Torah Study

[Dan_473]

Modern ideas about how history is written? Please don't give me that!

Adam and Eve and their children for a time were farmers, but we're told that animal husbandry was invented by Lamech's son, Jabal.
Genesis 4:20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the first of those who live in tents and keep livestock.

well, that's how it looks to me... I think Jabal's an excellent example... did abel keep livestock before jabel?

Animals definitely ate animals prior to the Great Flood, because fossils show them fighting, eating, digesting each other! Did God say it was 'good'? No. Did He allow it? Yes. Could humanity have eaten meat prior to the Flood? Absolutely, but not for those who were true to the one true God. I hope this helps.

I take the 'given' to be similar to how animals are 'given' into human hands... so, imo, it's not something that humans could 'take' on their own...

the fossils... well, maybe they were post-flood?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I've wondered if the 'I have given you' is a command that could be broken,

or does it mean that animals were, say, poisonous at this time...

(oddly, today, most parts of most animals are edible, while just some parts of some plants...)

another thing i always wondered about is if God ever intended for people to eat fungi such as mushrooms...there is no biblical record of God giving fungi to humans as food in the way he did with green plants and animals...and coincidentally it seems like a disproportionate percentage of mushroom species are poisonous compared to the green plants and animals...

 

[Tintin]

well, that's how it looks to me... I think Jabal's an excellent example... did abel keep livestock before jabel?




I take the 'given' to be similar to how animals are 'given' into human hands... so, imo, it's not something that humans could 'take' on their own...

the fossils... well, maybe they were post-flood?

I get the impression that Abel kept livestock, but that Jabal was the first to keep livestock whilst living a nomadic lifestyle (hence, why it's mentioned that Jabal was the 'father' of those who live in tents).

As for the fossils. Sure, some are from post-Flood periods, but the vast, vast majority of them must be from the Great Flood period. Fossilization requires very exact conditions and requirements. It doesn't just happen.

 

[Tintin]

another thing i always wondered about is if God ever intended for people to eat fungi such as mushrooms...there is no biblical record of God giving fungi to humans as food in the way he did with green plants and animals...and coincidentally it seems like a disproportionate percentage of mushroom species are poisonous compared to the green plants and animals...

I wouldn't have a clue. How quickly can fungi grow? Perhaps it was a plentiful food source in the very, very early post-Flood period, when the world was recovering from the greatest tragedy it had ever seen (besides the Fall itself).

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I wouldn't have a clue. How quickly can fungi grow? Perhaps it was a plentiful food source in the very, very early post-Flood period, when the world was recovering from the greatest tragedy it had ever seen (besides the Fall itself).

fungi are decomposers...they feed on decaying matter...that might put them in the same category as a lot of 'unclean' animals such as vultures and bottom feeding fish...

 

[BarlyGurl]

in genesis 1 it says that God gave the humans and animals every green plant for food...

it is not until after the flood that there is a record in scripture of God giving people permission to eat meat...

so it sounds like they did not eat meat before the flood...although i suppose it is possible that some people might have disobediently eaten meat...

Yes thanks Rachel, When I made that first post I just stepped into the thread, I did go back and attempt to catch up from post #1. I have not read all the posts but did get up to where you mentioned this issue... around page 3 or 4 I think.

So I do have some questions for you. How is it that you are willing to make certain inferences about other specifics but at the same time you refute the idea that "skin coats" are a reference to God KILLING animals to make coverings for A&E?

God is the same today and yesterday he does not CHANGE.
Hebrews 9:22[SUP] [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

We know that JESUS has existed eternal and was present "in the beginning" yet we are not introduced to JESUS until later in the scriptures.

So I hope I am being clear enough in my example... I am wondering WHY you mention the God made "skin coats" and add, many people believe this was the first killing.... but then insert the alternative that the "skin coats" were just "magically" created by God out of the dirt or nothing or whatever you meant.

A&E had ALREADY covered themselves (without killing) if God did not KILL to obtain "Skins" I have no problem concluding if NO Killing was intended then God would have "woven fibers" to make coats. SKINS is very specific and if you are wearing the SKIN of another living creature... that creature is DEAD.

Can you elaborate here?

 

[Tintin]

fungi are decomposers...they feed on decaying matter...that might put them in the same category as a lot of 'unclean' animals such as vultures and bottom feeding fish...

Ah, a good food-source for many of the animals then. Thanks, Rachel.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Yes thanks Rachel, When I made that first post I just stepped into the thread, I did go back and attempt to catch up from post #1. I have not read all the posts but did get up to where you mentioned this issue... around page 3 or 4 I think.

So I do have some questions for you. How is it that you are willing to make certain inferences about other specifics but at the same time you refute the idea that "skin coats" are a reference to God KILLING animals to make coverings for A&E?

God is the same today and yesterday he does not CHANGE.
Hebrews 9:22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

We know that JESUS has existed eternal and was present "in the beginning" yet we are not introduced to JESUS until later in the scriptures.

So I hope I am being clear enough in my example... I am wondering WHY you mention the God made "skin coats" and add, many people believe this was the first killing.... but then insert the alternative that the "skin coats" were just "magically" created by God out of the dirt or nothing or whatever you meant.

A&E had ALREADY covered themselves (without killing) if God did not KILL to obtain "Skins" I have no problem concluding if NO Killing was intended then God would have "woven fibers" to make coats. SKINS is very specific and if you are wearing the SKIN of another living creature... that creature is DEAD.

Can you elaborate here?

well i am not rejecting the idea that God killed animals to make clothes out of skins for adam and eve...i am just saying it is not certain enough to be dogmatic about it...because it rests on some assumptions...

for example you have cited hebrews 9:22...but the text of genesis 3 does not actually say that remission of sin was the goal...it -might- have been...but i prefer not to be dogmatic about 'maybes'...

if you want to believe this is how it happened then that is fine...in fact i think it is more likely than not...but i don't want to -insist- on it...

 

[Dan_473]

Sacrifices may not have been a regular thing, but it's doubtful that they were a rarity. Do you really think Adam and Eve would wait 130 years to have more children? eg. Seth and other sons and daughters? God told them to be fruitful and to multiply. They would have 'known' each other quite well, I would think.

I think those are possible... the details aren't there in the story... imo...

Labour is cursed in the sense that work would be much more difficult and not always enjoyable, as it would've been before the Fall. Cain would've been good at farming and Abel good with animals, but that doesn't negate the fact that life (work, rest and play) was very different, following the Fall.

as I read it, God curses the ground and prophecies that adam will sweat when working the ground...

I don't think it says if other labor is cursed...

so maybe all labor was cursed, or maybe just the ground...

 

[Dan_473]

Some speculations can be inferred from the text and so they're warranted.

if you want to post some examples, I'm interested...

Don't forget that the New Testament references the Book of Genesis upwards of 160 times. And sometimes those many references add additional details to what we know from Genesis.

good! anything from the nt that talks about the things we're talking about?

 

[Dan_473]

Meat = animal death. There was no sin and death before the Fall.

what's your take then on after the fall but before the flood for this?

 

[Dan_473]

another thing i always wondered about is if God ever intended for people to eat fungi such as mushrooms...there is no biblical record of God giving fungi to humans as food in the way he did with green plants and animals...and coincidentally it seems like a disproportionate percentage of mushroom species are poisonous compared to the green plants and animals...

excellent question! I'd assumed that the hebrew for 'green plant' meant anything that sprouted out of the ground... but I don't know...

the 'eat every green plant' is before the fall... maybe part of the curse on the ground is that most plants now become un-eatable... adam and eve now can't eat the thorns and thistles...

I can't think of a place where the 'every green plant for food' is undone... yet, of all the plants on earth today, only some are eatable, and then usually only parts...

 

[Dan_473]

I get the impression that Abel kept livestock, but that Jabal was the first to keep livestock whilst living a nomadic lifestyle (hence, why it's mentioned that Jabal was the 'father' of those who live in tents).

sure, a possible interpretation, I'll give you that...

to me, it says that the history is not told in a linear fashion, like we expect today...

As for the fossils. Sure, some are from post-Flood periods, but the vast, vast majority of them must be from the Great Flood period. Fossilization requires very exact conditions and requirements. It doesn't just happen.

the conditions post-flood could not have produced many fossils? do tell... plz...

 

[Tintin]

I think those are possible... the details aren't there in the story... imo...




as I read it, God curses the ground and prophecies that adam will sweat when working the ground...

I don't think it says if other labor is cursed...

so maybe all labor was cursed, or maybe just the ground...

Yes, the ground was cursed, but sin and death and their consequences speak of everything becoming more difficult and unpleasant - including labour. It's not a stretch.

As for what Adam and Eve got up too. Sure, it's an inference, but it's not a speculative one. For example, Adam and Eve had to have other children for Cain to have a wife when God banished him. It's not difficult.

 

[Tintin]

if you want to post some examples, I'm interested...

good! anything from the nt that talks about the things we're talking about?

I've already mentioned some speculations based on inferences. As for New Testament verses that reference the Book of Genesis and sometimes add additional details, there are too many to list. But I have a link that will help you greatly. Find the chapter you want and then look at the right-most column for the relevant NT verses.

Genesis Verse by Verse - creation.com

 

[Tintin]

what's your take then on after the fall but before the flood for this?

As I mentioned before, I believe sin and death entered Creation at the Fall. Humans would've killed animals. Some animals would've killed and have eaten animals and even humans. Some humans would've eaten animals, but not those who were true to God, because He forbade it prior to the Great Flood. They would've subsisted on plants, fruit, nuts, grains and maybe milk, cheeses, eggs etc. But no meat.

 

[Tintin]

sure, a possible interpretation, I'll give you that...

to me, it says that the history is not told in a linear fashion, like we expect today...

the conditions post-flood could not have produced many fossils? do tell... plz...

History is generally told in a linear fashion. For example, Abel existed a few generations before Jabal. But yes, the Hebrew historical narrative sometimes told a story in a linear fashion, then part way went through they go back and add more details, then continue the story (for example the Flood account of Noah). Also, the tower of Babel story is told after the dispersal of the nations, but we know from the context that particular passage in Chapter 11 happens before the events of Chapter 10. But history is still linear.

As for the conditions that are required to produce fossils, it's too complicated to address here (without derailing the thread, and I don't want that). Check out websites like: Creation Ministries International, Answers in Genesis and The Institute for Creation Research. Search using the keyword 'fossils' or something similar.

 

[BarlyGurl]

As I mentioned before, I believe sin and death entered Creation at the Fall. Humans would've killed animals. Some animals would've killed and have eaten animals and even humans. Some humans would've eaten animals, but not those who were true to God, because He forbade it prior to the Great Flood. They would've subsisted on plants, fruit, nuts, grains and maybe milk, cheeses, eggs etc. But no meat.

I notice you are persisting with "maybe" eggs.... but not meat. Cheeses? What does that mean to YOU exactly? How do you perceive A&E family eating cheese?

 

[Tintin]

I notice you are persisting with "maybe" eggs.... but not meat. Cheeses? What does that mean to YOU exactly? How do you perceive A&E family eating cheese?

I really don't see why you insist on calling eggs 'meat'. As for cheeses, what do they mean to me? They're a delicious animal product, but again, they're not meat. How do I perceive Adam and Eve and family eating cheese? I don't know. They weren't stupid, they were far more intelligent than us and they lived much longer lives. They had plenty of time to experiment and to invent new things and there were plenty of animals available to them. And meat wasn't on the menu.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Well Tintin...I don't see why you insist eggs are NOT meat... which is why I mentioned it... so if you could explain how it is that eggs are not meat I would like to know.