Total Depravity

[Abiding]

Not really. We need to understand the whole NT. Romans is just one part of it. The sad thing is, as Protestants, you don't understand Romans. You still say "faith alone" with Martin Luther in Romans 3:28. Thus you trust Martin Luther more than you trust St. Paul!
But understanding is only one part of "being fine". It's not all intellectual. We need an experience of God through the sacraments of the Church.
We need a heart of prayer.

Romans was around before and after Luther...besides we are talking about depravity...right?
Romans is clear. Also the book of Romans quotes from Old testament so it isnt guesswork
or obscure.

 

[4runner]

Romans was around before and after Luther...besides we are talking about depravity...right?
Romans is clear. Also the book of Romans quotes from Old testament so it isnt guesswork
or obscure.

Romans says one cannot be saved until they are first regenerated???????????? I think not.

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

First you believe, then confess, then are regenerated.

 

[Abiding]

Romans says one cannot be saved until they are first regenerated???????????? I think not.

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

First you believe, then confess, then are regenerated.

Im not understanding what your post is saying. or id comment

 

[Abiding]

Regeneration is not the same as drawing power(grace).
That would be like saving you to get saved, to get saved.

Or saving the person who rejects the gospel then unregenerating(unsaving him)

 

[4runner]

Im not understanding what your post is saying. or id comment

Total depravity teaches that one must first be regenerated to be able to believe or confess Christ. Scripture says one must believe , and confess Christ in order to be regenerated.

Total depravity directly opposes the truth of scripture.

 

[4runner]

Regeneration is not the same as drawing power(grace).
That would be like saving you to get saved, to get saved.

Or saving the person who rejects the gospel then unregenerating(unsaving him)

I agree, that is why I do not believe in the false doctrine of total depravity, that teaches you must be saved to get saved.

 

[Abiding]

Titus 3:3-6
King James Version (KJV)
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[4runner]

Titus 3:3-6
King James Version (KJV)
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Yep, so do agree that we must be saved first before we can get saved or do you disagree...that verse doesnt tell me one way or another????

 

[Abiding]

Total depravity teaches that one must first be regenerated to be able to believe or confess Christ. Scripture says one must believe , and confess Christ in order to be regenerated.

Total depravity directly opposes the truth of scripture.

Well im not sure who is saying that. But fact is we wont be regenerated before we are saved.
And before we are saved we are dead...no good in us...depraved.

 

[zone]

Not really. We need to understand the whole NT. Romans is just one part of it. The sad thing is, as Protestants, you don't understand Romans. You still say "faith alone" with Martin Luther in Romans 3:28. Thus you trust Martin Luther more than you trust St. Paul!
But understanding is only one part of "being fine". It's not all intellectual. We need an experience of God through the sacraments of the Church.
We need a heart of prayer.

ridiculous.
the works guys built their house of cards on a deliberate corruption of james.
you knew this.

why would anyone, who claims to trust paul choose the galatian heresy?

are you familiar with Ephesians, scott?

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

what does this say? I'LL MAKE IT REALLY BIG SO WE CAN ALL SEE IT - AGAIN.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

HOW DOES PAUL SAY WE ARE SAVED SCOTT? is it works?

yes or no?

You still say "faith alone" with Martin Luther in Romans 3:28. Thus you trust Martin Luther more than you trust St. Paul!

 

[4runner]

Well im not sure who is saying that. But fact is we wont be regenerated before we are saved.
And before we are saved we are dead...no good in us...depraved.

The total depravity guys are saying it. And yes before we are saved we are dead in our sins/depravity.

 

[zone]

Total depravity teaches that one must first be regenerated to be able to believe or confess Christ. Scripture says one must believe , and confess Christ in order to be regenerated.

Total depravity directly opposes the truth of scripture.

Ephesians 2
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

is salvation our own doing?
yes or no.

 

[4runner]

Ephesians 2
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

is salvation our own doing?
yes or no.

No it is not of our own doing, but that doesnt confirm the false teaching of total depravity.

 

[Abiding]

Yep, so do agree that we must be saved first before we can get saved or do you disagree...that verse doesnt tell me one way or another????

there are many verses i could get...to show that the Holyspirit illumines man from time to time throughout
his life. Because of the fact in his born state he hasnt the interest or the power to choose God. That what
depraved means. Hebrews 6:3- is a good spot for refererance.

When the person meets Gods requirements he is then regenerated. Anything before that has always been
referred to as general grace...the other called saving grace.

 

[zone]

Romans says one cannot be saved until they are first regenerated???????????? I think not.

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

First you believe, then confess, then are regenerated.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

is salvation our own doing? is it a gift?

where does the responsive heart come from?
did you circumcise your own heart?

of course you did

Ezekiel 36:26
New International Version (©1984)
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

New Living Translation (©2007)
And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh....

Ezekiel 36 ESV << click to see Who is DOING IT ALL.

...Then they will know that I am the Lord.&#8221;

 

[Abiding]

To be honest 4runner im not a theology grad...it could be there is a doctrine you are thinking that im not.
Romans has plenty of info like...noone seeks after God and many more...

 

[zone]

Do you believe you are responsibility and guilty for what some other man, Adam, did? Or do you believe what Ezekiel chapter 18 says about personal responsibility for personal sins?
Perhaps you really don't understand Augustine of Hippo's false doctrine of original sin (original guilt).

will there be a single soul who escapes God's wrath without justification by Grace through Faith in the Finished Work of Christ, scott?

whether they accept responsibility for their own sins or not?

is there ONE RIGHTEOUS MAN? just one? is there ONE who hasn't fallen short of the Glory of God scott?
why not? what happened in Adam?

(that's in Romans scott)

 

[zone]

I agree, that is why I do not believe in the false doctrine of total depravity, that teaches you must be saved to get saved.

how ironic.

 

[Scotth1960]

ridiculous.
the works guys built their house of cards on a deliberate corruption of james.
you knew this.

why would anyone, who claims to trust paul choose the galatian heresy?

are you familiar with Ephesians, scott?

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

what does this say? I'LL MAKE IT REALLY BIG SO WE CAN ALL SEE IT - AGAIN.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

HOW DOES PAUL SAY WE ARE SAVED SCOTT? is it works?

yes or no?

Dear Zone,
What "works" is St. Paul referring to? All works? Any works? Or "works of the law" (circumcision, dietary laws, ceremonial laws, animal sacrifices?)
St. Paul is saying that salvation is not a result of works of the law. He then goes on to say that people who believe unto Christ for salvation will have good works (Eph. 2:10). "Some have erroneously interpreted [St.] Paul, particularly in Romans 4, to be condemning all works. A careful reading of Romans, however, reveals [St.] Paul is not putting down works in general, but dead works. ("Works" in Paul's Writing", Orthodox Study Bible, page 1601.).
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


You still say "faith alone" with Martin Luther in Romans 3:28. Thus you trust Martin Luther more than you trust St. Paul!

 

[zone]

ridiculous.
the works guys built their house of cards on a deliberate corruption of james.
you knew this.

why would anyone, who claims to trust paul choose the galatian heresy?

are you familiar with Ephesians, scott?

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

what does this say? I'LL MAKE IT REALLY BIG SO WE CAN ALL SEE IT - AGAIN.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

HOW DOES PAUL SAY WE ARE SAVED SCOTT? is it works?

yes or no?

Dear Zone,
What "works" is St. Paul referring to? All works? Any works? Or "works of the law" (circumcision, dietary laws, ceremonial laws, animal sacrifices?)
St. Paul is saying that salvation is not a result of works of the law. He then goes on to say that people who believe unto Christ for salvation will have good works (Eph. 2:10). "Some have erroneously interpreted [St.] Paul, particularly in Romans 4, to be condemning all works. A careful reading of Romans, however, reveals [St.] Paul is not putting down works in general, but dead works. ("Works" in Paul's Writing", Orthodox Study Bible, page 1601.).
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


You still say "faith alone" with Martin Luther in Romans 3:28. Thus you trust Martin Luther more than you trust St. Paul!

one more time scott.
are you saved BY ANYTHING YOU DO?
yes or no:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.