"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

[MacBestus]

So Jesus failed to accomplish the very thing He came for?? (Matt. 5:17)

Messiah fulfilled the first coming set of Torah. Exactly what he came to fulfill.

The easiest place to see it is in the feasts. The first coming fulfilled the spring feasts. The second will fulfill the fall feasts. There are other things of course. It is just easiest to see in the feasts.

If he had fulfilled all at the first coming there would be no need for a second.

Remember when itis allfulfilled heaven and earth pass away.

 

[Dan_473]

Its not just HRM who is kept from the temple. All observant are. If the temple is reestablished in accordance with Torah HRM people will act accordingly.

Torah is not modified by lack of a temple. Its practice is curtailed. It is a punishment. Torah is a blessing and a joy....

I believe Torah is a lifestyle, a singular unit. A person practices it, or they don't.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a curtailed practice of Torah.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Messiah fulfilled the first coming set of Torah. Exactly what he came to fulfill.

The easiest place to see it is in the feasts. The first coming fulfilled the spring feasts. The second will fulfill the fall feasts. There are other things of course. It is just easiest to see in the feasts.

If he had fulfilled all at the first coming there would be no need for a second.

Remember when itis allfulfilled heaven and earth pass away.

By bringing to full fruition all that the Law pointed to pictorially and custodially, Jesus is Himself the end, the end objective of the Law. And as the risen Lord and Savior He is the living directive of God in our (Christians) lives, who makes that old way obsolete.

 

[MacBestus]

I believe Torah is a lifestyle, a singular unit. A person practices it, or they don't.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a curtailed practice of Torah.

We are not to modify his ways. Not to add nor take away. When we cannot follow a law because of circumstances. He knows.

That does not mean we should institute twisted man made versions. That is forbidden.

 

[MacBestus]

By bringing to full fruition all that the Law pointed to pictorially and custodially, Jesus is Himself the end, the end objective of the Law. And as the risen Lord and Savior He is the living directive of God in our (Christians) lives, who makes that old way obsolete.

So close and yet so far off. If you ever read the bible without church dogma in your head. I mean really paid attention to the words as written and their plain meanings, you would truly be astonished.

 

[Dan_473]

We are not to modify his ways. Not to add nor take away. When we cannot follow a law because of circumstances. He knows.

That does not mean we should institute twisted man made versions. That is forbidden.

I disagree that one can 'follow a law'.

I believe Torah is a singular unit.

One follows Torah, or one does not.

to me, following a partial collection of laws from Torah is like buying half a boat.

 

[Dan_473]

We are not to modify his ways. Not to add nor take away. When we cannot follow a law because of circumstances. He knows.

That does not mean we should institute twisted man made versions. That is forbidden.

A person can attempt to complete all of Torah.

Torah is a singular unit.

GALATIANS 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Blik]

I have read the Torah many times. I read it to see Christ in the scriptures.

Tell me - to those that keep the law. Have you stoned any of your children yet when they have dis-obeyed you? Have you stoned any of your relatives that tried to get you away from God yet? Those are in the Torah and yet "supposed" Torah followers break the actual Torah every day in some capacity.

If one is going to live by the law - then he is obligated to live by all of it. There are no "parts" to the Law. Saying that some are for us and some are not is just watering down the Law to make it seem "do-able" but in reality "law-keepers" have a very low respect for the Law and in fact break the law every day.

Romans 10:4-5 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. [SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

We have died to the Law SO THAT we might live unto God.

Galatians 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

There is no justification or right standing with God because one "keeps the law". Christians live by faith - faith in Christ and what He has already done and we live by His life in us now.

Galatians 3:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." ( the law of Moses is NOT of faith )
The Law is NOT of faith and if you practice the Law - you must live by it.

Galatians 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

When we are trying to keep the law of which circumcision is a part of - we are obligated to keep the whole law ( Remember there are NO PARTS to the law - it is either all or live by Christ by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross and resurrection )

Galatians 5:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ in us to lead us into life in Him. Let's eat from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself in us. The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Choose Christ. He is our life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ( NOT in the law of Moses )

If you read the Torah for understanding of God, (and Jesus is God) you would be able to understand the NT.

You also are giving mixed up messages of NT scriptures because you have not properly studied all of scripture.


The new covenant was made with Israel, not with the gentiles. You are invited in as adopted into the word of God. As one adopted you are not to disavow the words of the Father. When the Father gave the ten commandments He said it was for all time.


We are to rightly divide the word, and that means we are to understand what law scripture means when it speaks of law. Some are rites given to help people obey law like diet and circumcision. The Holy Ghost helps us in the same way the rites did, although few people listen. The rabbis and synagogues were not ordained by the Lord and appeared in Babylon. They established interpretations they call law, when we do this we call them doctrines. They were not given by the Lord.


You are getting the words “under law” all mixed up. Not being under law has nothing to do with doing our best to obey law. It means we understand that God gives our salvation, we don’t manufacture it for ourselves through anything we do. God never gave anyone power to give themselves salvation at any time. And God has always told us to obey Him. Christ is the blood that saves us, not the law, but that does NOT mean that we are to disobey Christ and not obey the law. Christ said that if you love me you will keep my commandments. The guidance of the Father and the Son is the very same. The Son gave comments on some of the basic laws, even.

 

[FreeNChrist]

So close and yet so far off. If you ever read the bible without church dogma in your head. I mean really paid attention to the words as written and their plain meanings, you would truly be astonished.

Right . This from a guy who changes the "plain meaning" of "Law" to mean only the Talmud whenever it suits him and his need to justify his continuing in what no longer has any relevance, having long ago fulfilled its God given intended purpose. Now, that is truly astonishing.

 

[FreeNChrist]

If you read the Torah for understanding of God, (and Jesus is God) you would be able to understand the NT.

You also are giving mixed up messages of NT scriptures because you have not properly studied all of scripture.


The new covenant was made with Israel, not with the gentiles. You are invited in as adopted into the word of God.As one adopted you are not to disavow the words of the Father.When the Father gave the ten commandments He said it was for all time.


We are to rightly divide the word, and that means we are to understand what law scripture means when it speaks of law. Some are rites given to help people obey law like diet and circumcision.The Holy Ghost helps us in the same way the rites did, although few people listen.The rabbis and synagogues were not ordained by the Lord and appeared in Babylon.They established interpretations they call law, when we do this we call them doctrines.They were not given by the Lord.


You are getting the words “under law” all mixed up. Not being under law has nothing to do with doing our best to obey law.It means we understand that God gives our salvation, we don’t manufacture it for ourselves through anything we do.God never gave anyone power to give themselves salvation at any time.And God has always told us to obey Him.Christ is the blood that saves us, not the law, but that does NOT mean that we are to disobey Christ and not obey the law.Christ said that if you love me you will keep my commandments.The guidance of the Father and the Son is the very same.The Son gave comments on some of the basic laws, even.

The key there is to "rightly divide", something you failed miserably to do.

 

[Blik]

The key there is to "rightly divide", something you failed miserably to do.

I have pointed out how and where scripture is misinterpreted, you are saying I "failed miserably". Where?

In fact, the poster I replied to even stated that the Torah states that God wants us to throw stones at our children. David says that God is only loving so the poster could not believe both David in the Psalms and his interpretation of the Torah. I am saying that the poster is not reading the Torah with understanding.

 

[MacBestus]

Right . This from a guy who changes the "plain meaning" of "Law" to mean only the Talmud whenever it suits him and his need to justify his continuing in what no longer has any relevance, having long ago fulfilled its God given intended purpose. Now, that is truly astonishing.

Ah, the master of the out of context half verse quote shows thier fruit again.

Lies

Your father must be so proud.

Why do you feel the need to lie to prop up a failing argument? I have proven what I say from scripture.

 

[Grandpa]

We are not to modify his ways. Not to add nor take away. When we cannot follow a law because of circumstances. He knows.

That does not mean we should institute twisted man made versions. That is forbidden.

What's the difference between what you do and what the Talmud does to the law?

 

[Grandpa]

If you read the Torah for understanding of God, (and Jesus is God) you would be able to understand the NT.

You also are giving mixed up messages of NT scriptures because you have not properly studied all of scripture.


The new covenant was made with Israel, not with the gentiles. You are invited in as adopted into the word of God.As one adopted you are not to disavow the words of the Father.When the Father gave the ten commandments He said it was for all time.


We are to rightly divide the word, and that means we are to understand what law scripture means when it speaks of law. Some are rites given to help people obey law like diet and circumcision.The Holy Ghost helps us in the same way the rites did, although few people listen.The rabbis and synagogues were not ordained by the Lord and appeared in Babylon.They established interpretations they call law, when we do this we call them doctrines.They were not given by the Lord.


You are getting the words “under law” all mixed up. Not being under law has nothing to do with doing our best to obey law.It means we understand that God gives our salvation, we don’t manufacture it for ourselves through anything we do.God never gave anyone power to give themselves salvation at any time.And God has always told us to obey Him.Christ is the blood that saves us, not the law, but that does NOT mean that we are to disobey Christ and not obey the law.Christ said that if you love me you will keep my commandments.The guidance of the Father and the Son is the very same.The Son gave comments on some of the basic laws, even.

You have it all completely backwards.

First step. Come to Christ and then you will understand Torah.

If you are still trying to "rightly divide" the word in order to work at some commandments and not work at others then you are rejecting Grace just like the hebrews before you.

Galatians 3:10-12
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Romans 9:31-33
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Did you know verse 33 is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ?[/FONT]

 

[FreeNChrist]

Ah, the master of the out of context half verse quote shows thier fruit again.

Lies

Your father must be so proud.

Why do you feel the need to lie to prop up a failing argument? I have proven what I say from scripture.

Romans 7:5-7 alone totally destroys your whole belief system. But then legalist's never deal honestly with it….because if they did they would no longer be legalists. LOL.

 

[MacBestus]

Romans 7:5-7 alone totally destroys your whole belief system. But then legalist's never deal honestly with it….because if they did they would no longer be legalists. LOL.

The book of Romans as a whole destroys yours. But then sin lovers never deal with whole books and contexts... Because if you did you would cease being sin lovers. I will refrain from laughing at you. Not only does it sadden me that you love and teach sin loving and use lies to try and advance your position, but also only fools make a mock of sin.

 

[gb9]

The book of Romans as a whole destroys yours. But then sin lovers never deal with whole books and contexts... Because if you did you would cease being sin lovers. I will refrain from laughing at you. Not only does it sadden me that you love and teach sin loving and use lies to try and advance your position, but also only fools make a mock of sin.

well, if you would read the Book of Acts, especially the 13th and 15th chapters, you would see that gentiles never were, and are not now, under the Law of Moses.

 

[MacBestus]

What's the difference between what you do and what the Talmud does to the law?

Well they are really quite opposite. Talmud uses mens opinion, as the 'wisdom of the rabbis' to add new laws which are considered superior to YHWH'S Torah.

What I said is that if it is impossible to accomplish a rule of Torah...ie temple laws because :

A) there is no temple currently
B) a temple can only be built on His Holy mountain in his Holy city.
C) i am not a Levite, therefore forbidden from Levitical practice by Torah.

Etc. Therefore I am to know these laws yet not attempt to invent my own variant. Therefore I cannot keep them.

We are told not to add or take away from Torah in Deuteronomy 21. But we are also given specifics that we cannot violate about certain laws. And if we cannot accommodate them it would be sinful to attempt or try to substitute.

Such as

Deuteronomy 12:13**Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:

*14**But in the place which*יהוהshall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.

So attempting to offer a sacrifice any where but the Jerusalem temple is a grave sin.

I do not add or take away. The Pharisees do. I observe all I am able to.

 

[MacBestus]

well, if you would read the Book of Acts, especially the 13th and 15th chapters, you would see that gentiles never were, and are not now, under the Law of Moses.

This has been dealt with earlier in this thread. But I guess it bears repeating.

First. The HRM does not teach that you are under the law. That is an erroneous belief about us.

We believe we are under Grace.

We believe that Paul was right.

As he said in Romans 6:*1**What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that Grace may abound?
*2**By no means. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So because we are under Grace does not mean we should sin.

How does the New Testament define sin?

1 John 3:4**Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.

So the argument is not about being under the law or being under Grace, no matter how sin lovers try to make it that. It is about whether or not Grace is a license (some say a command) to sin.

HRM keeps the Torah because we ARE saved. Not to be saved.

The sin doctrine teaches we cannot sin if we have accepted Messiah. HRM believe we all sin and try not to. Relying on Grace when we fall. But continually learning and improving.


That being said. Reread Acts 15. Verse 20 gives 4 Torah commands that were expected for Gentile believers to keep in order to even fellowship with believers... including dietary commands. Then We are told in verse 21 that they were expected to keep learning Torah in Synagogue every sabbath.

Acts 15:17**That the residue of men might seek after*יהוה, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith*יהוה, who doeth all these things.

*18**Known unto*יהוה*are all his works from the beginning of the world.

*19**Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to*יהוה:

*20**But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

*21**For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The book of Romans as a whole destroys yours. But then sin lovers never deal with whole books and contexts... Because if you did you would cease being sin lovers. I will refrain from laughing at you. Not only does it sadden me that you love and teach sin loving and use lies to try and advance your position, but also only fools make a mock of sin.

LOL. Like I said, you can't deal with it honestly, and we all know why.