Translation issue(s)?

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Runningman

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#81
Mar 4, 2020
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presidente said:
Also, one of the Old Testament words translated 'soul' elsewhere refers to animal carcasses. I read where a Greek scholar in a discussion online, from a Classics background, argued that the dead souls in revelation referred to dead bodies seen in the vision. Maybe that was based on how the word was rendered in the LXX, a Greek translation of the Old Testament.
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Just thought of something. Animals were sacrificed in the Old Testament and their carcass referred to as a soul.

In the New Testament, Jesus was sacrificed and He said this:

John 15:13
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The word life here is the Greek word for soul. Think there’s a connection here?
 
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presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Runningman said:
I more or less agree with that, especially the point about the assumption the soul is eternal or immortal. I think that presupposition would certainly influence the opinion that the soul is eternal or immortal, thus causing the translators to create proof rather than allowing the Bible to speak for itself with the definitions provided by the words used; case in point, there are no clear verses that say the soul is unconditionally immortal.

I’m of the belief that a soul is a disembodied person not a set of feelings, thoughts, or emotions:

Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These souls of slain people were crying out with a loud voice, being given clothes to wear, and resting. That sounds like a living soul of a person who alive yet disembodied.
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The scholar I mentioned's theory was that this was a vision of dead bodies crying out.
 
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Gideon300

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#83
Mar 18, 2021
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#83
Runningman said:
Decisive question: is your life a soul? Is your soul a life?

You made your life by all of the choices you made, the jobs you worked, the people you interacted with. The nuance is entirely different.

So when the Bible says “greater love has no one than this to lay down one’s life for his friends” it isn’t talking about the career and relationships one made. It’s talking about their soul, not their feelings or thoughts, their innermost being.
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I don't understand your problem. I've said all that I have to say.
 
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Runningman

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Gideon300 said:
I don't understand your problem. I've said all that I have to say.
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Not sure why you’re assigning a problem to me. I don’t have a problem, we’re just having a casual Bible discussion I thought. I sense you aren’t ready for this because it’s definitely a big pill to swallow. I’m still wrestling to understand it, too, but as I pray I believe all will be revealed.
 
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Gideon300

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Runningman said:
Not sure why you’re assigning a problem to me. I don’t have a problem, we’re just having a casual Bible discussion I thought. I sense you aren’t ready for this because it’s definitely a big pill to swallow. I’m still wrestling to understand it, too, but as I pray I believe all will be revealed.
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Casual? I do not take discussion about the Bible casually, especially when vital spiritual principles are involved. I've been studying these things for 50 years or so. You are the one who wants to upend centuries of scholarship.

I'll rephrase my "problem" statement. I don't understand why you reject scholarship and expertise that contradicts your assertion.
 
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Runningman

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phil36 said:
🙄
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your body language seems to say something. Eye-rolling is typically viewed to mean someone is removed from one spot, lifted, then thrown into the trash. I hope that isn't what you meant.
 
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Runningman

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ResidentAlien said:
1 Timothy 6:3-5
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Sounds like the church. I require nothing of anyone.

1 Tim 6:5
5and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
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Runningman

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#89
Mar 4, 2020
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#89
Gideon300 said:
Casual? I do not take discussion about the Bible casually, especially when vital spiritual principles are involved. I've been studying these things for 50 years or so. You are the one who wants to upend centuries of scholarship.

I'll rephrase my "problem" statement. I don't understand why you reject scholarship and expertise that contradicts your assertion.
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Maybe you and the church have been wrong. Is that possible or do you know everything? I'm open to the contrary if there's proof.
 
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Runningman

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#90
Gideon300 said:
Casual? I do not take discussion about the Bible casually, especially when vital spiritual principles are involved. I've been studying these things for 50 years or so.
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I agree with the quoted point. Can you separate scripture from your emotions?
 
K

kleronomos

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Dec 15, 2021
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Runningman said:
I originally posted this as a comment, but it didn’t get any attention and it’s buried in a thread now. However, I’m very curious about this because I know there are people way more experienced with Greek than myself so I would love some feedback on this. Thank you!

In the New Testament the word for soul is sometimes translated to say life instead. Sometimes it’s even translated as heart or mind. (See Ephesians 6:6 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose heart and Philippians 1:27 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose mind.)

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It’s used 104 times in the New Testament this way, often translated to say life rather than soul. The word for life (physical or spiritual) is something else and it’s G2222 (BibleHub link) in the Strong’s concordance.

Here are some random examples:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Romans 11:3 KJV
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1 Peter 3:20 KJV
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Any idea why they replaced the word for soul with life, or mind, or heart in the New Testament when there are already different words for life, heart, and mind in Greek that don’t actually refer to the soul? This isn’t just in the KJV, but most translations I’ve seen.

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Thank you for your time I look forward to some responses.
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Coming in late, but wanted to add if in case it hadn't already been tossed into the discussion,

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

To separate a body from a spirit/soul is no big deal, but to separate the spirit from the soul is like separating the marrow from a bone. Darn near impossible


Now, back to the beginning
 
T

TheLearner

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#92
Runningman said:
I originally posted this as a comment, but it didn’t get any attention and it’s buried in a thread now. However, I’m very curious about this because I know there are people way more experienced with Greek than myself so I would love some feedback on this. Thank you!

In the New Testament the word for soul is sometimes translated to say life instead. Sometimes it’s even translated as heart or mind. (See Ephesians 6:6 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose heart and Philippians 1:27 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose mind.)

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It’s used 104 times in the New Testament this way, often translated to say life rather than soul. The word for life (physical or spiritual) is something else and it’s G2222 (BibleHub link) in the Strong’s concordance.

Here are some random examples:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Romans 11:3 KJV
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1 Peter 3:20 KJV
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Any idea why they replaced the word for soul with life, or mind, or heart in the New Testament when there are already different words for life, heart, and mind in Greek that don’t actually refer to the soul? This isn’t just in the KJV, but most translations I’ve seen.

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Thank you for your time I look forward to some responses.
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Google robertson word pictures in the new testament pdf He is a well known Greek Scholar, His work explains grammar.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#94
Apr 21, 2021
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#94
Runningman said:
Sounds like the church. I require nothing of anyone.

1 Tim 6:5
5and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
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"he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth," 1 Timothy 6:4-5
 
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Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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#95
ResidentAlien said:
"he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth," 1 Timothy 6:4-5
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This is my intention:

Acts 17:10,11
10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 
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