"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
M

MacBestus

Guest
LOL. Like I said, you can't deal with it honestly, and we all know why. :rolleyes:


Ok if you wish we will do this again.

You requested we only look at the verses you pulled out of context.

By this methodology you could "prove" anything.

But we are called to study and show ourselves approved. So we will look at the whole of Chapter 7. This way we won't be taking things out of context and misrepresenting the words of Paul as Peter warned us the wicked sin lovers do in 2 Peter.

Romans 7

*1**Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

(So it starts off with two interesting points. His Brethren are those who know Torah, and that is whom he is talking to. He also continues on with upholding the law as definer of sin forever. A continuation of Chapter 6s celebration of Torah.)

*2**For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

*3**So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

(Here he talks about a woman's remarriage, how in one case it is a death sentence and in another fine. Again using Torah as the definer)

*4**Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of the Messiah; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto*יהוה.

(Here he lets us know we are free from the death sentence of the law through the death of our Husband Messiah. I.e. under Grace)

*5**For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

(Without Grace, Law breaking could only lead to death)

*6**But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

(Now when we serve Him, we are under the spirit of Grace, not under the death sentence of law breaking. In other words...when we break the law Grace catches us. Not death.)

*7**What shall we say then? Is the law sin? By no means. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

(So should we avoid the law? of course not. Is it bad to try to follow because we are under Grace? That is silly. We can't even know what sin is without it! After all it defines it!)

*8**But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

*9**For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When we live without law we cannot sin. Therefore we need no Grace. But YHWH gave us the law to teach us to try and be good. By the law we recognize the sin in ourselves which leads to death. And this is a gift of teaching from YHWH.)

*10**And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

(The Torah was given us to teach us how he wants us to live. How to treat ourselves, others and Our Father. But we are imperfect so they eventually condemn us all when we sin.)

*11**For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

(Because sin is violation of the law, and no man can live sin free, and the wages of sin are death... Sin without Grace is a death sentence.)

*12**Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

(More Torah loving by Paul. Who lived it all his life to the best of his ability. And taught it in his writings.)

*13**Was then that which is good made death unto me? By no means. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

(The law is good. And good at its job of teaching us His way. And it wasn't the law that was bad. But PAUL himself because of the lawlessness in himself. This led to a lot of sin.)

*14**For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

(This verse seems to be hard for many. They try and make law keeping out to be Carnal. But reading it in Context we see that the law is Spiritual but MAN is carnal. and the Carnal man can not keep it perfectly no matter how hard we try. Therefore we sell ourselves to death for the price of law breaking without Grace.)

*15**For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

(He hates breaking Torah. But it happens no matter how hard he tries)

*16**If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

*17**Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

(When he breaks Torah he has to admit that the law is good, but the seed of rebellion in him. The sin in him.)

*18**For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

(Nothing good is in his Carnal self)

*19**For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

(In his heart he wants to live Torah... Which he has said Is The measure of good but because he is flesh he fails)

*20**Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

(So if he breaks Torah that he wants to keep- it is the sin inherent in his Carnal flesh that drives it to happen)

*21**I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

(Here he defies a law. One of seven different laws spoken of by Paul. So Pauline law states even when we would do good by Torah keeping we still are not good ourselves. In fact we are evil.)

*22**For I delight in the law of*יהוהafter the inward man:

(His heart is delighted by Torah.)

*23**But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

(But there is another law besides Torah. He calls it the law of sin and says it is separate from Torah. This law fights the desire to keep Torah within him.)

*24**O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

(First he asls the question...)

*25**Thanks be to*יהוה*through Yahushua the Messiah our Saviour. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of*יהוה; but with the flesh the law of sin.

(Then he answers it. The father gave the son. The son saved us. He wants to serve Torah but he is flesh and that serves the law of sin. Carnal desires. Wishing to be free of Torah. Two separate laws. Torah keeping good. Doing what you want bad. )


I hope this will help you understand the problem with verse plucking. These verses need to be taken in context so that heresies such as the sin doctrine,or the abolishment of Torah as the measure if a sin free life take hold.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
Ok if you wish we will do this again.

You requested we only look at the verses you pulled out of context.

By this methodology you could "prove" anything.

But we are called to study and show ourselves approved. So we will look at the whole of Chapter 7. This way we won't be taking things out of context and misrepresenting the words of Paul as Peter warned us the wicked sin lovers do in 2 Peter.

Romans 7

*1**Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

(So it starts off with two interesting points. His Brethren are those who know Torah, and that is whom he is talking to. He also continues on with upholding the law as definer of sin forever. A continuation of Chapter 6s celebration of Torah.)

*2**For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

*3**So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

(Here he talks about a woman's remarriage, how in one case it is a death sentence and in another fine. Again using Torah as the definer)

*4**Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of the Messiah; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto*יהוה.

(Here he lets us know we are free from the death sentence of the law through the death of our Husband Messiah. I.e. under Grace)

*5**For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

(Without Grace, Law breaking could only lead to death)

*6**But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

(Now when we serve Him, we are under the spirit of Grace, not under the death sentence of law breaking. In other words...when we break the law Grace catches us. Not death.)

*7**What shall we say then? Is the law sin? By no means. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

(So should we avoid the law? of course not. Is it bad to try to follow because we are under Grace? That is silly. We can't even know what sin is without it! After all it defines it!)

*8**But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

*9**For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When we live without law we cannot sin. Therefore we need no Grace. But YHWH gave us the law to teach us to try and be good. By the law we recognize the sin in ourselves which leads to death. And this is a gift of teaching from YHWH.)

*10**And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

(The Torah was given us to teach us how he wants us to live. How to treat ourselves, others and Our Father. But we are imperfect so they eventually condemn us all when we sin.)

*11**For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

(Because sin is violation of the law, and no man can live sin free, and the wages of sin are death... Sin without Grace is a death sentence.)

*12**Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

(More Torah loving by Paul. Who lived it all his life to the best of his ability. And taught it in his writings.)

*13**Was then that which is good made death unto me? By no means. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

(The law is good. And good at its job of teaching us His way. And it wasn't the law that was bad. But PAUL himself because of the lawlessness in himself. This led to a lot of sin.)

*14**For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

(This verse seems to be hard for many. They try and make law keeping out to be Carnal. But reading it in Context we see that the law is Spiritual but MAN is carnal. and the Carnal man can not keep it perfectly no matter how hard we try. Therefore we sell ourselves to death for the price of law breaking without Grace.)

*15**For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

(He hates breaking Torah. But it happens no matter how hard he tries)

*16**If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

*17**Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

(When he breaks Torah he has to admit that the law is good, but the seed of rebellion in him. The sin in him.)

*18**For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

(Nothing good is in his Carnal self)

*19**For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

(In his heart he wants to live Torah... Which he has said Is The measure of good but because he is flesh he fails)

*20**Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

(So if he breaks Torah that he wants to keep- it is the sin inherent in his Carnal flesh that drives it to happen)

*21**I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

(Here he defies a law. One of seven different laws spoken of by Paul. So Pauline law states even when we would do good by Torah keeping we still are not good ourselves. In fact we are evil.)

*22**For I delight in the law of*יהוהafter the inward man:

(His heart is delighted by Torah.)

*23**But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

(But there is another law besides Torah. He calls it the law of sin and says it is separate from Torah. This law fights the desire to keep Torah within him.)

*24**O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

(First he asls the question...)

*25**Thanks be to*יהוה*through Yahushua the Messiah our Saviour. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of*יהוה; but with the flesh the law of sin.

(Then he answers it. The father gave the son. The son saved us. He wants to serve Torah but he is flesh and that serves the law of sin. Carnal desires. Wishing to be free of Torah. Two separate laws. Torah keeping good. Doing what you want bad. )


I hope this will help you understand the problem with verse plucking. These verses need to be taken in context so that heresies such as the sin doctrine,or the abolishment of Torah as the measure if a sin free life take hold.
:rolleyes:. Those are very "inventive" interpretations indeed. Like I said, you just can’t deal with verses 5-7 honestly.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
:rolleyes:. Those are very "inventive" interpretations indeed. Like I said, you just can’t deal with verses 5-7 honestly.
Please enlighten us with your interpretation. Please take us verse by verse through this chapter. So we may all be enlightened.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
Please enlighten us with your interpretation. Please take us verse by verse through this chapter. So we may all be enlightened.
You can't even deal honestly with one small portion of it, how do you expect to understand the whole?
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
So you cant. The reason is if you don't take those verses out of context. This chapter completely supports HRM. Just like all of Romans.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
Okay. Here is the part where you explain your position. Making sure it fits in w2ith the rest of the chapter.
Its 7:6. Here's my "position"...

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the Law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Romans 7:5-7 alone totally destroys your whole belief system. But then legalist's never deal honestly with it….because if they did they would no longer be legalists. LOL.
never saw this before
ROMANS 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that
we serve
not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.


we serve... what every Christian wants to do, serve

(and it looks to me like the serving is 'post-justification')

and we serve
not under the old written code
but in the new life of the Spirit.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
Like I said. You have to take it out of context to make it work for you.

It is useless to discuss this any further.

You do not wish to rightly divide scripture. You do not wish to search scripture to see if things are so. You wish to take verses out of context and dictate your opinions.

Nobody of intelligence is fooled by posturing.
LOL. I rest my case.........
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
Huh?

I. Said "6**But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

(Now when we serve Him, we are under the spirit of Grace, not under the death sentence of law breaking. In other words...when we break the law Grace catches us. Not death.)"

So you say I got this wrong? You say those who do not keep written Torah are NOT under Grace? Are you sure that you think this is wrong?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Well they are really quite opposite. Talmud uses mens opinion, as the 'wisdom of the rabbis' to add new laws which are considered superior to YHWH'S Torah.

What I said is that if it is impossible to accomplish a rule of Torah...ie temple laws because :

A) there is no temple currently
B) a temple can only be built on His Holy mountain in his Holy city.
C) i am not a Levite, therefore forbidden from Levitical practice by Torah.

Etc. Therefore I am to know these laws yet not attempt to invent my own variant. Therefore I cannot keep them.

We are told not to add or take away from Torah in Deuteronomy 21. But we are also given specifics that we cannot violate about certain laws. And if we cannot accommodate them it would be sinful to attempt or try to substitute.

Such as

Deuteronomy 12:13**Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:

*14**But in the place which*יהוהshall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.

So attempting to offer a sacrifice any where but the Jerusalem temple is a grave sin.

I do not add or take away. The Pharisees do. I observe all I am able to.
Torah is a single unit, imo it isn't right to divide it into Possible and Impossible.


so for me, before I decided that a commandment was impossible, I would look to see if any prophets or apostles had wise words to deal with the situation.



I believe Paul gives a prophecy here, though he probably didn't realize it

GALATIANS 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

the temple is still standing when Paul writes this

he foretells the way to fulfill the entire law, indivisible, when there is no temple.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
Its 7:6. Here's my "position"...

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the Law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
Keep reading....
*25**Thanks be to*יהוה*through Yahushua the Messiah our Saviour. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of*יהוה; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
Torah is a single unit, imo it isn't right to divide it into Possible and Impossible.


so for me, before I decided that a commandment was impossible, I would look to see if any prophets or apostles had wise words to deal with the situation.



I believe Paul gives a prophecy here, though he probably didn't realize it

GALATIANS 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

the temple is still standing when Paul writes this

he foretells the way to fulfill the entire law, indivisible, when there is no temple.
That is Torah... It is from Leviticus. And Yahshua repeated it twice. Is there such a thing as reverse prophecy? As far as what you think about Torah... That all people who keep it need to keep all parts. Whether or not it is possible or applicable is against Torah itself.

There is a spiritual temple. But Torah is still the definition of a spiritual life. Paul says the law is spiritual in the Romans 7 chapter we just went over. Dont fall i to FNCs verse plucker trap.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
That is Torah... It is from Leviticus. And Yahshua repeated it twice. Is there such a thing as reverse prophecy? As far as what you think about Torah... That all people who keep it need to keep all parts. Whether or not it is possible or applicable is against Torah itself.

There is a spiritual temple. But Torah is still the definition of a spiritual life. Paul says the law is spiritual in the Romans 7 chapter we just went over. Dont fall i to FNCs verse plucker trap.
yes, it is from Torah... Paul says it fulfills the entire law. Does Jesus say this, too?





' As far as what you think about Torah... That all people who keep it need to keep all parts.'

well, that's not quite what I think...
I think those who break any commandment in Torah- for any reason- are breaking it all.

suppose I really wanted to buy a DVD of a certain movie... but I didn't have enough money... it was impossible... so I just bought the left half of the DVD.





' Whether or not it is possible or applicable is against Torah itself.'

I don't understand what you wrote, there...
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
Well they are really quite opposite. Talmud uses mens opinion, as the 'wisdom of the rabbis' to add new laws which are considered superior to YHWH'S Torah.

What I said is that if it is impossible to accomplish a rule of Torah...ie temple laws because :

A) there is no temple currently
B) a temple can only be built on His Holy mountain in his Holy city.
C) i am not a Levite, therefore forbidden from Levitical practice by Torah.

Etc. Therefore I am to know these laws yet not attempt to invent my own variant. Therefore I cannot keep them.

We are told not to add or take away from Torah in Deuteronomy 21. But we are also given specifics that we cannot violate about certain laws. And if we cannot accommodate them it would be sinful to attempt or try to substitute.

Such as

Deuteronomy 12:13**Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:

*14**But in the place which*יהוהshall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.

So attempting to offer a sacrifice any where but the Jerusalem temple is a grave sin.

I do not add or take away. The Pharisees do. I observe all I am able to.
If its impossible to accomplish Torah, for whatever reason, does it bother you that you place yourself under a curse for continuing in it?

Galatians 3:10 [FONT=&quot]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[/FONT]
You know, there is a solution for the curse you are placing yourself under.

Galatians 3:13-14
[FONT=&quot]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.[/FONT]
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
If its impossible to accomplish Torah, for whatever reason, does it bother you that you place yourself under a curse for continuing in it?

Galatians 3:10 [FONT=&quot]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[/FONT]
You know, there is a solution for the curse you are placing yourself under.

Galatians 3:13-14
[FONT=&quot]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.[/FONT]
Does it bother you that although you have been irrefutable evidence that you are wrong on these verses you still keep putting them out?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,426
113
You have it all completely backwards.

First step. Come to Christ and then you will understand Torah.

If you are still trying to "rightly divide" the word in order to work at some commandments and not work at others then you are rejecting Grace just like the hebrews before you.

Galatians 3:10-12
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Romans 9:31-33

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Did you know verse 33 is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ?
So many read what we write, it is so important that you and I get it correct.

We must understand that the Lord is the one who saves us, and it is not our doing that causes that, it is the grace of our Lord. So we give ourselves over to the Lord, not to our fleshly self. But as we read that it is not our work for the Lord that saves us, we must also listen to Isaiah 56, and know we are to serve the Lord, lobe Him, be His worker, keep his Shabbats, and not profane them.