Total Depravity

[Scotth1960]

We did not write the scriptures, but we have to let them speak to us through the Holy Spirit to bring truth into our being so that we can have God's understanding and not our own to lean upon. So, when the scriptures tells us that 'there is none that doeth good, no not one', how are we to understand what that is telling us? Is there some that do good but not all or is there none that doeth good, NO NOT ONE!

Ps 53:2,3 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand , that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back : they are altogether become filthy ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one..

Dear Red33: It is true there is no one righteous except God. St. Paul is not saying there is no one righteous. He is saying only God is righteous; he is saying there is no one who is righteous among all human beings. But God is not a man. God is righteous. I do not mean to criticize the Psalm or St. Paul who quoted this. I am not saying the Bible is wrong. I am merely saying if you take this literally, it could lead to a wrong doctrine. Yes, there is One Who is righteous: God. But no, there is no one who is righteous among men: all men women and children are in a state of corruption and sin. Original sin is not true, but the ancestral sin is true. All human beings have inherited the knowledge of good and evil, which is the ancestral sin; they have not inherited the guilt (sin) of Adam's sin. All people are guilty only of their own personal sins (Ezekiel 18). People are born mortal and corruptible. That is the ancestral sin, which led to mortality (a state in which death is inevitable) for all human beings. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington


Rom 3:10-12 As it is written , There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth , there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way , they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one .[

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

LOL!
1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

i like it.

Yep, I thought you'd like that. Great list, 'cuz 1. is ultimately all that matters when in appropriate context. I'm more reformed than it often appears. I just despise the extremes. I hammer against "free" will even harder than "total" depravity. Like I've said... Calvi/Armi is a near-miss false dichotomy.

2. Man is not Totally Depraved.

can we go like this?:

2. unregenerate Man is Depraved.

depraved [dɪˈpreɪvd]
adj morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted depravedness [dɪˈpreɪvɪdnɪs] n

Adj.1.depraved - deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good; "depraved criminals"; "a perverted sense of loyalty"; "the reprobate conduct of a gambling aristocrat" reprobate, perverse, perverted
corrupt - lacking in integrity; "humanity they knew to be corrupt...from the day of Adam's creation"; "a corrupt and incompetent city government"

I'm praying about the shorthand terminologies. Very useful as descriptors, they are.

Man's soul is depraved, and is conjoined to the body (sin in our members). Man's spirit is redeemable good; and though co-noncorporeally conjoined to the soul, external communion with God's Spirit has been abrogated. The communion must be reestablished internally by God partitioning His Spirit (out from His Soul by the piercing of the Logos) for separation and distribution within us; and partitioning our soul-spirit for separation and redistribution to receive that indwelling.

i think TULIP is silly and unfortunate.
we still have to have shorthand.

I agree, as long as the shorthand remains descriptive without becoming definitive.

there has to be some reason The Lord is redeeming some men for Himself.
but that's His own decision. and He is making them new.
who is going to argue?

And... there's the "waster" to consider...

i affirm monergism.

And God COULD have Monergistically foreordained some measure of Synergism.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

by the time the 2nd Advent is at the door maybe we'll be okay with the term Total Depravity as we look around.
'parently its gonna get worse, not better.

Well... not from my perspective, but for Armi-lites and the rampant hoardes of Semi-Pelagians and Semi-Semi-Pelagians... Absolutely!

(things look very different for me today after your posts pps...no going back now)

I'd greatly enjoy a conversation about that. Did you "get" the follow-on God-constitution part?

I'm loving your "breathing free". I experienced this salvifically and then as deeper revelation. I don't know how it would be to have salvific faith and then have this understanding of truth. Very kewl.

All the love of the Lord Jesus Christ to you, Sis.

(In Acts 2, God hath made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Interesting...)

 

[Scotth1960]

Me too. Every part of tulip is false including the T

Dear 4runner.
AMEN. Every part of TULIP is false. I have a suggestion for you if you want to know why. Read the following book. The title is either Tulip Reconsidered or Reconsidering Tulip. It's by lulu.com books by Alexander Renault. I'm not able to purchase the book, but maybe if you want to know more on Calvinism from a sound position, from what I've read about this book, it will be truthful. I've read other books criticizing Calvinism and I find all or most of what they say to be truthful. Anyway, Calvinism is heresy. I also recommend the book "What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God. by Dave Hunt. And The Other Side of Calvinism. By Lawrence M. Vance Vance Publications, Florida. God bless you. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Scotth1960]

COMMON SENSE APPROACH

We know that man is totally depraved because of the human heart that is deceitful and desperately wicked. We can see that in ourselves and in others, therefore we can assign total depravity to the human race. We see that children are born and soon after are speaking lies and are easily led astray. That is the simple approached and the only ones that would balk at that are those that believe in human good over and against divine good. There is none that are born with divine good and those that would boast of human good, their best condition is considered vanity and filthy rags before a holy God but not before those that live in human good and believe that man is intrinsically good and somehow can be corrupted after the fact by their surroundings and the influence of human evil.

Depravity means no soundness and no ability to do a single thing mentally, emotionally, volitionally, righteously or morally, no matter what the appearance, that would be acceptable to God in any way, shape, form or conformity, inwardly or outwardly, and that also goes for the inverse or those things that are omitted and never committed. In other words, if a man were able to abstain from every form of lust and fleshly desire mentally, emotionally and from the appetites of his body and was able to accomplish this perfectly in his own strength, it would be disapproved by God and completely unacceptable because of the source of that strength and ability that accomplished such a discipline. It would be commendable but not acceptable as a means to justify the constitutional makeup and substance of a man's being before the holiness, righteousness, purity and the uncreated life of his Creator.

Such a totally depraved and sinful nature have we all inherited from conception through our progenitor Adam, with no if, ands or buts about it. It can not be denied, refuted, intellectualized, rationalized away or forgotten through ignorance because it abides in every living man and woman that has breath and is confirmed by those that have met up with the grave through death.

"Calvinism, False Doctrine of the "Pope" of Geneva, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance [of the Saints]
www.biblelife.org/Calvinism.htm

"The White Man: Is Calvinism a Cult? Tuesday Nov. 2008
whitemail.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-calvinism-cult.html


God bless us in Christ Jesus. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Red33]

Total depravity teaches that God must regenerate a person before they can accept Christ. While scripture says we must accept Christ before we can be regenerated. I will believe the word. you can believe John Calvin...Sound fair???

John Calvin has nothing to do with total depravity, it is right their in the scriptures and how anyone can miss it, I'll never know. What wacky notion is this that you have presented. Who do you learn the scriptures from? Some of you are so loony and irresponsible with how you handle the word of God. This is why we as believers need a pastor-teacher given by God, because most of the time we go off half cocked thinking we know something when we don't (1Cor 8:2). This conclusion you have come to is idiotic.

Total depravity teaches nothing of the sort and you would do well to listen and have an ear to hear, because you have not been listening to what the word teaches. Every man is in darkness and was conceived in sin, born speaking lies and filthy (Ps 53:3, 58:3). The light shined in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not (Jn 1:5). That is a picture of total depravity whether you want to submit to that or not. There is nothing in man that can comprehend the light that comes from God. Man must be drawn to the light of the glorious gospel to respond and believe. Yes man has free volition to make that choice in responding and believing, but on his own he is without that ability, it must come from the power of God's goodness and salvation grace, stirring him up, to even bring the volition of man to that place of repentance (Rom 2:4).

Mt 19:25,26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed , saying , Who then can be saved ? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Do you believe this even from the lips of Jesus, the Saviour who is the author and finisher of our faith?

 

[Abiding]

Wow
Red I dont know how anyone could listen to you.
Im offended reading your posts and they arnt even
written to me.

 

[zone]

Dear 4runner.
AMEN. Every part of TULIP is false. I have a suggestion for you if you want to know why. Read the following book. The title is either Tulip Reconsidered or Reconsidering Tulip. It's by lulu.com books by Alexander Renault. I'm not able to purchase the book, but maybe if you want to know more on Calvinism from a sound position, from what I've read about this book, it will be truthful. I've read other books criticizing Calvinism and I find all or most of what they say to be truthful. Anyway, Calvinism is heresy. I also recommend the book "What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God. by Dave Hunt. And The Other Side of Calvinism. By Lawrence M. Vance Vance Publications, Florida. God bless you. In Erie Scott H.

you're promoting that crackpot Dave Hunt?
huh?
well, any weapon you can find i guess, even if the guy is against what you preach 99% of the time.

 

[InHISRiver]

I believe in original sin....;we all fall short of the glory of God....

perfect people do not need God......Adam brought sin to a sinless world.....that sin stained us....we need redemption from and in Him....Amen Red....Preach it brother...

 

[AnandaHya]

all people need God "perfect" or not. God says people will be perfect in Heaven does that mean you will no longer need God?

 

[NitzWalsh]

John Calvin has nothing to do with total depravity, it is right their in the scriptures and how anyone can miss it, I'll never know. What wacky notion is this that you have presented. Who do you learn the scriptures from? Some of you are so loony and irresponsible with how you handle the word of God. This is why we as believers need a pastor-teacher given by God, because most of the time we go off half cocked thinking we know something when we don't (1Cor 8:2). This conclusion you have come to is idiotic.

Total depravity teaches nothing of the sort and you would do well to listen and have an ear to hear, because you have not been listening to what the word teaches. Every man is in darkness and was conceived in sin, born speaking lies and filthy (Ps 53:3, 58:3). The light shined in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not (Jn 1:5). That is a picture of total depravity whether you want to submit to that or not. There is nothing in man that can comprehend the light that comes from God. Man must be drawn to the light of the glorious gospel to respond and believe. Yes man has free volition to make that choice in responding and believing, but on his own he is without that ability, it must come from the power of God's goodness and salvation grace, stirring him up, to even bring the volition of man to that place of repentance (Rom 2:4).

Mt 19:25,26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed , saying , Who then can be saved ? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Do you believe this even from the lips of Jesus, the Saviour who is the author and finisher of our faith?

I've been talking to various pastors and theologians and other folk out there, both calvinist and non-calvinist, and reading the scriptures, and still don't believe in Total Depravity or that it's taught in the Bible.

I'm not saying man can bring about his own salvation.

But it's been said in this thread that Depravity is being morally bad, debased or corrupt and so on... I've met atheists, pagans, Muslims and Sikhs with better morals then a lot of Christians I've known, including ones that believe in Total Depravity... now since that is so, how can Total Depravity exist? How come there are so many decent human beings out there if they are totally depraved? How is it that man being totally depraved chose to develop moral laws for himself?

 

[zone]

I've been talking to various pastors and theologians and other folk out there, both calvinist and non-calvinist, and reading the scriptures, and still don't believe in Total Depravity or that it's taught in the Bible.

I'm not saying man can bring about his own salvation.

But it's been said in this thread that Depravity is being morally bad, debased or corrupt and so on... I've met atheists, pagans, Muslims and Sikhs with better morals then a lot of Christians I've known, including ones that believe in Total Depravity... now since that is so, how can Total Depravity exist? How come there are so many decent human beings out there if they are totally depraved? How is it that man being totally depraved chose to develop moral laws for himself?

red letters.
what did Jesus say?

Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

4190. ponéros
ponéros: toilsome, bad​

Original Word: πονηρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ponéros
Phonetic Spelling: (pon-ay-ros')
Short Definition: evil, bad, wicked
Definition: evil, bad, wicked, malicious, slothful.

4190 ponērós (an adjective which is also used substantively, derived from 4192 /pónos, "pain, laborious trouble") – properly, pain-ridden, emphasizing the inevitable agonies (misery) that always go with evil.

NASB Word Usage
bad (5), crimes (1), envious (1), envy* (1), evil (50), evil one (5), evil things (1), malignant (1), more evil (1), more wicked (1), vicious (1), wicked (6), wicked man (1), wicked things (1), worthless (1).

 

[Abiding]

Read Romans, believe it and youll be fine.
Judging carnal man with a carnal mind wont
cut it.

 

[zone]

Read Romans, believe it and youll be fine.
Judging carnal man with a carnal mind wont
cut it.

a-a-a-amen to that!
we'd all be fine if we understood Romans

 

[Red33]

Wow
Red I dont know how anyone could listen to you.
Im offended reading your posts and they arnt even
written to me.

Why are you so offended, don't you also believe that we were totally depraved as sinners, having our understanding darkened, being alienated from God through the ignorance that was in us, because of the blindness of our heart? Satan has blinded the minds and hearts of those that do not believe. This is why the light of the glorious gospel must shine unto them, who live in the darkness and depravity of their old sin nature with a deceitful and desperately wicked heart (2Cor 4:4, Jer 17:9, Is 1:5). If man is not totally depraved in his nature their would be no need for God to make us new creatures in Christ (2Cor 5:17). The old things that pass away are both the good and the evil and all things become new. We are born again through the incorruptible seed of the word (1Pt 1:23) and regenerated as the one new man through the Spirit (Titus 3:5,6, Eph 2:15).

 

[Abiding]

Why are you so offended, don't you also believe that we were totally depraved as sinners, having our understanding darkened, being alienated from God through the ignorance that was in us, because of the blindness of our heart? Satan has blinded the minds and hearts of those that do not believe. This is why the light of the glorious gospel must shine unto them, who live in the darkness and depravity of their old sin nature with a deceitful and desperately wicked heart (2Cor 4:4, Jer 17:9, Is 1:5). If man is not totally depraved in his nature their would be no need for God to make us new creatures in Christ (2Cor 5:17). The old things that pass away are both the good and the evil and all things become new. We are born again through the incorruptible seed of the word (1Pt 1:23) and regenerated as the one new man through the Spirit (Titus 3:5,6, Eph 2:15).

Well yes i do believe that...if you come up with a more descriptive word than depraved as to how dead we are id go along with it. Maybe like depraved and deluded. Uninterested in God. Hating Him actually.

The offence comes from name calling and treating people harshly especially from you after all the
carrying on you have done when someone doesnt agree with you...telling us all about grace.

But i agree...we are given the power(grace)/ or illumined or as in the sermon on the mount..blessed
when we hear the gospel. Which is not, regenerated, that happens after we are bornagain.

 

[Scotth1960]

you're promoting that crackpot Dave Hunt?
huh?
well, any weapon you can find i guess, even if the guy is against what you preach 99% of the time.

I am not promoting Dave Hunt. I'm just suggesting that one doesn't have to be Orthodox to know that Calvinism is heresy. And saying "crackpot" is an ad hominem approach. Hunt is a heretic. So is Calvin, John Calvin. But even heretics get some things right. John Calvin understood that God is Sovereign. He got that right. But John Calvin confused the Sovereignty of God with the Causality of God. God does not have to cause everything that happens to be Sovereign over everything that happens. Calvin never understood that.
It is not ad hominem to say someone's approach is a heresy when it is indeed heresy. And to say they are heretics. The pre tribulation rapture is heresy. Dave Hunt believes greatly in the pre tribulation rapture. Therefore Dave Hunt is a heretic. Double predestination is heresy. John Calvin believed greatly in double predestination. Therefore John Calvin was a heretic.
At least Dave Hunt doesn't believe in Calvinism. Which is one thing that is not heretical in his thinking.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

a-a-a-amen to that!
we'd all be fine if we understood Romans

Not really. We need to understand the whole NT. Romans is just one part of it. The sad thing is, as Protestants, you don't understand Romans. You still say "faith alone" with Martin Luther in Romans 3:28. Thus you trust Martin Luther more than you trust St. Paul!
But understanding is only one part of "being fine". It's not all intellectual. We need an experience of God through the sacraments of the Church.
We need a heart of prayer.

 

[zone]

Why are you so offended, don't you also believe that we were totally depraved as sinners, having our understanding darkened, being alienated from God through the ignorance that was in us, because of the blindness of our heart? Satan has blinded the minds and hearts of those that do not believe. This is why the light of the glorious gospel must shine unto them, who live in the darkness and depravity of their old sin nature with a deceitful and desperately wicked heart (2Cor 4:4, Jer 17:9, Is 1:5). If man is not totally depraved in his nature their would be no need for God to make us new creatures in Christ (2Cor 5:17). The old things that pass away are both the good and the evil and all things become new. We are born again through the incorruptible seed of the word (1Pt 1:23) and regenerated as the one new man through the Spirit (Titus 3:5,6, Eph 2:15).

now we're talkin'

 

[Scotth1960]

I believe in original sin....;we all fall short of the glory of God....

perfect people do not need God......Adam brought sin to a sinless world.....that sin stained us....we need redemption from and in Him....Amen Red....Preach it brother...

Do you believe you are responsibility and guilty for what some other man, Adam, did? Or do you believe what Ezekiel chapter 18 says about personal responsibility for personal sins?
Perhaps you really don't understand Augustine of Hippo's false doctrine of original sin (original guilt).

 

[zone]

I am not promoting Dave Hunt. I'm just suggesting that one doesn't have to be Orthodox to know that Calvinism is heresy. And saying "crackpot" is an ad hominem approach. Hunt is a heretic. So is Calvin, John Calvin. But even heretics get some things right. John Calvin understood that God is Sovereign. He got that right. But John Calvin confused the Sovereignty of God with the Causality of God. God does not have to cause everything that happens to be Sovereign over everything that happens. Calvin never understood that.
It is not ad hominem to say someone's approach is a heresy when it is indeed heresy. And to say they are heretics. The pre tribulation rapture is heresy. Dave Hunt believes greatly in the pre tribulation rapture. Therefore Dave Hunt is a heretic. Double predestination is heresy. John Calvin believed greatly in double predestination. Therefore John Calvin was a heretic.
At least Dave Hunt doesn't believe in Calvinism. Which is one thing that is not heretical in his thinking.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

come on now scotty.
you and i both know better than that. we know who hunt is working for.

and here's your technique again.....back and forth from Luther to Calvin.

please understand the reformed 'traditions' a little better or get a smaller brush for your tar.

thank you.

whose TRADITIONS was paul referring to in Thess, scott?

the apostles or eo patriarchs?

what did he mean by traditions?

you claim EO is infallible - we already debunked that with the shroud of turin.

one slipup in infallibility = fallibilty = just like everybody else, and SOLA SCRIPTURA the only remedy.
why did you bail on us scott?