Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[zone]

THANK YOU!

Excellent example.

What's weird is that absolute depravity in this respects is an argument that nullifies itself, because if it were to be true, God would have never created us to have a mind to sin because in that aspect, it automatically granted us a choice to do what is right and what is wrong.

Or

Depravity, we would have all come to die - the second death as the bible calls it which is destruction of our souls.

No and's if's or but's - total anihillation.

Depravity is like the #1 Atheist argument I've encountered as to God being unfair and tyrannical - so I was very shocked to see this even questioned on a Christian website lol.

why must a man be born again?
will he enter the kingdom without it?

please answer this question.....why a second birth?

what is the FIRST RESURRECTION?

 

[jimmydiggs]

Depravity is like the #1 Atheist argument I've encountered as to God being unfair and tyrannical - so I was very shocked to see this even questioned on a Christian website lol.

The root issue, is that God doesn't do what they wish he would do, and so they react quite strongly to that. Just read these forums, plenty of pink and blue usernames on here do the same.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski

The problem is not so much with a lot of your pure doctrine according to scripture, it is the ideal, but it does not allow for the humanity of man, or for the working out practically of Grace in the Christians life.
I bet to you, as soon as a person becomes a Christian they can immediately cease all sin. I am afraid you can only see the literal letter, and not all of that:

There has to be a death for rebirth to take place. The death is not some abstract concept of the mind, it is an actual event which takes place.

The OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The freedom from sin is contingent on that happening. The old man cannot be reformed, the old man must die once and for all.

Jesus taught that new wine cannot be placed in old wine skins. It is the same with a sinner coming to salvation. A grain of wheat MUST DIE otherwise it abides alone, it is only when it dies that it can bear much fruit.

James stated this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

You are saying the opposite. You are saying that you don't have to lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. If a thief does not have to lay aside their theft in order to receive the implanted word then James is a LIAR.

Can't you see how you are making an allowance for ongoing rebellion? You ignore vast amounts of scripture and will pull select verses out of context to make this allowance. That is dangerous because you are convincing yourself that you can be a hearer and not a doer.

If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal 2:16&17

Paul is not saying there by any stretch of the imagination a person puts the flesh to death and lives a sinless life upon conversion. I am afraid if that is what you believe you cannot see beyond some of the literal letter.

You are trying to twist the death of the old man into some sort of "partial" suppression.

Jesus said YOU MUST LOSE YOUR LIFE FOR HIS SAKE.

Jesus said A GRAIN OF WHEAT MUST DIE.

Paul said OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED.

Paul said that THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST's HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH ITS PASSIONS AND DESIRES.

How much clearer could it be?

I am not talking about never making a mistake (if that is what you mean by sinless), i am simply stating that the REBELLION CEASES.

A person becomes a Christian, much sin they can immediately cease, but what of the sin that wraps itself so tightly around them? Deeply ingrained sin they have been afflicted by for many years? Do you preach that all of this immediately vanishes?

The whole purpose of "dying with Christ" is to set one free from this "deeply ingrained sin." A serial killer or a child molester does not give up their sin by degrees, molest a few less children this year or kill a few less people next year. Yes an extreme example but that is the logical conclusion of what you are saying isn't it?

Peter wrote this...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

CEASED FROM SIN. Why? Because HE NO LONGER SHOULD LIVE THE REST OF HIS TIME IN THE FLESH TO THE LUSTS OF MEN.

One has either been set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust or they have not. One is either locked in a jail cell or they are not.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Having ESCAPED what? How many scriptures do you have to ignore or explain away?

So to Paul, once someone starts out on their Christian walk it is plain they are a sinner. Why does he ask. 'Does Christ promote sin?

Here is what Paul actually states...

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Grace abounds when sin abounds but that does not mean if you are yielding to sin that grace COVERS you. No, it simply means that God is longsuffering and patient and wants you to repent.

Paul also said this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yet you are saying that a new Christian is still a sinner in the sense of yielding to the flesh and disobeying God? Where is that in the Bible? It isn't!

Because to Paul you are saved by grace through faith, and you are saved despite your imperfections, and what may well be glaring sin that needs to urgently be dealt with as you begin your Christian walk. Now if you saw someone rejoicing in their Christianity, despite glaring sin in their life, what will you think(if you are honest)
That person is promoting Sin. They are rejoicing in their salvation while blatantly committing what to you is unacceptable sin. But the new convert is weak:
While we were yet without strength Christ sdied for the ungodly
Rom5:6

Look at what you are doing. You are trying to defend the continuation of rebellion. I can show you lots of scripture which says the opposite of what you are saying and yet you cannot show me scripture which proves your assertion.

Yes Christ died for the ungodly. Yet that does not mean He dies so we can continue in rebellion. God forbid, that is turning grace into a license to sin.

You cannot take snippets of scripture and try to read a theology into it. You have to accept the Bible for what it plainly states building precept upon precept. If you do not do that then you are constructing an IMAGE of God in your mind and you are BOWING DOWN TO THE IMAGE. Don't do that!


But you would expect the new convert to immediately cease all sin wouldn't you? Be honest!

Paul proves the point in the next verse
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
In other words, if the new convert believes the sin has to be dealt with in order for them to be a Christian(has to be according to law) they will fail and simply prove they are a lawbreaker
That is the spiritual reality.

Good grief. Stop it! You are deceiving yourself. Read the whole passage...

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul is talking about going back to the law to establish one's righteousness. He is not speaking about what you are asserting. READ THE TEXT.

It is error to seek to be justified by the law, that was what the Galatians were being lured into. Paul was teaching that we are justified through abiding in Jesus Christ (Gal 2:20-21) and not the outward deeds of the law. If one is abiding in Christ and then is to turn back to the law then grace is received in vain. This is why Paul is so detailed about walking according to the Spirit by a faith that works by love in chapter 5. Read the whole letter and don't take little snippets and try and fit them in with what you believe.

And if a person does take the view that the sin has to be dealt with for them to be acceptable to God be a Christian, they are under law, for the law can condemn them How erroneous. Sin must be dealt with. Jesus preached REPENTANCE. Paul taught this...

Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Read that passage above again. Your telling me that "having to deal with sin" is returning to the law? Not even close!

The law was a set of rules and regulations which could only clean the outside of the cup. Do not murder! Ok, I won't murder, am I righteous? NO! Not if you hate your brother. The law only regulates the OUTER MAN.

Righteousness is of the HEART. We yield to God by faith and thus the righteousness of God is manifest through us for God purifies our heart. Thus we DON'T MURDER because it is the OPPOSITE OF OUR NATURE. Love fulfills the law. If one tries to be justified by rules and regulations then it is vanity because it simply does not address the heart.

Read the Scriptures with that in mind. Outer Works absent of a PURE HEART are VANITY. The Pharisees has the OUTWARD WORKS but they were DEFILED WITHIN. Thus their OUTWARD WORKS were worthless.

Christianity is about heart purity. Not being cloaked in your filthiness. No way, don't be deceived for the UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM.

Spurgeon wrote that he had seen prostitutes change, their hearts become pure as the driven snow, alcoholics too. But he did not preach instant perrfection, but victory through faith in Christ. He also said we all have sins to mourn over the whole of our lives, but some sins, if not dealt with would be fatal. That is because Charles Spurgeon was a false teacher. He held to reformed doctrines. STOP LISTENING TO MEN AND DIG DEEP INTO THE BIBLE. Jesus warned that MANY FALSE PROPHETS WOULD COME IN HIS NAME AND THEY WOULD DECEIVE MANY. Don't take that warning lightly.

When Jeremiah, Isaiah, Exekiel walked the earth the religious establishment was corrupted and apostate. When Jesus and the apostles walked the earth the religious establishment was corrupted and apostate. Do you really think it is any different today?

You see, you cannot just read the literal letter, you have to understand the heart of what it contains, and allow for the outworkings of the Gosdpel of Grace, and the higher poibnts of the law
For you are not perfect, of that I am positive Yes the letter kills and the Spirit brings life (2Cor 3:6) but that does not negate the PLAIN WORDS OF SCRIPTURE.

On another website, an American woman said that half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to 'holiness' churches.
If you properly understood Rom7:7-11 you would know why that is. The reason is that the holiness churches do not preach the crucifixion of the flesh where the passions and desires are crucified once and for all. Thus they have converts bringing their old man along for the ride and they try to reform him gradually through the second work of grace they teach. BOTH the reformed tradition and the arminian (holiness) are in error. They are both built on the premise of Original Sin which completely redefines the Gospel. This is STRONG DELUSION we are talking about here.

Romans 7 is not an illustration of the present Christian walk. Romans 7 is an illustration of a man under the law who is carnal and sold under sin who is being brought under conviction and needs to be delivered from his sin. False teachers twist that passage into a support text of ongoing rebellion in the Christian walk. That is a doctrine of Satan.

Satan has but one battering ram to hurt the genuine convert, the law, in other words make them gicve up, believing they are not good enough for God, that is his only weapon when you think about it.
I am afraid that what you preach will simply vring many a sincere person to in effect be under law.

Yes, for sin shall not be your master, for you are not under laqw but underGreace.
But there is a huge difference between sin not being a persons master, and them living a life of sinless perfection. I have not stated a single thing about "sinless perfection," those are your words and not mine. Paul taught that we are slaves to whom we obey, we either obey sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16). YOU CANNOT DO BOTH.

Jesus said if you sin you are a slave to sin (Joh 8:34) and He taught that He can set you free indeed (Joh 8:36). Are you free indeed?

Jesus said
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, for he has annointed me to preach the good news to the poor
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
And recovery of sight to the blind
To release the oppressed
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord
Luke4-16-18 Yes, RELEASE. Yes, FREEDOM. Not the continuing bondage to sin. Satan wants you to think that the bondage continues because he knows you will lose your soul if you refuse to repent and thus remain in that state.

I'm sorry, but much of what byou preach, will crush people, and oppress them, it does not allow for the outworking of the Gospel, nor does it allow for the higher points of the law

What I preach does not allow for the continuation of rebellion with a false assurance that one has been reconciled to God.

I hope that what I write WAKES PEOPLE UP. Most are asleep at the switch and I fear are impossible to rouse for they have been soothed with a false gospel that caterered to their flesh.

 

[PopClick]

I've never had a problem believing in total depravity. I see it spelled out quite clearly in the bible.

 

[Abiding]

I like his cookies and coffee more

7 chocolate chips evenly spread just like u like them.
coffee with a splash a creme. For my fav. teacher.

 

[Skinski7]

how depraved is a man who claims he knows the Lord, is saved, is clean and righteous yet is engulfed in porn and who-knows-what-else?

how depraved is that?

WHITE-WASHED TOMB Jesus calls them....outside they look real good skinski. just like you in 1995, 96, 97....and onwards.

how come i don't hear any CONFESSION of that coming from you, Mr. Purity?



every regenerated christian will turn from their sin, continue turning from sin, confess their sin and be cleansed, and walk in the good works God ordained they would walk in.

every single one.

by your continuing accusations, it is YOU who maligns God.

vomiting on his pastors and church. depraved.



are you forgiven skinski?

how did you do it?

by your own righteousness?: yes, since you openly deny the Righteousness of GOD APART from the Law, the righteousness of Christ IMPUTED to the sinner...you don't know what that means.....it's not FORGIVENESS OF SINS...that just wipes the slate clean from SIN. it does NOT make you perfectly righteous.

in your Finneyite/gnostic heretical system it is "the Righteousness of Skinski obeying the Law, the righteousness of Skinski"



no, there are guys who love their porn who choose Promise Keepers who make the "church" full of sin and hypocrisy - that would be YOU.

meanwhile there are Christians doing what they have always been doing: LIVING GOOD LIVES ACCORDING THE WORKING OF CHRIST IN THEIR LIVES.

and you don't learn at all.

if you think you're going to get away with all this heresy you're teaching and on that Day point out the fact you [claim] you quit porn you've got a great shock coming.

You put your foot in your mouth again.

1995, 1996, 1997 onwards, engulfed in porn, claiming to be saved and clean and righteous? You have me confused with someone else.

You have also asserted that I was involved with the Promise Keepers as a porn addict. I have no idea where that comes from. I have never been associated with Promise Keepers and in fact know hardly anything about them.

You also assert that I was preaching what I preach right now 10 years ago.

You make all these assertions but YOU WON'T DARE TOUCH the content of my posts will you?

All you can do is try and scoff and mock and hold the messenger up for contempt. That right there reveals your heart.

You throw Charles Finney at me and I have never quoted him once. In fact if you go to my Youtube channel you will find a video which exposes his teaching of the Perseverance of the Saints. While I agree with Finney in his refutation of Original Sin I am completely opposed to Moral Government Theology. You run off at your fingertips having no knowledge of what I really believe.

The reason you bring up Finney or even Pelagius is because in your mind anyone who teaches against your Lutheran doctrine of the Blessed Exchange and Penal Substitution is somehow in the Pelagian or Finney Camp. You have a corral in your mind already set up which you put people in and then you draw on everything associated with that corral and attribute it to those you put in there.

You probably have some other imaginary corral you have thrown me in that I don't even know about where you have this 95,96,97, porn addiction and the Promise Keepers all attached. I find it quite bizarre actually.

In fact your mind twists what I write into this...

by your own righteousness?: yes, since you openly deny the Righteousness of GOD APART from the Law, the righteousness of Christ IMPUTED to the sinner...you don't know what that means.....it's not FORGIVENESS OF SINS...that just wipes the slate clean from SIN. it does NOT make you perfectly righteous.

I openly deny the righteousness of God apart from the law? No I don't. Righteousness IS APART FROM THE LAW because true righteousness is of the HEART through abiding in Jesus Christ. God manifests His righteousness through us for we are but vessels for the Creator of the Universe. God leads and we yield. Simple.

FAITH WORKS BY LOVE (Gal 5:6)

LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW (Gal 5:14)

THEREFORE FAITH UPHOLDS THE LAW (Rom 3:31),

AND WE FULFILL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW BY WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT AS WE ABIDE IN CHRIST (ROM 8:1-4)

Yet you twist the above into that paragraph you wrote. You then claim that the "RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST IS IMPUTED TO THE SINNER" yet you don't cite a verse because such a verse does not exist.

The Scriptures blow your false theology out of the water and because of this you have to divert attention and resort to an ad hominem attack.

Find a single quote of mine where I have stated that "you have to obey the law." You won't find it because I never say that, we FULFILL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW by faith and are thus not UNDER THE LAW.

 

[mark54]

What I preach does not allow for the continuation of rebellion with a false assurance that one has been reconciled to God.

I hope that what I write WAKES PEOPLE UP. Most are asleep at the switch and I fear are impossible to rouse for they have been soothed with a false gospel that caterered to their flesh.

I will leave you to it Skinski

But you are demanding of others what you yourself cannot live up to.

And if the sincere believe you, they will simply become crushed, as the Pharisees crushed the people with the literal letter and their demands, without understanding the heart of what that letter contained.

They demanded the people obey the letter of the law, while they themselves, according to Christ did not obey the law themselves

 

[Skinski7]

I will leave you to it Skinski

But you are demanding of others what you yourself cannot live up to.

And if the sincere believe you, they will simply become crushed, as the Pharisees crushed the people with the literal letter, without understanding the heart of what that letter contained.

You obviously are an unbeliever then who speaks of a different god than the one revealed in the Bible.

My God indeed redeems us from ALL INIQUITY and PURIFIES US.

 

[Abiding]

You obviously are an unbeliever then who speaks of a different god than the one revealed in the Bible.

My God indeed redeems us from ALL INIQUITY and PURIFIES US.

Skinski

The problem is not so much with a lot of your pure doctrine according to scripture, it is the ideal, but it does not allow for the humanity of man, or for the working out practically of Grace in the Christians life.
I bet to you, as soon as a person becomes a Christian they can immediately cease all sin. I am afraid you can only see the literal letter, and not all of that:
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Yes He does and will, the mechanics of it excludes much of what you teach and say. Thats for sure!





........................

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We must not be that scummy then.

why would ya say that. Even the most pitiful scum of the earth has shown the ability to realise when he has come up to a brick wall he calls for help.

Again I ask, What good is the schoolmaster, if we are so scummy as you p[ut it, it could not lead us to Christ because we would not be looking for it. It would be useless as a schoolmaster would it not?

 

[Bookends]

Can I jump into this thread? ["sure", says the community]

Oh my !!!, where do I start?

When we become born again:

Do we share in Christ's sufferings? Romans 8:17; 2 Corinthians 1:5; 1 Peter 4:13, *Revelation 21:7*(for all things in Christ)
Do we share in Christ's Baptism? Romans 6:1-4; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12
Do we share in Christ's Righteousness? Philippians 3:9, Jeremiah 33:16
Do we share in Christ's Circumcision? Romans 2:28-29; Colossians 2:11;
Do we share in Christ's Temptations? Hebrews 4: 15-16
Do we share in Christ's Throne? Ephesians 2:6 ; Ephesians 1:3 (for all things in Christ)
Do we share in Christ's Judgment? 1 Corinthians 6:2; Matthew 19:28; Revelation 20:4
Do we share in Christ's Inheritance? Romans 8:17; Galatians 3:29; Ephesians 3:6: *Revelation 21:7*
Do we share in Christ's Death? Philippians 3:10; Romans 6:1-5
Do we share in Christ's Resurrection? Philippians 3:10-11; Romans 6:1-5; Romans 8:17; Colossians 2:12

Does God already see us sitting next to Him in the heavenly places?

Now the major question;

Do we share in Christ's Election (predestination)?

Act 2:23, this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [a]godless men and put Him to death.

Romans 8:29, For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [those whom He foreknew, He also predestined (the whole Church of God, not individuals--my added words and my take on it] to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; [brethren, also the whole Church]. It was always God's plan to have a people unto himself, to contain and display His own glory to the world and universe, therefor in this sense we are predestined; the Church, not as individuals. Otherwise would we not be mere robots programed to love and accept God, while unbelievers are doomed from the womb? Is that how our God is? Or does God want our obedience out of genuine love for him? Is God a cosmic rapist stripping us from the freedom to choose and to exercise the Image in which we where created? But however we all put it, it's a mystery of God that we may not at all understand until the day we are glorified.


In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, but in a [spiritual] circumcision [performed by] Christ by stripping off the body of the flesh (the whole corrupt, carnal nature with its passions and lusts). (Col 2:11 AMP)


Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 1:3
Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,


God bless you all and I hope I did not offend anybody! Peace.

 

[mark54]

You obviously are an unbeliever then who speaks of a different god than the one revealed in the Bible.

My God indeed redeems us from ALL INIQUITY and PURIFIES US.

When I was ten My Parents took my sister and I to a church that preached what you do. I became a Christian and believed I could no longer sin and be acceptable to God. I tried so hard to live as a Christian should live according to the literal words/commands of scripture, but couldn't do it. I became consumed by guit and fear. During my teenage years(ok I was a teenager) I became consumed by lust. The harder I tried to be pure and clean, the more I failed. I felt dirty, and condemned. I couldn't obey the law/commandments of Christ, these laws/commands that were supposed to prove I was a Christian by following them instead stood against me, and condemned me. I knew I had been saved by trusting Jesus died for me, and the slate was wiped clean at that point, but to remain a Christian I could not sin, that was not possible.
After a few years I gave up with God, believing I could not be good enough to be a Christian. The result of my trying so hard to live a pure life for God had simply ended up with me being consumed by sin/concupiscence.
Years later I was fortunate to read a book on Grace. For the first time in my life I actually believed I could be a Christian. I wasn't perfect, far from it, but I stood on a righteousness solely based on the fact Christ had died for me.
But what of the sin? The sin that had only ever got worse.
Well there was one particular sin that had left me feeling degraded and full of guilt. How was this to be dealt with? Well I didn't look at the sin, I looked to Jesus and trusted him I was saved, despite the glaring sin in my life. I hadn't put the flesh to death, I hadn't tried to, but I had changed, I knew that.
This sin that had consumed me for years did not stop, but now I had a righteousness apart from my own personal goodness, and I didn't let the sin condemn me. For a few days the sin continued, but during this time I kept looking to Jesus and clinging to him, I was saved because he died for me. It wasn't easy. A voice inside my head kept saying
'You're faking it. You can't be a Christian and do what you are doing.' But hard as it was I ignored that voice and kept looking to Jesus and trusting he died for me.
In less than a week this sin that had consumed me for years stopped. I know if I had of follwed your preaching it would never have stopped, but I didn't consider my first priority putting the flesh to death, but looknig away from the flesh and to Christ who set me free.

So you see Skinski I understand what Paul meant in Rom 7:7-11, and also Gal2:17&18, because I lived it. I know victory is by faith in Christ, not me trying to put to death my own flesh, for no man can do that.
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil3:3

Yet you continually talk as to what WE must do. We must have faith in Christ, our one and only righeousness, and it is faith in him that brings obediance, not we ourselves, trying to put to death our own flesh.
That approach leads to a person becoming crushed and giving up with God, or going to church each week and pretending to be someone they know in their heart they can never be

 

[weakness]

Please if you can shew me three scriptures that say there cannot be election and free will at the same time..... Not just indirectly by someones interpretation but directly " let your moderation be made known to all men. God bless all those in Christ

 

[zone]

You put your foot in your mouth again.

1995, 1996, 1997 onwards, engulfed in porn, claiming to be saved and clean and righteous? You have me confused with someone else.

You have also asserted that I was involved with the Promise Keepers as a porn addict. I have no idea where that comes from. I have never been associated with Promise Keepers and in fact know hardly anything about them.

as sickening as it all is i guess we'll get to it.

You also assert that I was preaching what I preach right now 10 years ago.[/B]

i have the screen captures Skinski.
even your gaming habits.

fun to be stalked, huh?

SKINSKI AND HIS SECTARIAN FALSE TEACHERS STALKING AND DIVIDING CHURCHES.
http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=674188 < click

God does not regenerate anyone who is still in rebellion.

I was double minded for so long, even when I knew it. I do not know why God had mercy on me and had allowed me to live. I had been sinning knowing it was wrong for a very long time, I had abused His grace although I was deceived by many false teachers and teachings at the time. But thank God for His great mercy and patience with me, I didn't deserve, I don't deserve it, yet here I am an example that God will save whosoever will come.

I was cut to the heart when I began to learn the truth. I realises that my sin was my responsibility. I came to understand how selfish I had been, how I had abused the gift of life God had given me, how I did not love my neighbour. I realised how I was living into total aberration to the truth, and I knew it would be the end of me.

I was broken on that rock of Christ as my mind changed and I forsook my rebellion. God then opened my eyes and I found an insatiable hunger for truth and righteousness.

You make all these assertions but YOU WON'T DARE TOUCH the content of my posts will you?

i've been dealing with the content all along...we all know the passages.
it's your FAKE holiness and lying i can't stand.

All you can do is try and scoff and mock and hold the messenger up for contempt. That right there reveals your heart.

in this case the messenger is a liar and a fraud.

You throw Charles Finney at me and I have never quoted him once. In fact if you go to my Youtube channel you will find a video which exposes his teaching of the Perseverance of the Saints. While I agree with Finney in his refutation of Original Sin I am completely opposed to Moral Government Theology. You run off at your fingertips having no knowledge of what I really believe.

i know exactly what you believe. read it all.

The reason you bring up Finney or even Pelagius is because in your mind anyone who teaches against your Lutheran doctrine of the Blessed Exchange and Penal Substitution is somehow in the Pelagian or Finney Camp. You have a corral in your mind already set up which you put people in and then you draw on everything associated with that corral and attribute it to those you put in there.

your doctrine is identical the heretic Finney.
who cares whether you hold to ransom theory or whatever else.
you're a pharisaical moralist, who claims he found mercy WHILE IN HIS SIN, yet there will be NONE for anyone else.

But thank God for His great mercy and patience with me, I didn't deserve, I don't deserve it, yet here I am an example that God will save whosoever will come.

awwww......sinner Skinski.
look! God had mercy on him in his sin...but no one else!

Find a single quote of mine where I have stated that "you have to obey the law." You won't find it because I never say that, we FULFILL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW by faith and are thus not UNDER THE LAW.

if we're not under the Law, who are YOU to be doing this?:
just look at this disgrace...

before we look at your satanic work...let's remember this:

But thank God for His great mercy and patience with me, I didn't deserve, I don't deserve it, yet here I am an example that God will save whosoever will come.

I can vouch for the validity of the email responses below because I have personally conducted my own email campaign over the past twelve months I have had exchanges with well over a 100 pastors and their bottom line answer, without exception, is the same.

The Bible is clear that willful presumptuous sun must stop before mercy is granted by God. Yet the church system is teaching that forgiveness is granted first.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.



State of Emergency in the Churches

The Habitation of Demons and every foul spirit! (Rev18:2) That is what the Modern Day church has become. United wholly with the corrupted world system and drunk with the wine of fornications and luxury. False Prophets control the Platforms and NO ONE preaching True Repentance and Faith can Buy or sell among them. Worst of all, everything APPEARS to be fine and dandy! Like the Churches in Revelation, they are completely unaware what the Spirit is saying to them about their conduct. NOTHING can touch them! They are impervious to correction and scornful of rebuke.


What we have done is use their own tactics against them to expose what&#8217;s behind this colossal mess and moral decay. By Stealth we have BROKEN through their Code and discovered what they are REALLY Preaching and teaching. In our Videos sate of emergency standingthegap - Google Search, we examine this crisis in detail and show the vivid reality of how far they have descended into the depths of Satan. We solicited their comments anonymously from a cross section of present day churches. They are all &#8216;Legitmate&#8217; remarks made by church leaders from across the United States. Unless you hold to the Lie they are preaching, this should serve as a Wake up Call to the church that its LONG PAST time for Sackcloth and ashes. May God help you see how far GONE the system has become.

First Question asked:
Does a Child Molester have to STOP molesting children to Receive Christ?

Hi Dan,
You asked: &#8220;If a person is a child molester does he have to stop molesting children in order to receive Jesus?&#8221;
My answer: Absolutely not. A person does not need to stop anything, start anything, or do anything at all to have God or Jesus in their life. It is just the opposite. Rather than stopping molesting in order to receive Jesus, it is receiving Jesus in order to stop molesting.

I would go even further: God is already in that person&#8217;s life, no matter who they are or what they have done.. The Spirit is already there. Jesus is already at work. What is needed is spiritual growth to the point where our harmful practices can be overcome and healed.
Letting Jesus into our lives begins to change us from the inside out. As we surrender ourselves to God, the Spirit gives all of us, including the molester strength and healing. This is helped by spiritual practices, therapy, Christian community, good teaching, and some healthy relationship with adults who know the problem. Our salvation is not dependent on behaving a certain way. We are saved not because of what we do but because God loves us and would not do anything else but save us.
Of course God wants us to stop hurting children or anyone, but that is not a prerequisite for being loved by God or being saved. Every child molester is loved and treasured by God. Just like a good mother or father treasures their children no matter what kind of trouble they get into. They still love them &#8211; and they want to help them get out of trouble. Same with God. Hey, Dan, keep them coming. What are you thinking?
Paul

Thanks for your email. Child molestation is a sexual sin like others and a person can be a Christian and still sin in this way. But God demands that we work to rid our lives of sin, if this is your struggle let&#8217;s talk so we can get you some help to work through this struggle and so God can deliver you. Praying for you,
Pastor




Dan,
Jesus came to save the lost. He will accept anyone, anytime (Rev. 3:20) However, once a person receives
the Holy Spirit, he is sealed and will be a slave to righteousness.(Eph.1:13; 2 Cor. 5:17) This does not
mean that he/she will be perfect, but it does mean that the new person will be enlightened and you will
(or should) have a harder time with perpetual sin. Child molestation is a very serious offense in civil
law and biblically (Matt 18:5-7). If someone is a "Christian" and still finding themselves wanting to
molest children or slipping with this sin, they should expose it to a respected church leader and to the
authorities. God will still love them, but there are consequences. Hope this helps,
Mark D'Ambrosio (asst. Pastor)

To answer your question...
I think you can ask Jesus into your heart while still engaging in behavior that does not honor the love of Christ. By becoming a Christian and following in the Way of Christ (loving God, loving neighbor, loving self -- allowing the fruits of the spirit to live within you -- love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control), you will find it increasingly difficult to behave in ways
that harm yourself and others. I hope this helps.
Preston Hollow Presbyterian Church




In regard to your question, molestation is a serious problem. It may also include addictive behavior of some kind. You question could also be asked, "Do we have to stop sinning to be loved by God?" I think not. I am always going to be sinning. However, if a person knowingly is harming others in this manner, there are serious considers where society must step in.
Grace, Tom

Dan, There is nothing that a person can do to make God stop loving them. They have always have been and always will be a beloved child of God. However, receiving Jesus and following the Way of Christ means that we behave as Christ would behave. Christ would not molest a child, therefore, followers of Christ should not molest children. From your e-mail I have no way of knowing if you or the person you are concerned about are in the Boise area. We have excellent counseling opportunities. Look for help; even if the person has tried counseling in the past, try again. Be fully assured that God will never desert or turn God's back on any person struggling with an addiction. But living with an addiction is not what God had planned for this person's life. Our prayer team will hold you/your friend in prayer this week.
Grace, Pastor Sandi






The whole thing isn't about sin as much as it is about redemption, but it also isn't a license to continue in the life style that we lived before Christ (Romans 6). By that I mean to continue with no repentance and no attempt to turn from the things from which we have been redeemed.
So the answer is yes, a child molester can be forgiven without doing anything, but that same one, who enters into God's redemption will in turn live under the new paradigm of God's kingdom.
Does that mean that he will not struggle with those things of which we talk? No, he will. But in Christ we are new creations and in humility we seek to walk in righteousness.
Has this made sense to you?
Peace, Kelley




Dear Whoever you are, No, but if a person really does accept Jesus and starts following Jesus, he/she will not continue indefinitely to molest children, rob banks, take crack cocaine, look at pornography, drink alcohol to excess, commit adultery, lie, etc. I John 4.9 says that whosoever is born of God does not CONTINUE in sin. However, that said, we must also remember that we are to repent of sin as we receive the gift of salvation through Christ (Mk. 1.15) I think a sinner, just as I am and you are, must start to make a break with our sinful past and trust God to help us stop all those egregious things we did before we started to be Jesus' faithful followers. Some sins are a lot harder to break than others, just like some addictions are never fully healed, but with God's help we can get the day-to-day victory! Paul said that "God's strength is perfected in weakness so that when I am weak, then I am strong." I hope this helps. Pastor Dan,

No, you don't have to stop molesting children to receive Christ. You need the one who can heal and transform your life to deal with those types of issues. Once someone has received Christ they are responsible to respond in obedience to Christ even when there urges are to do things that are wrong. The urges are not the sin, the thinking and response to the urge is where the critical battle is fought.
In Christ, David Rice



Dan,
No, a person does not have to stop any sin in order to receive Jesus. If we had to be perfect, He would receive no one. The Bible says, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Call on Him, and you will be saved.

http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=674188 < click

 

[rauleetoe]

Free will only means libertarian free will..that which was given by God. The Classical Arminian believes in Sovereignty, but he or she appeals to God's good and loving character..and if we could not fall away..then we are mere puppets in God's hands, as Arminius said.

That said..the Arminian who is truly classically arminian believes in total depravity..and we believe in a security..but call it believer's security..we just believe God is Holy and the right and just response to God's standard is to be Holy, to walk with him(by his spirit) and to not resist and repent!

This is the difference...

 

[rauleetoe]

how long have you been pure skinski?

what was the day, hour and minute on the clock?

surely you'll remember being glorified?

do your friends have to cover your face with a cloth?

I have but one question for you Zone...i ask it in love..
Has God left us as orphans? Did Jesus not say let your heart not be troubled? Did he not promise us his Holy Spirit? And if he gave us his Holy Spirit..why do you stand amazed and upset when we who believe the Bible when it says, Be Ye Holy..that its a command and we walk with God..why do you get upset with those who choose(by God's enabling help through his Spirit) to live for him..why do you shake your fist in anger? You should be praising God! After all..this is for all christians..not just us 'non calvinists' aka the free willers..
Be Ye Holy was not an option..its a command for all who claim to be christians..

 

[zone]

You make all these assertions but YOU WON'T DARE TOUCH the content of my posts will you?

you are a SCATTERER of the sheep.
i assure you, you will answer for what you are doing.

any idea why you and that nutjob DeSario have to go into the gnostics, finneyites and judaism for your answers?

because you're in the same condition they were.

 

[zone]

I have but one question for you Zone...i ask it in love..
Has God left us as orphans? Did Jesus not say let your heart not be troubled? Did he not promise us his Holy Spirit? And if he gave us his Holy Spirit..why do you stand amazed and upset when we who believe the Bible when it says, Be Ye Holy..that its a command and we walk with God..why do you get upset with those who choose(by God's enabling help through his Spirit) to live for him..why do you shake your fist in anger? You should be praising God! After all..this is for all christians..not just us 'non calvinists' aka the free willers..
Be Ye Holy was not an option..its a command for all who claim to be christians..

hi rauleetoe.
could you please show anywhere anyone on this site (with the few obvious exceptions of athesists and trolls) who are not choosing to live for Christ?

please post the list here:






















thanks
zone.

 

[zone]

in any case....i guess i'll see if Chris can fast-track this standingthegap cult.
enough is enough.

 

[rauleetoe]

hi rauleetoe.
could you please show anywhere anyone on this site (with the few obvious exceptions of athesists and trolls) who are not choosing to live for Christ?

please post the list here:






















thanks
zone.

Well going by what you have said against Wesley, and seeming to not believe that we can live for God..as many who appeal only to grace and believe Holiness is something that is attained on our own(not that i ever heard someone imply this..not me..not anyone said its a do it yourself christianity) I can only say what it seems that you are implying..I am not 'keeping score' as much as you seem to be.
I can only say..do not get upset when we who believe what 1 thessalonians 4 says and 1 peter1 says and other scriptures say regarding right living that it's God's will for all Christians. And we are all to have fruit..remember what Jesus did to the fruitless fig tree? He cursed it..
This is not my trying to compile a list Zone..rather an admonishment to love that which is good..he is Holy..