"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws
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If what Paul teaches is correct, and I believe it is, if a person is inclined to eat according to dietary laws it is just fine if done with a clear conscience in the sight of Yahweh. If the same is true for one who eats all in thanksgiving, there is nothing amiss,.
If anyone is suggesting a person should or should not follow dietary laws when they do whatever they do with a clear conscience in the sight of God, that person is teaching law.
May all be blessed in the grace of God and in joyous obedience to Him, for as Pal also teaches, we are converted from disobedience to obedience are we not?
If anyone is suggesting a person should or should not follow dietary laws when they do whatever they do with a clear conscience in the sight of God, that person is teaching law.
May all be blessed in the grace of God and in joyous obedience to Him, for as Pal also teaches, we are converted from disobedience to obedience are we not?
Believers in Christ are not under the law of Moses anymore. We are under grace which are different laws that we live by.
The law of love, the law of faith, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, the law of liberty , the law of Christ Himself.
Romans 3:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 6:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Paul did some law of Moses things sot hat he could save some of them by appearing to be like them. He said he was not under the law but still under the law of Christ. Folks there is a vast difference between being under the law of Moses and being under the law of Christ Himself.
1 Corinthians 9:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; ( here Paul is saying that he is not under the law )
[SUP]21 [/SUP] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
The law was for the Jews for a specific time and it did it's job - to go back to the law for life and living is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord Jesus. He is the One we are "joined to now".
Do not desert Christ for the law of Moses. We can trust Him now as we are joined as one spirit with Him for eternity. 1 Cor. 6:17
Galatians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
The law of love, the law of faith, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, the law of liberty , the law of Christ Himself.
Romans 3:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 6:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Paul did some law of Moses things sot hat he could save some of them by appearing to be like them. He said he was not under the law but still under the law of Christ. Folks there is a vast difference between being under the law of Moses and being under the law of Christ Himself.
1 Corinthians 9:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; ( here Paul is saying that he is not under the law )
[SUP]21 [/SUP] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
The law was for the Jews for a specific time and it did it's job - to go back to the law for life and living is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord Jesus. He is the One we are "joined to now".
Do not desert Christ for the law of Moses. We can trust Him now as we are joined as one spirit with Him for eternity. 1 Cor. 6:17
Galatians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
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F
Grandpa my friend. I have never said i am under the law. I have constantly said I am
Under Grace.
As much as you want me to be under the law I just cannot do it for you.
The law is our schoolmaster. For us to learn his way.
If you learned maths in school, once you matriculated did numbers and thier manipulation change? Of course not. However you were no longer graded on your work by your maths master.
Really. It is silly how you want me to promote Torah for salvation. I just remember what I learned in school.
Under Grace.
As much as you want me to be under the law I just cannot do it for you.
The law is our schoolmaster. For us to learn his way.
If you learned maths in school, once you matriculated did numbers and thier manipulation change? Of course not. However you were no longer graded on your work by your maths master.
Really. It is silly how you want me to promote Torah for salvation. I just remember what I learned in school.
LOL. You are under grace, but you live by the Law you are not under?
M
LOL. You are under grace, but you live by the Law you are not under?
I notice you haven't replied to the question you accused me of... but that you are shifting focus once more from questions whose answers you do not want to admit. No matter. As I said I really don't care. I shall reply to your comment.
FNC.
Yes.
I am under Grace. I call on the name of Yahshua.
Romans 3:31**Do we then make void the law through faith? By no means: yea, we establish the law.
So those of us who have faith in the Grace of Messiah establish the law.
Romans 6:1**What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that favour may abound?
*2**By no means. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
What is sin?
1 John 3:4**Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
Lets Continue In Romans 6
Romans 6:*11**Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto*יהוה*through Yahushua the Messiah our Saviour.
*12**Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
*13**Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto*יהוה, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto*יהוה.
*14**For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under favour.
*15**What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under favour? By no means.
*16**Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
So your mockery does not bother me. And yes I am under Grace and try not to sin.
You will n ever receive a response from these people who have rewritten laws for others to follow, just accusations.
You choose to follow God's will according to Jesus Christ, as best you are able, knowing you are saved by grace and grace only.
The deluded by grace folks will never admit to the truth that the true childre of the Most High God are children of obedience. For the deluded grace only folks being obedient is being under the law and saving yourself without the Blood of Jesus Christ.
It is true, there is a spirit of delusion over the fae of this world causing all who have loved evil to believe lies. Keep up the obedience under grace............we are not children of disobedience..
You choose to follow God's will according to Jesus Christ, as best you are able, knowing you are saved by grace and grace only.
The deluded by grace folks will never admit to the truth that the true childre of the Most High God are children of obedience. For the deluded grace only folks being obedient is being under the law and saving yourself without the Blood of Jesus Christ.
It is true, there is a spirit of delusion over the fae of this world causing all who have loved evil to believe lies. Keep up the obedience under grace............we are not children of disobedience..
Have the Torah obedient people stoned their children yet for being disobedient as the law says?
Have the Torah obedient people stoned those of their relatives that tell them to not follow God?
There are a lot of things like this that the "Torah obedient" have not done and thus have violated the whole law as James says.
God Himself said that they were to follow "all" that He said for them in the law to do - then all these curses will come upon them - some offenses you get stoned for.
No? We didn't think so. Obviously being under grace does NOT have anything to do with the law of Moses. Mix that up and we end up ruining both the Old Covenant - which now obsolete - and the New Covenant. We end up with a works-based religion which gives "mental assent" to being in grace but it actually denies the Lord Jesus Christ Himself - by denying His finished work on the cross and resurrection.
Although I don't put all Hebrew Roots people as being the same. There are some extreme sects which say we must keep the law of Moses, Sabbath days, festivals...etc. or we are dis-obeying God and of course this is sinning. These are the Judaizers that Paul refuted and stood against.
There are others that observe things because that is what they want to do and they are free to do so in Christ. We also have the law of liberty in Christ. These others have great things to show how Christ fulfilled the law and in showing Christ in the Hebrew scriptures. That is beautiful.
Then there are those that for some strange reason try to change themselves into being Jewish when they are clearly gentiles. They take up with Jewish names for things and try to speak and appear as if they were from a Jewish ethnic background.
They have a messed up identity and our only true identity is in Christ Himself. I believe they have good hearts and most do mean well but are messed up in their minds about the new creation in Christ.
They think that when people say we are not under the law - that everyone will go wild now. The law of the spirit of life in Christ and the love of God within us is what we live by now and His life in us transforms us by the Holy Spirit to live godly lives. Grace teaches us how to live godly - NOT the law of Moses. Titus 2:11-12
These Judaziers have the very same belief system as works-based salvationists which is why some times they band together. I noticed that they never refute each other because essentially they have the same message. Work-based mindsets instead of the gospel of the grace of Christ.
These are in reality replacing Christ for the law of Moses/works - the very same thing that works-based believers do although both groups do give "lip service" to Christ and the message of grace that Paul preached because it is hard to get around these.
Not all Hebrew Roots people are in this same boat - just the extreme sect that says " We must follow the law of Moses or we are sinning and not obeying God".These types run from - as they are perverting the gospel of the grace of Christ.
Have the Torah obedient people stoned those of their relatives that tell them to not follow God?
There are a lot of things like this that the "Torah obedient" have not done and thus have violated the whole law as James says.
God Himself said that they were to follow "all" that He said for them in the law to do - then all these curses will come upon them - some offenses you get stoned for.
No? We didn't think so. Obviously being under grace does NOT have anything to do with the law of Moses. Mix that up and we end up ruining both the Old Covenant - which now obsolete - and the New Covenant. We end up with a works-based religion which gives "mental assent" to being in grace but it actually denies the Lord Jesus Christ Himself - by denying His finished work on the cross and resurrection.
Although I don't put all Hebrew Roots people as being the same. There are some extreme sects which say we must keep the law of Moses, Sabbath days, festivals...etc. or we are dis-obeying God and of course this is sinning. These are the Judaizers that Paul refuted and stood against.
There are others that observe things because that is what they want to do and they are free to do so in Christ. We also have the law of liberty in Christ. These others have great things to show how Christ fulfilled the law and in showing Christ in the Hebrew scriptures. That is beautiful.
Then there are those that for some strange reason try to change themselves into being Jewish when they are clearly gentiles. They take up with Jewish names for things and try to speak and appear as if they were from a Jewish ethnic background.
They have a messed up identity and our only true identity is in Christ Himself. I believe they have good hearts and most do mean well but are messed up in their minds about the new creation in Christ.
They think that when people say we are not under the law - that everyone will go wild now. The law of the spirit of life in Christ and the love of God within us is what we live by now and His life in us transforms us by the Holy Spirit to live godly lives. Grace teaches us how to live godly - NOT the law of Moses. Titus 2:11-12
These Judaziers have the very same belief system as works-based salvationists which is why some times they band together. I noticed that they never refute each other because essentially they have the same message. Work-based mindsets instead of the gospel of the grace of Christ.
These are in reality replacing Christ for the law of Moses/works - the very same thing that works-based believers do although both groups do give "lip service" to Christ and the message of grace that Paul preached because it is hard to get around these.
Not all Hebrew Roots people are in this same boat - just the extreme sect that says " We must follow the law of Moses or we are sinning and not obeying God".These types run from - as they are perverting the gospel of the grace of Christ.
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Being "obedient to the faith" is believing in Christ and His work for us for life and living.
Notice here that even the law-keeping priests need to be "obedient to the faith". The keeping of the law of Moses is NOT the same as being "obedient to the faith".
Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests werebecoming obedient to the faith.
Pagans/Gentiles also need to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ and what He has done for life and living.
Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
All people of all types are called to be "obedient to the faith" - which is belief in Christ alone for life and living.
Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
Notice here that even the law-keeping priests need to be "obedient to the faith". The keeping of the law of Moses is NOT the same as being "obedient to the faith".
Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests werebecoming obedient to the faith.
Pagans/Gentiles also need to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ and what He has done for life and living.
Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
All people of all types are called to be "obedient to the faith" - which is belief in Christ alone for life and living.
Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
Being obedient to the faith is walking righteously, doing the right thing, looking to Christ,
following our Lord.
The problem G7 has is to say you should do the right thing but only because you believe
in Christ, not because you gain anything as a result. If you gain something that is thought
of as selfish benefit so polluting the deed and making it evil.
Following this approach it is almost impossible to do anything.
I had a real vision. God came for the simplest and most complex equally. So everything must
be simple. And for the simple the simple thing to do is the right thing because you love them.
Funny this is also true to the most complex. So all this analysis about why or checking who is
inspiring you is just for the birds, it is all about seeing the need and meeting it. If you had any
experience of walking this way, without Christ you simply cannot do it, which means there is no
need analysing, if you are still loving and walking, you are walking in the Spirit.
following our Lord.
The problem G7 has is to say you should do the right thing but only because you believe
in Christ, not because you gain anything as a result. If you gain something that is thought
of as selfish benefit so polluting the deed and making it evil.
Following this approach it is almost impossible to do anything.
I had a real vision. God came for the simplest and most complex equally. So everything must
be simple. And for the simple the simple thing to do is the right thing because you love them.
Funny this is also true to the most complex. So all this analysis about why or checking who is
inspiring you is just for the birds, it is all about seeing the need and meeting it. If you had any
experience of walking this way, without Christ you simply cannot do it, which means there is no
need analysing, if you are still loving and walking, you are walking in the Spirit.
[h=3]Romans 12:1 (KJV)[/h]
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that ye present your bodies aliving sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
which is your reasonable service.
that ye present your bodies aliving sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
which is your reasonable service.
S
Here is my perspective:
Briefly, with Romans 6 in focus where Paul directly contrasts "under the Torah-Law" (Greek, hypo nomon) and "under grace" (Greek, hypo charin), "under the Torah-Law" means subject to its penalty; the ultimate penalty (wage of sin, i.e., violating the Torah-Law; 1 John 3:4) being death. "Under grace" means not subject to the penalty of breaking the Torah-Law; grace is God's free and unmerited pardon. Romans 6 makes it quite clear that Paul's contrast of being "under the Law" vs. being "under grace" has to do with punishment and pardon. You are either subject to the Torah-Law's punishment, or you accept God's grace-pardon through faith in the Messiah. Paul is not comparing keeping the Torah-Law commands (incorrectly defined as "under the law") to not keeping the Torah-Law commands (incorrectly defined as "under grace"). Your personal definition of "under the Law" means observing the commands of the Torah-Law. I do not believe this is Paul's definition in Romans 6.
It shouldn't be too difficult for us to understand, as we have a similar phrase in English. When we say someone is "above the law", it means they are untouchable and cannot can prosecuted for their crimes (like a politician who breaks the law but is not convicted because of their elite status or influence). The opposite would be the person who is "under the law", which means subject to the standard punishment for breaking the law. Neither the person who is "above the law" nor "under the law" has the right to break the law, but the difference is the person "above the law" will not be punished while the person "under the law" will be punished. Through Messiah, we are "above the law," so to speak, and not under it, but this does not give us the right to break the law (Rom. 6:1).
Applying this understanding to Romans 6:
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law (subject to its punishment), but under grace (having God's grace-pardon). Rom.6:14 (NIV)
What then? Shall we sin (violate the Torah-Law) because we are not under the law (subject to its punishment) but under grace (having God's grace pardon)? By no means! -- Rom. 6:15 (NIV)
The Torah-Law defines sin (Rom. 7:7; 1 John 3:4; et al.). To continue breaking the Torah-Law (which shows us our sins prior to accepting Messiah) after accepting God's grace-pardon is to continue sinning, which we are told not to do (Rom. 6:1). Paul never uses a different operative definition of sin: it is always understood as breaking God's commands.
This is how someone can be "under grace, and not under the Law, but still living by the Law you are not under." This scenario does not violate the theology of Paul's letter to the Romans. Read it again with that in mind and then take some time to reflect on it. Happy to continue discussing it and Pauline theology.
Briefly, with Romans 6 in focus where Paul directly contrasts "under the Torah-Law" (Greek, hypo nomon) and "under grace" (Greek, hypo charin), "under the Torah-Law" means subject to its penalty; the ultimate penalty (wage of sin, i.e., violating the Torah-Law; 1 John 3:4) being death. "Under grace" means not subject to the penalty of breaking the Torah-Law; grace is God's free and unmerited pardon. Romans 6 makes it quite clear that Paul's contrast of being "under the Law" vs. being "under grace" has to do with punishment and pardon. You are either subject to the Torah-Law's punishment, or you accept God's grace-pardon through faith in the Messiah. Paul is not comparing keeping the Torah-Law commands (incorrectly defined as "under the law") to not keeping the Torah-Law commands (incorrectly defined as "under grace"). Your personal definition of "under the Law" means observing the commands of the Torah-Law. I do not believe this is Paul's definition in Romans 6.
It shouldn't be too difficult for us to understand, as we have a similar phrase in English. When we say someone is "above the law", it means they are untouchable and cannot can prosecuted for their crimes (like a politician who breaks the law but is not convicted because of their elite status or influence). The opposite would be the person who is "under the law", which means subject to the standard punishment for breaking the law. Neither the person who is "above the law" nor "under the law" has the right to break the law, but the difference is the person "above the law" will not be punished while the person "under the law" will be punished. Through Messiah, we are "above the law," so to speak, and not under it, but this does not give us the right to break the law (Rom. 6:1).
Applying this understanding to Romans 6:
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law (subject to its punishment), but under grace (having God's grace-pardon). Rom.6:14 (NIV)
What then? Shall we sin (violate the Torah-Law) because we are not under the law (subject to its punishment) but under grace (having God's grace pardon)? By no means! -- Rom. 6:15 (NIV)
The Torah-Law defines sin (Rom. 7:7; 1 John 3:4; et al.). To continue breaking the Torah-Law (which shows us our sins prior to accepting Messiah) after accepting God's grace-pardon is to continue sinning, which we are told not to do (Rom. 6:1). Paul never uses a different operative definition of sin: it is always understood as breaking God's commands.
This is how someone can be "under grace, and not under the Law, but still living by the Law you are not under." This scenario does not violate the theology of Paul's letter to the Romans. Read it again with that in mind and then take some time to reflect on it. Happy to continue discussing it and Pauline theology.
If you are not free from breaking the law then you are not in faith but still a slave to the works of the flesh. No rest just work and the wages of that work is death.
We all start out slaves to sin. It is no great salvation when one speaks of being saved while still in their natural born condition.
but Jesus came to free us and He is able. The carnal heart always breaks the law because it is not subject to it. Thus only condemnation and death await the carnal heart.
But the Spiritual is free from this restraint in Christ. They keep the law by nature because Christ has made the tree good thus it bears good fruit. Just as we were all born a bad tree and thus all brought fourth bad fruit/breaking the law. We did this by our very nature. So now if one is truly made a good tree by Christ then one will by nature, the very nature given by Christ bring fourth good fruit/law abiding. Not be works of the flesh but by the working of God as it is written. It is God who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Notice not just to will but also to do. anything less than total transformation is a false gospel.
We all start out slaves to sin. It is no great salvation when one speaks of being saved while still in their natural born condition.
but Jesus came to free us and He is able. The carnal heart always breaks the law because it is not subject to it. Thus only condemnation and death await the carnal heart.
But the Spiritual is free from this restraint in Christ. They keep the law by nature because Christ has made the tree good thus it bears good fruit. Just as we were all born a bad tree and thus all brought fourth bad fruit/breaking the law. We did this by our very nature. So now if one is truly made a good tree by Christ then one will by nature, the very nature given by Christ bring fourth good fruit/law abiding. Not be works of the flesh but by the working of God as it is written. It is God who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Notice not just to will but also to do. anything less than total transformation is a false gospel.