
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
#74
The parable is not about the afterlife. It’s not about hell.

A big problem happens for English speakers because bibles often translate hades as hell but it’s completely different. Different words and everything. Hell is Gehenna. The other issue is modern Christians often forget to trace back words and verses and phrases to see what they mean within context.
Hell is not Gehenna. Helle was an old Saxon pagan word for the underworld. Gehenna is a reference by Jesus to the waste dump outside Jerusalem. In centuries past, Gehenna was also the place where babies were sacrificed to the pagan god Molech.

Google these terms.

Read the Bible.

Translations vary because the translators used English idioms to describe Biblical terms and references. It is best to consult several translations when studying the Bible.

Neither of the terms discussed here referred to the Biblical teaching about the condition of a human after death. Upon death a human will die like any other life form on planet Earth. Only those who have been born again will be granted immortal life.

THERE IS NO ETERNAL SPARK IN A HUMAN LIFE. The idea originated with ancient Egypt and does NOT appear in the Bible at all.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
#75
I agree that is what the parable teaches. Those who are not under Christ, and therefore Christlike, have only this appointed time to turn to God.

When we die we all go to the grave. That’s hades. Then all are resurrected, the good and the wicked.


Acts 24:15

15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Those who are not saved are judged according to their deeds. They don’t hear their name called from the book of life. They are then tossed into hell ( the lake of fire) which is the second death and are destroyed. Just like hades and death is destroyed in hell.
Not quite right. When we die we go into the grave - Biblically described as SHEOL. Look it up.

Hades was the Greek god of the underworld - a pagan deity NOT presented in the Bible. Google it.

Hades was a mythical character NOT a place. Ergo hades is NOT a reference to hell except in mistranslations of the Greek Bible.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
#76
I agree that is what the parable teaches. Those who are not under Christ, and therefore Christlike, have only this appointed time to turn to God.

When we die we all go to the grave. That’s hades. Then all are resurrected, the good and the wicked.


Acts 24:15

15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Those who are not saved are judged according to their deeds. They don’t hear their name called from the book of life. They are then tossed into hell ( the lake of fire) which is the second death and are destroyed. Just like hades and death is destroyed in hell.
The timing of the resurrection is misunderstood as well. There will be 2 resurrections. One will be temporary and the other permanent.

The first resurrection will be the rising of the just - eternal and immortal because those who rise will have been born again of the Holy Spirit of God.

A long period of time will elapse before the 2nd resurrection. The second resurrection will be temporary - the rising of the unjust who's destiny will be utter and total destruction, never to exist or live again in any way shape or form.

Examples of this temporary resurrection were made by Jesus; Jairus' daughter, the young man and Lazarus. Look it up in the Bible. All three of those died later on - temporary.

In addition were the hundreds of people who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Their habitation in Jerusalem was temporary also.

READ THE BIBLE. It's all there. Beware popular conjecture. It will mislead you every time.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
#77
Can you clarify what you meant here: "The parable in Luke 16 is not a teaching on after life. No such thing for a unbeliever. They will not be raised...."

You seem to be saying, that you do not believe, the lost will stand before the Great White Throne. If unbelievers, have no afterlife, then who are these:

Rev_20:6-8 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

This punishment is forever:

Rev 20:1-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

The fire (Lake of Fire) burns forever - consuming all that is consigned to it.

That which is destined for the Lake of Fire is burned totally and completely. The destruction is absolute. Not even ashes remain.

The text description of fire is used to imply utter annihilation.

There is no instance in the entire universe where something coming in contact with fire long survives. There is no such thing as eternal torment. The destruction is complete and final. The fire burns forever.

If the reader knows of any substance that can continually burn when exposed to fire please let me know. I'd like to use it to power my car.

Let's get real here about the definition of words and terms.

Fire refers to complete destruction and consumption. There is no instance in heaven or on earth where it doesn't.

Death refers to total cessation of life. There is no instance in heaven or on earth where it doesn't.

When Holy Writ couples the two together, fire & death, it is speaking of something so utterly horrible and final that the reader must conclude that death apart from Christ is something to be avoided at any earthly cost.

Either that or we can believe pagan myths that all survive death, which IS NOT the teaching of the Bible.

As for me, I prefer to READ THE BIBLE. So should those who seek truth given by God to us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
#78
Hell is not Gehenna. Helle was an old Saxon pagan word for the underworld. Gehenna is a reference by Jesus to the waste dump outside Jerusalem. In centuries past, Gehenna was also the place where babies were sacrificed to the pagan god Molech.

Google these terms.

Read the Bible.

Translations vary because the translators used English idioms to describe Biblical terms and references. It is best to consult several translations when studying the Bible.

Neither of the terms discussed here referred to the Biblical teaching about the condition of a human after death. Upon death a human will die like any other life form on planet Earth. Only those who have been born again will be granted immortal life.

THERE IS NO ETERNAL SPARK IN A HUMAN LIFE. The idea originated with ancient Egypt and does NOT appear in the Bible at all.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
I know what the actual place is and I know why it’s translated as hell.

Hell is the translation for the place of the second death. The final death. It’s the metaphorical translation of Gehenna. It’s a separate place from the ( the grave, hades, Abraham’s bosom). This place is the first death.

The reason why hades and hell was both translated often as hell in the New Testament is because of confusion over conditional immortality and eternal torment. The majority of biblical scholars also seem to support this as far as terminology goes. You can look at the work by upcoming scholars, such as Chris Date, with rethinking hell , who has put in thousands of hours studying this out.

When you do a word study following Gehenna you see it repeatedly as the final place where body and soul is destroyed. It’s the eternal punishment of destruction. Those lost go here and are destroyed. Everyone dies going to the first death. Many but not all, those unsaved, face the second death.

As for the statements about we all die like everyone else I already stated that. I also already stated that only the saved are awoken “resurrected” back to eternal life. Humans have never been immortal. Not even Adam and Eve. Only God is immortal. He chooses to give everlasting life to his.
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
#79
The timing of the resurrection is misunderstood as well. There will be 2 resurrections. One will be temporary and the other permanent.

The first resurrection will be the rising of the just - eternal and immortal because those who rise will have been born again of the Holy Spirit of God.

A long period of time will elapse before the 2nd resurrection. The second resurrection will be temporary - the rising of the unjust who's destiny will be utter and total destruction, never to exist or live again in any way shape or form.

Examples of this temporary resurrection were made by Jesus; Jairus' daughter, the young man and Lazarus. Look it up in the Bible. All three of those died later on - temporary.

In addition were the hundreds of people who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Their habitation in Jerusalem was temporary also.

READ THE BIBLE. It's all there. Beware popular conjecture. It will mislead you every time.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
You are not saying anything different than me. You keep acting as if I need to read the Bible but perhaps you need to read comments.

Repeatedly I have stated this.

Everyone faces the first death. They go to the grave. They all sit there until the white throne judgement where all are resurrected to life. Those who are Christians are saved enjoy life on the restored heaven and earth. Those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into hell ( the lake of fire ) and destroyed in the second death which carries the eternal punishment of having been destroyed and their body and soul will never come back.

I’ve read the Bible. I’ve read multiple translations and even different types from Septuagints and Masoretics. I’ve done word studies in Greek and Hebrew on the phrases being translated as hell and hades.

If you feel there is a disagreement, after work over the next few days I can dig deeper into it with you.
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
#80
Not quite right. When we die we go into the grave - Biblically described as SHEOL. Look it up.

Hades was the Greek god of the underworld - a pagan deity NOT presented in the Bible. Google it.

Hades was a mythical character NOT a place. Ergo hades is NOT a reference to hell except in mistranslations of the Greek Bible.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Again hades is the term used to describe the grave. It’s not a reference to hell. Hell I’d a different place associated with the second death. It’s perfectly fine to use these words when they are translated consistently as so.

Same as how Jesus or Moses is not found in the Bible either but we translate it as such. Using words consistently from different languages to portray the same thing is perfectly fine.