"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Above is a simple lie. A Judaizer is someone who insists you are a jew to be a christian.

The addition G7 group preach is an extreme version of grace, which is without reference to
the moral law. In their eyes everyone who does not take their whole view is a judaizer which
is simply absurd.

But G7 is becoming more open about his failure in this regard, because he is loosing the argument
because being a wolf in sheeps clothing only works if you have not been spotted.

The whole premise of this diatribe is pointless if he fails at the first step. But dumb if you want to
claim the higher ground, lol.

Judaizers - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online

And looking at what some are giving into in this view of morality, lots of positions are being
shifted towards Antinomianism which puts no obligations or guilt or sense of a need to change.

This debate has gone on throughout church history, but it is one believer at a time does the
truth sing through.
Its funny how you refer to it as a moral law. There is always some sort of twist or circular reasoning for you to go back to your own work.

What would be the disaster that would happen if someone gave up all of their works and understanding and just trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ 100% to change them in the way that would be beneficial for Salvation and Obedience??

What would happen if people didn't rest on saturdays and ate bacon? But still trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ 100% to love their neighbor and love God??

As an aside how does resting on saturdays and eating bacon relate to morality?


If you don't know what Christianity is why not just ask? Why try to make it into something that it never was? It is truly the blind leading the blind when you focus on your own carnal works and understanding.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
' Dan said that Messiah lived by the Spirit -- and I ask in response to that: As a result, how did He live?'

according to Torah, of course, and including all the words of wisdom that later prophets and apostles about how we carry that out.


Jesus probably didn't eat unclean meats, but if he did, it wouldn't have defiled him. He probably would've said, 'food is made for man, not man for food. The son of man is lord of the animal.'

that's the reasoning he used to show that he could work on the Sabbath.

I believe that's the way of walking that pleases God.
The conflict here is that people are using those later words of the apostles (primarily post-Gospel NT writings, specifically by Paul) to invalidate the way that Messiah lived and walked according to Torah. They are essentially saying: That's how Messiah walked, but it's not for me because of what the apostles (chiefly Paul) said. You can't have it both ways: you can't say that the Messiah's walk according to Torah included the later words of wisdom by the apostles about how to carry that out, though in the end he still walked according to the commands' basic-understood sense (don't eat unclean meats means don't eat them, which Messiah never did), but for us, those words of wisdom from the apostles mean not to walk in that manner (i.e., I can eat unclean meats). It's paradoxical, because if His carrying out of the Torah commands included guidance by the Spirit and understanding of the words of wisdom from the later apostles, just as our lives should include, then the result should be that we walk as He did, but the reality is that most Christians do not. He kept kosher, mainstream Christianity does not. Simple as that.

And Messiah certainly did not eat unclean meats. If He did, He would have been in sin, which would have invalidated Him as the Messiah. And it would have been impossible for Peter to have such a strong reaction against the idea of eating unclean meats in Acts 10 if He had walked for three years with a Messiah who casually ate unclean meats from time to time. The disciples walked as He walked, which included how He kept the Torah-Law commands (which include the dietary commands), and we are charged to do the same. If we're not walking after Messiah's example, then whose are we walking after? Some imperfect mere human who came after Him?

I'm not going to respond much to your point about food and Sabbath. Again, you're not even using God's definition of food (what is permissible to eat), but the world's definition. And on Sabbath, this would open a huge can of worms, but the key takeaway is that He wasn't breaking Sabbath, but only breaking man's traditions of Sabbath -- He was making the case that His healing and His disciples picking grains to eat were not violations of the Sabbath command, but we're indeed lawful to do on the Sabbath. He still kept the fourth commandment despite the false accusations from the Pharisees that He broke it. Nowhere does Torah prohibit these things and God's intention was not to prevent them; but those prohibitions were instead Pharisaical inventions, not the will of God. The Messiah cleared up a controversial and debated issue in the society of that time: it's lawful to heal on the Sabbath. He issued what is called halacha: a right ruling of a command. He doesn't dismiss the command; He just brings the correct application.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
The conflict here is that people are using those later words of the apostles (primarily post-Gospel NT writings, specifically by Paul) to invalidate the way that Messiah lived and walked according to Torah. They are essentially saying: That's how Messiah walked, but it's not for me because of what the apostles (chiefly Paul) said. You can't have it both ways: you can't say that the Messiah's walk according to Torah included the later words of wisdom by the apostles about how to carry that out, though in the end he still walked according to the commands' basic-understood sense (don't eat unclean meats means don't eat them, which Messiah never did), but for us, those words of wisdom from the apostles mean not to walk in that manner (i.e., I can eat unclean meats). It's paradoxical, because if His carrying out of the Torah commands included guidance by the Spirit and understanding of the words of wisdom from the later apostles, just as our lives should include, then the result should be that we walk as He did, but the reality is that most Christians do not. He kept kosher, mainstream Christianity does not. Simple as that.

And Messiah certainly did not eat unclean meats. If He did, He would have been in sin, which would have invalidated Him as the Messiah. And it would have been impossible for Peter to have such a strong reaction against the idea of eating unclean meats in Acts 10 if He had walked for three years with a Messiah who casually ate unclean meats from time to time. The disciples walked as He walked, which included how He kept the Torah-Law commands (which include the dietary commands), and we are charged to do the same. If we're not walking after Messiah's example, then whose are we walking after? Some imperfect mere human who came after Him?

I'm not going to respond much to your point about food and Sabbath. Again, you're not even using God's definition of food (what is permissible to eat), but the world's definition. And on Sabbath, this would open a huge can of worms, but the key takeaway is that He wasn't breaking Sabbath, but only breaking man's traditions of Sabbath -- He was making the case that His healing and His disciples picking grains to eat were not violations of the Sabbath command, but we're indeed lawful to do on the Sabbath. He still kept the fourth commandment despite the false accusations from the Pharisees that He broke it. Nowhere does Torah prohibit these things and God's intention was not to prevent them; but those prohibitions were instead Pharisaical inventions, not the will of God. The Messiah cleared up a controversial and debated issue in the society of that time: it's lawful to heal on the Sabbath. He issued what is called halacha: a right ruling of a command. He doesn't dismiss the command; He just brings the correct application.
No. What we are doing is rightly interpreting the Old by the New. What you are doing is wrongly interpreting the New by the Old. You have missed the cross entirely.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
excellent

so we see that a later prophet, Isaiah, gives us wise words on how to understand Torah, which then modifies how we practice Torah.

'Just as all Torah teaches Messiah and Messiah taught Torah.' also Paul, as a representative of Christ taught Torah.

so Paul gives us teachings about Torah which modify the way we practice it.






I believe this is a global modifier that modifies how we practice every commandment, actually every word, in Torah.

GALATIANS 5:14 For all of Torah is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Hello Dan

It is amazing what you get out of what I say. perhaps it is a cultural thing. I went to UK schools and I assume you went to US.

Or perhaps it is generational. I am not as young as I used to be.

Let's just wade in...
You said:

"so we see that a later prophet, Isaiah, gives us wise words on how to understand Torah, which then modifies how we practice Torah."

This statement about learning deeper things about Torah by following Torah does not in any way "modify" Torah or its practice. It just shows we need to take it as a whole. And then we will begin to gain better understanding of Torah and what it foreshadows .

You go on:
"so Paul gives us teachings about Torah which modify the way we practice it."

Paul in no way modifies Torah... You must show me chapter and verse on that!


You continue: "I believe this is a global modifier that modifies how we practice every commandment, actually every word, in Torah.*

GALATIANS 5:14 For all of Torah is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

This does not modify Torah...it is Torah!

Leviticus 19:18**Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am*יהוה.

This is one of the problems you run into when you do not know the Hebrew Scriptures. You cannot build the roof without the foundation.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
they also most likely do not take care to not wear blended fabrics ( Lev. 19-19 ) . or, do the guys follow the 27th verse of the same factor?? probably not>
This is one of the least informed and most biased statements of false witness I have seen yet. This is actually one of the first steps taken by most people who have decided to experience the joy and freedom that come from Torah life.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Christ is our true life - not the Torah. That is substituting Christ for the law of Moses.

Colossians 3:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Romans 8:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

NOT the Torah. Christ is our life.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
Question: "Who were the Judaizers?"

Answer: There have always been those who balk at the idea of God’s salvation being offered freely to those who believe. They reason that such a grand gift as forgiveness from such a holy God must require some kind of payment from us. We thank God for His grace, but we understand that He expects us to somehow earn that grace—in other words, there must be something that we can do to pay off the debt we owe to God.

In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judaizers.” The word Judaizer comes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.” The word appears in
Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”

A Judaizer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. Circumcision, especially, was promoted as necessary for salvation. Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes first, and then they could come to Christ.

The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in
Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.

At the Jerusalem Council in
Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses.

Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (
Acts 15:8–9). He said it plainly in Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

To add anything to the work that Christ did for salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law. “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (
Galatians 2:21).

There are many groups today with beliefs/practices very similar to the Judaizers of the New Testament. The two most prominent would be the
Hebrew Roots Movement and the Roman Catholic Church. The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches a doctrine similar to that of the Judaizers of the New Testament in this way: its doctrine is a mixture of law and grace. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the Catholic Church explicitly denied the idea of salvation by faith alone.

Catholics have always held that certain sacraments are necessary for salvation. The issues for the 1st-century Judaizers were circumcision and Sabbath-keeping. The issues for modern-day Catholics are baptism, confession, etc. The works considered necessary may have changed, but both Judaizers and Catholics attempt to merit God’s grace through the performance of ritualistic acts.

First Timothy 4:3 says that, in later times, false teachers will “forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” This sounds suspiciously close to some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism, which requires priests to be celibate (“forbidding to marry”) and proclaims some food to be off-limits during Lent (“abstaining from certain foods”).

The Judaizers upheld the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation; Catholics uphold man-made tradition as necessary; both view Christ’s death as being insufficient without the active and continued cooperation of the one being saved.

The Bible is clear that the attempt to add human works to God’s grace overlooks the very meaning of grace, which is “undeserved blessing.” As Paul says, “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (
Romans 11:6). Praise the Lord, “Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).

https://gotquestions.org/Judaizers.html
Judaizer.

A seldom used word in scripture. But often used by many unlearned people to try and make YHWH'S life instruction of Torah, which was lived and taught by the not only the Apostles but also Messiah himself, into something burdensome or even sinful! This is not only blasphemous but plainly foolish.

No serious berean believes this heresy. Let us see what mainstream-non HRM commentary says:

"Judaizers

Those who adopted Jewish religious practices or sought to influence others to do so. The Greek verb*ioudaizo*[Ioudai?zw] ("to judaize") appears only once in The Septuagint (*Esther8:17*) and once in the New Testament (*Gal 2:14*). In The Septuagint this verb is used in relation to the Gentiles in Persia who adopted Jewish [cultural] practices in order to avoid the consequences of Esther's decree (*Esther 8:13*), which permitted Jews to avenge the wrongs committed against them. The Septuagint not only uses*ioudaizo[Ioudai?zw]to translate the Hebrew*mityahadim*("to become a Jew"), but adds that these Gentiles were circumcised.

In Galatians 2:14 it means to "live like Jews" (RSV, neb, NASB, Phillips),"follow Jewish customs" (NIV), or "live by the Jewish [oral as differentiated from biblical] law"(Barclay). The context for this reference is the episode in Antioch when Paul condemns Peter's withdrawal from table fellowship with Gentile Christians. Peter's actions are viewed by Paul as a serious compromise of the gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone, lending support to the position that sought to impose Jewish ceremonial/oral law on The Gentiles. Thus, Paul interprets Peter's withdrawal in terms of its effect in compelling Gentile Christians to live like Jews."

Seems plain. Or as History's Myth Busters puts it:

"The Jewish Talmud teaches a system of morality that is contrary to the Old and New Testaments.* This includes the same Egyptian mystery religion that was practiced by the apostate Jews of the captivity (Ezekiel 8:16)* and the Pharisees after the Restoration.* The Book of Revelation describes apostate Judaism as “…the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8).

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for substituting their traditions for the law of God (Mk 7:9).** A largely unknown aspect of that tradition is the occult practice of*Kabbalah, that has experienced* a strong resurgence in recent centuries.

This philosophy, described as “the soul of Judaism” lies at the heart of occult practice stretching back to antiquity.* It involves worship of the sun and the Dog Star or Eastern Star, Sirius, that God revealed to Ezekiel in vision:**“Then He brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house.* And behold at the entrance to the temple of the Lord…were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun”(Ezekiel. 8:16)."


As if this wasn't plain enough, let us look at the definition of the word translated as Judaizer in Galatians 2 :14

G2450

Original:*Ἰουδαΐ́ζω

Transliteration:*Ioudaizō

Phonetic:*ee-oo-dah-id'-zo

Thayer Definition:

to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise one who observes the ritual spoken laws of the Jews

Origin: from*G2453

TDNT entry: 08:56,4

Part(s) of speech: Verb

Strong's Definition: From*G2453; to*become a Judaean, that is, " judaize" : - live as the Jews customarily do.

Messiah spoke out against these people who added these thousands of laws to his people. Most know the hand washing event of Mattthew 15.

Matthew 15:Matthew 15

*1**Then came to Yahushua scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

*2**Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

*3**But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of Elohim by your tradition?

*4**For Elohim commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

*5**But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

*6**And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of*יהוה*of none effect by your tradition.

*7**Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,

*8**This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

*9**But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

*10**And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

*11**Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

*12**Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

*13**But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

*14**Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

*15**Then answered Kepha and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

*16**And Yahushua said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

*17**Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

*18**But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

*19**For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

*20**These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

This verse is directed at those Judaizers. Those teaching Talmud. I have many people try to use this verse to try and say this is Yahshua negating Torah. The Hand washing ritual is not Torah but Talmud. The yoke unable to be bourne. This also is not him teaching unclean meats are ok. Silly that.

Judaizers taught things particular to the Jewish people. That one part of Israel. Not the Torah of YHWH.
They taught Talmud laws.

No matter how badly those of the ear tickler set want the Torah of YHWH to be wrong. No serious student of either HRM or mainstream Christianity teach that Judaizers were pushing Torah. Nor do any well established seminaries.
I attended and graduated a very old seminary (mainstream not HRM) and Judaizers were taught as Talmud pushers not Torah pushers.

That comes from people who have not looked into it and are trying push an agenda of demonizing Torah.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Nonsense...no one is "demonizing the Torah". We are simply putting the law where it should be - Torah is not our life - Christ HimselfIS our true life in the New Covenant!

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! The law was a mere shadow of the real substance which is Christ Himself.

When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods....etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe the Sabbath and the feasts/and or diet restrictions as the law of Moses dictates or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.


This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

 
M

MacBestus

Guest
Your continually saying HRM is teaching a works based salvation borders on the silly.

This following was something i wrote in another thread. Hopefully you will understand this example by reading it again.:


YHWH moved a man to give a puppy each to two men in two different towns. He gave each of them a puppy for free.
He never asked them for anything ever. They had never even met. And they never did again. It was just plain old free gift. They both loved their free puppies greatly. But neither knew very much about puppies.

The first studied about puppies. He found out the best way for them to be cared for and fed his puppy well. As they lived with each other they became very close. They walked all the days of their lives together looking after each other. All who saw them commented on their closeness. Almost like a single unit. People commented on their love for each other and never mentioned one name without the other.

The other man knew nothing about puppies either. He asked another man about them. The man told him they were expensive to feed. He answered that the puppy had been free. The other man laughed and said "Not if you have to buy food" . the man played with his puppy and loved it. And the puppy loved the man. But the only food it ate was scraps from the floor. It was never healthy in the mans home. A friend saw the two of them and suggested he feed the puppy and walk it. He even gave him a giant book full of information on how to care for puppies. But it was a real big book. And the man decided reading such a big book would take a lot of time. And time is money. This was after all a free puppy. So he just skimmed the book. But he read a few chapters on how to get the dog to do tricks for him. Fetch him things. Be loyal. But nothing on what he needed to do for the puppy. One day an old man saw the man walking the puppy. "Sir, that puppy needs a vet! There is a free clinic across the street you can go to on Saturday mornings that will help you out for just an hour of your time." "Saturday is my day off!" he replied. "Besides,it is a free puppy." he walked off not even looking to see if the puppy followed. It did a few feet behind, love in its eyes, protecting him.


Now. People love to say that HRM folks are preaching a works based salvation. They aren't. And I will tell you that the Messiah addressed this issue. In Matthew 5. He TOUGHENED some of the Torah laws. But he also said this.

Matthew 5:18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

*19**Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 18 he told us the law stands till the end of the millennium with no change. In 19 he says those of the sin doctrine will be the least in his kingdom. That means they will still be there. Because SALVATION IS FREE...YOU CANNOT EARN IT BY FOLLOWING THE LAW. Grace gets you in.

But reward is by merit.

That is Messiah speaking. And it is plain.

The second camp is the Sin doctrine camp. They believe that grace is the end of the matter. That huge hunks of the law are not to be followed. Or even that it is sinful trying to follow it.

They like to say why bother with the law...your rejecting grace.

There is a story for them too.

A couple had identical twin boys and argued over raising them. So they each took one baby to raise on their own.

The first parent set up a set of house rules before the baby arrived, ending in the child going to any college if their choice funded by the parent. And spent time teaching these rules to their child. Sacrificing time and money and their own life they praised and spanked and rewarded and punished and encouraged the boy through life. Constantly educating in a firm but loving way. With both punishment and forgiveness. Although it was hard on both of them the boy was well mannered hard working and gentle and kind. Did well in school, and even became an olympic athlete.

The other parent had a different philosophy. When the baby soiled its nappies, it was forgiven but not corrected. And the parent decided not to bother potty training as it was impossible for any person to guarantee a life with no unfortunate accidents in that department. The boy never learned to walk, because it was going to be difficult. And the parent loved the child so. Besides, everyone falls sometimes at any age. So the difficulties of that were spared him. He did learn to speak somewhat because he would overhear this or that from television or on the radio. But that was that. Eventually the parents died. The first brother took the second brother in and cared for him. But all visitors always thought the second brother was special needs as he just was never held to learning and doing .

Here is one more verse.

Romans 6:*1**What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that favour may abound?

*2**By no means. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Paul and John both give unequivocal definitions of sin being violation of the law.

Messiahs walk and commands say the same

Peter says not to try to use Paul to Prove lawlessness.

A final question. Are we the servants of our Father, or is he our servant?
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
Nonsense...no one is "demonizing the Torah". We are simply putting the law where it should be - Torah is not our life - Christ HimselfIS our true life in the New Covenant!

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! The law was a mere shadow of the real substance which is Christ Himself.

When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods....etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe the Sabbath and the feasts/and or diet restrictions as the law of Moses dictates or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.


This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

Messiah did not fulfill all the law yet. But he will.

He fulfilled the suffering servant bits. The spring feasts. What the Jews call the Messiah ben Yosef parts. The other bits. The victorious warrior king bits. The fall feasts. What the Jews call the Messiah ben David bits are fulfilled at the second coming.

Have you read Torah?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I have read the Torah many times. I read it to see Christ in the scriptures.

Tell me - to those that keep the law. Have you stoned any of your children yet when they have dis-obeyed you? Have you stoned any of your relatives that tried to get you away from God yet? Those are in the Torah and yet "supposed" Torah followers break the actual Torah every day in some capacity.

If one is going to live by the law - then he is obligated to live by all of it. There are no "parts" to the Law. Saying that some are for us and some are not is just watering down the Law to make it seem "do-able" but in reality "law-keepers" have a very low respect for the Law and in fact break the law every day.

Romans 10:4-5 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

We have died to the Law SO THAT we might live unto God.

Galatians 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.


There is no justification or right standing with God because one "keeps the law". Christians live by faith - faith in Christ and what He has already done and we live by His life in us now.

Galatians 3:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] Now
that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." ( the law of Moses is NOT of faith )
The Law is NOT of faith and if you practice the Law - you must live by it.

Galatians 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

When we are trying to keep the law of which circumcision is a part of - we are obligated to keep the whole law (
Remember there are NO PARTS to the law - it is either all or live by Christ by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross and resurrection )

Galatians 5:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ in us to lead us into life in Him. Let's eat from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself in us. The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Choose Christ. He is our life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ( NOT in the law of Moses )
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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Hello Grace777, I'm just sending this as a test. I was attempting to respond to the thread "The purpose of the book of Revelation" and I got a "you have been blocked" message. Is anyone else getting this message?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I love how Paul changed the wording of the Old Covenant to speak about Christ Himself as can be seen in Romans 10:5-6

Paul changed the meaning of Deut. 30:12 to add to the text " ..that is to bring Christ down....that is, to bring Christ up from the dead..." Paul took the language of Deut. 30 and changed it to "speak about Christ Himself".

Paul said in Corinthians that as long as Moses is being read - it causes a veil to be put over the eyes of those that hear it. You can read the Old Covenant and "see Moses" or you can read it by the Holy Spirit and " see Christ Himself".



Paul in Romans also changed the Old Covenant wording in Deut. 30:14 - he exchanged the "in thine hands to do it" which is pure 100% law.

Paul in Romans 10:8-10 changed the wording to " the words of faith" which is speaking out what you believe in order to receive. This is all done by grace through faith alone in Christ's finished work.

Therein is the difference between the Old and New Covenant :

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation and righteousness.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.


Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)

[SUP]8[/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9[/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
Hello Grace777, I'm just sending this as a test. I was attempting to respond to the thread "The purpose of the book of Revelation" and I got a "you have been blocked" message. Is anyone else getting this message?
I can see your message.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
Hello Grace777, I'm just sending this as a test. I was attempting to respond to the thread "The purpose of the book of Revelation" and I got a "you have been blocked" message. Is anyone else getting this message?
Have you tried Raisin Bran.......:eek:
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
I have read the Torah many times. I read it to see Christ in the scriptures.

Tell me - to those that keep the law. Have you stoned any of your children yet when they have dis-obeyed you? Have you stoned any of your relatives that tried to get you away from God yet? Those are in the Torah and yet "supposed" Torah followers break the actual Torah every day in some capacity.

If one is going to live by the law - then he is obligated to live by all of it. There are no "parts" to the Law. Saying that some are for us and some are not is just watering down the Law to make it seem "do-able" but in reality "law-keepers" have a very low respect for the Law and in fact break the law every day.

Romans 10:4-5 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

We have died to the Law SO THAT we might live unto God.

Galatians 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.


There is no justification or right standing with God because one "keeps the law". Christians live by faith - faith in Christ and what He has already done and we live by His life in us now.

Galatians 3:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] Now
that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." ( the law of Moses is NOT of faith )
The Law is NOT of faith and if you practice the Law - you must live by it.

Galatians 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

When we are trying to keep the law of which circumcision is a part of - we are obligated to keep the whole law (
Remember there are NO PARTS to the law - it is either all or live by Christ by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross and resurrection )

Galatians 5:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ in us to lead us into life in Him. Let's eat from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself in us. The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Choose Christ. He is our life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ( NOT in the law of Moses )
Should we stone our Children? I have been waiting for this one to pop up. Those who are under the belief that torah keeping after Salvation is wrong think of this verse as their "gotcha" it is usually a sign they are losing the debate and our trying to use the "nuclear option."

And, it must be said, capital punishments are indeed a part of both old and new testament teachings. Consider the white throne judgement!

Still, the question as presented brings up an emotional response to both parents and those that have them. Rightly so! The goal of asking this question in this way is to EVOKE an emotional response, not to understand either the meaning or understand the application of this command.

It is a favorite of atheists. And it is unfortunate when a professed believer tries to twist YHWH'S word and therefore make YHWH himself out to be absurd or evil. It also makes what the bible calls "beautiful","perfect truth", and "light" into something evil. If this is your understanding of Torah, no wonder you try and reject it!

Instead of making full proof, these believers leave sound scriptural teachings.

2 Timothy 4:2**Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

*3**For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

*4**And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

*5**But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Okay then... So why are there no stonings today? (or other Biblical capital punishment)

The lazy greasy grace (as opposed to true Grace) proponent does not try to understand the meanings, procedures, nor who was involved in these "harsh" commands YHWH gave us in our Schoolmaster Torah, but just skims over it.

These people cannot fulfil verse 2 above. They cannot preach the word they don't know. And human e.otilns and desires do not establish biblical truth.

So how are these capital punishments to be addressed? Lets look at the verse...

Deuteronomy 21:*18**If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

*19**Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

*20**And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

*21**And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

So this is obviously a bit more complicated than "stone your disobedient children"

Right away we see this is talking about a child who is rebelling in the face of consistent parental discipline. This is not some first strike death for minor infractions. Or even if they go through a bad spell of not listening. This is for parents who realize that their children are not correctable by them. So they appeal to the elders of their community for help. And both.parents had to not only agree but also participate.

Even this did not mean instant stoning.

There is a established protocol of the elders for Capital Punishment in Torah.

As someone who has "read Torah many times" I am sure you are aware of it.

There is a court system that met at the city gates. It was established under certain commanded government band structured by and for the laws of Torah and based on its structure and guidelines.

There is not a country on earth (including Israel) that meets the biblical commands or structure for this court system. So it is logistically impossible to take advantage of this command to help save incorrigible children.

It was these courts that were commanded to carry out these judgements and penances up to and including stoning. Not the angry parent.

So if I stoned my child for disobedience. Even back in this system. It would be murder.

A note. There was one sanhedrin (court) who commanded 7 deaths for all israel during a 10 year period....they are still known as "the bloody sanhedrin"

Perhaps you should read Torah again...
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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Hello Dan

It is amazing what you get out of what I say. perhaps it is a cultural thing. I went to UK schools and I assume you went to US.

Or perhaps it is generational. I am not as young as I used to be.

Let's just wade in...
You said:

"so we see that a later prophet, Isaiah, gives us wise words on how to understand Torah, which then modifies how we practice Torah."

This statement about learning deeper things about Torah by following Torah does not in any way "modify" Torah or its practice. It just shows we need to take it as a whole. And then we will begin to gain better understanding of Torah and what it foreshadows .

You go on:
"so Paul gives us teachings about Torah which modify the way we practice it."

Paul in no way modifies Torah... You must show me chapter and verse on that!


You continue: "I believe this is a global modifier that modifies how we practice every commandment, actually every word, in Torah.*

GALATIANS 5:14 For all of Torah is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

This does not modify Torah...it is Torah!

Leviticus 19:18**Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am*יהוה.

This is one of the problems you run into when you do not know the Hebrew Scriptures. You cannot build the roof without the foundation.
Torah says to go to the temple, ancient Israelites did that.

roots folks today don't go to the temple.

the practice is different. what shall we call that?

a modified practice?
an adapted practice?
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
Its not just HRM who is kept from the temple. All observant are. If the temple is reestablished in accordance with Torah HRM people will act accordingly.

Torah is not modified by lack of a temple. Its practice is curtailed. It is a punishment. Torah is a blessing and a joy....
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
The conflict here is that people are using those later words of the apostles (primarily post-Gospel NT writings, specifically by Paul) to invalidate the way that Messiah lived and walked according to Torah. They are essentially saying: That's how Messiah walked, but it's not for me because of what the apostles (chiefly Paul) said. You can't have it both ways: you can't say that the Messiah's walk according to Torah included the later words of wisdom by the apostles about how to carry that out, though in the end he still walked according to the commands' basic-understood sense (don't eat unclean meats means don't eat them, which Messiah never did), but for us, those words of wisdom from the apostles mean not to walk in that manner (i.e., I can eat unclean meats). It's paradoxical, because if His carrying out of the Torah commands included guidance by the Spirit and understanding of the words of wisdom from the later apostles, just as our lives should include, then the result should be that we walk as He did, but the reality is that most Christians do not. He kept kosher, mainstream Christianity does not. Simple as that.

And Messiah certainly did not eat unclean meats. If He did, He would have been in sin, which would have invalidated Him as the Messiah. And it would have been impossible for Peter to have such a strong reaction against the idea of eating unclean meats in Acts 10 if He had walked for three years with a Messiah who casually ate unclean meats from time to time. The disciples walked as He walked, which included how He kept the Torah-Law commands (which include the dietary commands), and we are charged to do the same. If we're not walking after Messiah's example, then whose are we walking after? Some imperfect mere human who came after Him?

I'm not going to respond much to your point about food and Sabbath. Again, you're not even using God's definition of food (what is permissible to eat), but the world's definition. And on Sabbath, this would open a huge can of worms, but the key takeaway is that He wasn't breaking Sabbath, but only breaking man's traditions of Sabbath -- He was making the case that His healing and His disciples picking grains to eat were not violations of the Sabbath command, but we're indeed lawful to do on the Sabbath. He still kept the fourth commandment despite the false accusations from the Pharisees that He broke it. Nowhere does Torah prohibit these things and God's intention was not to prevent them; but those prohibitions were instead Pharisaical inventions, not the will of God. The Messiah cleared up a controversial and debated issue in the society of that time: it's lawful to heal on the Sabbath. He issued what is called halacha: a right ruling of a command. He doesn't dismiss the command; He just brings the correct application.
' He doesn't dismiss the command; He just brings the correct application.'

right! Isaiah, Jesus, Paul, others teach us about the

application

of Torah.



I believe that's an important precedent.

later prophets and apostles have the authority to say
how
we keep and fulfill Torah.