Trinity vs. Oneness

[Israel]

Romans 7:22-25

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The world is passing away and all I see is division among BELIEVERS! Again, no wonder non-believers mock God if we who DO believe even argue amongst ourselves! We live in a world where we are seperated by color, sex, sexual preference, social status, religion, national alliances and any other fruit of the natural senses we can think of. But what is the truth? The truth is a person, and that truth died for all of us to live in the Spirit of righteousness after the INNER MAN! It is here, that there is no division and we all are ONE!

John 4:23-24

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[phil36]

Romans 7:22-25

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The world is passing away and all I see is division among BELIEVERS! Again, no wonder non-believers mock God if we who DO believe even argue amongst ourselves! We live in a world where we are seperated by color, sex, sexual preference, social status, religion, national alliances and any other fruit of the natural senses we can think of. But what is the truth? The truth is a person, and that truth died for all of us to live in the Spirit of righteousness after the INNER MAN! It is here, that there is no division and we all are ONE!

John 4:23-24

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Hi Israel,

Thanks for your post, they are always good to read. there definatly is division on this subject, and I personally believe rightly so. For 'oneness' is NOT 'christianity, it does not worship the God of scripture.

they may talk the right words.. but if you listen to a mormon on your doorstep , so do they!

There are some things we should be Rightly Dividing.. and false teachings are one of them.

And I agree, we are one body if we believe in that Person, the Lord Jesus Christ the second person of the trinity.

Blessings

Phil

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The Bible teaches that it is a sin to teach false doctrine and also to reject sound doctrine. The Old Testament and Judaism distinguished between willful rebellion against God, which could not be forgiven by normal means, and a lighter transgression which was normally enforced by excommunication from the community. As false teachers began to arise in the early church, the apostles and then the early church fathers followed suit. Go read my earlier post on the top of page 17 of this thread in response to the rest of your post VW. Peace.

Why would one think that a false doctrine is sin? Every sin is an act, or a thought about an act, and has nothing to do with doctrines. Do some of us really believe that having what they consider a false doctrine to be on an equal basis with adultery, or idolatry, or murder? How about being equated with blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The bible does not teach. The bible is the written, inspired word of God, but it does not and cannot teach. To believe this and to trust in this, to believe that the bible has the power to teach us, well, that's pretty close to idolatry. The Holy Spirit teaches us, and the very first thing that He teaches us is to love one another. Then He teaches us to be at peace. And so on. The Holy Spirit is the proof of our salvation, not any doctrine.

 

[Israel]

Hi Israel,

Thanks for your post, they are always good to read. there definatly is division on this subject, and I personally believe rightly so. For 'oneness' is NOT 'christianity, it does not worship the God of scripture.

they may talk the right words.. but if you listen to a mormon on your doorstep , so do they!

There are some things we should be Rightly Dividing.. and false teachings are one of them.

And I agree, we are one body if we believe in that Person, the Lord Jesus Christ the second person of the trinity.

Blessings

Phil

I don't understand Phil. Is the God of the Bible anything other than the Spirit that Jesus mentioned?

 

[phil36]

Why would one think that a false doctrine is sin? Every sin is an act, or a thought about an act, and has nothing to do with doctrines. Do some of us really believe that having what they consider a false doctrine to be on an equal basis with adultery, or idolatry, or murder? How about being equated with blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The bible does not teach. The bible is the written, inspired word of God, but it does not and cannot teach. To believe this and to trust in this, to believe that the bible has the power to teach us, well, that's pretty close to idolatry. The Holy Spirit teaches us, and the very first thing that He teaches us is to love one another. Then He teaches us to be at peace. And so on. The Holy Spirit is the proof of our salvation, not any doctrine.

VW, this another Scripture especially for you:

Titus 2:1

1You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

Consumed, this one is for you:

10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Although Paul here is talking about one particular group of false teachers, the hermeneutic applies to all false teachers.

Blessings

Phil

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Let's demonstrate Christlike love and patience when correcting Oneness tritheistic and other Oneness misunderstandings.

 

[phil36]

I don't understand Phil. Is the God of the Bible anything other than the Spirit that Jesus mentioned?

Is God one, yet three persons?



Blessings

Phil

 

[VW]

Do we imagine that Titus or Timothy or Paul or James or John, or even Jesus, taught doctrine from their own learning? Or, did they teach from the power of the Holy Spirit? Teaching sound doctrine is not calling others who believe in and who love Jesus Christ, heretics. Phil, I have never been comfortable with the way you use your knowledge. That does not make me love you less, but does not change the fact that I believe you use knowledge in an inapproiate manner. And while you may feel justified, just as an observation, your methods and words do not build up others in Christ. I am sorry to say this to you, but feel compelled because of love. I know by the Spirit that some on this group have been hurt during this discussion. That saddens me. And it diminishes us as a group. Some say that this is only a discussion group, but there are real spiritual words here, from many who love Him above all else. All I have been trying to tell you is that this counts, very much. Jesus gave a very strong warning about harming His little ones.

In His love,
Vic

 

[Israel]

Is God one, yet three persons?



Blessings

Phil

Did not Jesus say that God is a Spirit?

 

[phil36]

Do we imagine that Titus or Timothy or Paul or James or John, or even Jesus, taught doctrine from their own learning? Or, did they teach from the power of the Holy Spirit? Teaching sound doctrine is not calling others who believe in and who love Jesus Christ, heretics. Phil, I have never been comfortable with the way you use your knowledge. That does not make me love you less, but does not change the fact that I believe you use knowledge in an inapproiate manner. And while you may feel justified, just as an observation, your methods and words do not build up others in Christ. I am sorry to say this to you, but feel compelled because of love. I know by the Spirit that some on this group have been hurt during this discussion. That saddens me. And it diminishes us as a group. Some say that this is only a discussion group, but there are real spiritual words here, from many who love above all else. All I have been trying to tell you is that this counts, very much. Jesus gave a very strong warning about harming His little ones.

In His love,
Vic

Hi VW,

VW, Paul etc, taught by the power of the Holy Spirt proper Doctrine, which is now laid down in Scripture. which by the way you don't hold in anyway authoritative for the believer (by your own admission).

Secondly, I those who believe in oneness theology, do NOT believe in the God of the Bible. Let me say this again, Oneness is an historically heresy.

How can they love Jesus when it is not the Jesus of Scripture, this is the whole point. and by the way, I have used the name heresy and heretic just as it was described by those gone before us, and in particualr those who had to contend with it when it first arose.

In believing that those who believe in a false god, are of the same Spirit as real christianity then I am afraid VW and it is very sad and sorrowful to say, that it is you who does God a diservice.

You say I am using knowledge in a wrong manner. However, I am just saying what believers from all time have said. it is you who disagrees with this.
I know you really want me to turn round and say, its all the spirit , its all love, and of course this is enarly true. But one thing you are forgetting VW, is that Oneness Deny the real God of Scripture.

VW, i am not concerned if you are comfortable with what I say, for I am not comfortable with those who teach and preach False doctrines, and those who profess to be Christians and side with false teachers, Scripture says alot about this very matter.

The very reason this is so important is so that those young in Christ are not deceived by those who teach and preach falsehoods and against those who side with them. As I say, I certainly am not comfortable with fals teachers masquerading as Christians and worse still those who side with them and profess to love the Lord.

I am not sure why some have been hurt, maybe it is their conscience, but heresy and false teaching need strongly rebuked, and I will stand by this. Oneness is not Christianity VW, it does not believe in the God of Christianity, yet you fellowship with them as brothers in the light. I for one will not. I love them, my heart breaks for them, but I will not fellowship with those who peddle falsehoods and are bent on deceiving others.

You say your pitying words because I take a stand not only against false teachers but of your denial of the role of Scripture. The truth is the truth, if it hurts peoples feelings, well that's the truth, many will be upset by the truth. We live in an age where even professing christians don't know what the truth is.
Blessings

Phil

 

[phil36]

Did not Jesus say that God is a Spirit?

God is Spirit, but God is the Father, Jesus is God the Son (God-man) 2nd person of the trinity, and the Holy Spirit is Spirit the third person of the Trinity.

Blessings

Phil

 

[Israel]

God is Spirit, but God is the Father, Jesus is God the Son (God-man) 2nd person of the trinity, and the Holy Spirit is Spirit the third person of the Trinity.

Blessings

Phil

A couple of questions then. If God is a Spirit, what is the Father comprised of if the Holy Spirit is also a spirit being who is God? Is Jesus the true temple of the Father?

 

[phil36]

Hi Israel,

if you read through the posts concerning this topic you will see we have been through all this.

Do you believe that God is one yet three persons. always have been from all eternity, each sharing the same essence/substance and attributes? for that is the God of Scripture.

Blessings

Phil

 

[phil36]

Hi Israel,

If you want to know about what Christians have always believed about God, and it is important as it also affects the atonement, watch this sermon by Mark Driscoll, It may not change your mind but atleast you will know.

here::: Mars Hill Church | Doctrine | Trinity: God Is

Blessings

Phil

 

[Israel]

Hi Israel,

if you read through the posts concerning this topic you will see we have been through all this.

Do you believe that God is one yet three persons. always have been from all eternity, each sharing the same essence/substance and attributes? for that is the God of Scripture.

Blessings

Phil

I believe that God is a Spirit whos purpose is to recreate Himself through us, His children. I believe that Jesus is our elder brother who reprents that Spirit without measure in His image and worthy of all praise and glory. I also believe in a Spirit-guided common sense approach to scripture above any creed or doctrine of man as we all must individually work out our own salvation.

 

[VW]

Phil,
You think that because I trust in the Spirit for truth that I deny the scriptures, but I have never denied the scriptures. You say that I endorse falsehood by fellowshiping with those who have bad doctrine, but is that truly the case? Paul taught in fear and trembling. Do you know why? Because he realized , from having the rug of scriptural truth pulled violently out from under him. By Jesus. Paul knew scripture better than we ever will, before he encountered Jesus. He counted it all for loss in order to know Jesus Christ. You remind me off the old Paul. The crucified with Christ Paul said that he was with them in much fear and trembling. He knew where his knowledge, gained by study, had led him.

I was like you, long ago. I could slay the best of them, with truth gained from scriptures. It took an encounter to cause me to have fear and trembling. I am confident in Jesus Christ. Nothing else.

 

[phil36]

Hi VW thanks for your reply.

Yes it is most certainly the case concerning the false teaching of 'oneness'. Not only do they deny who God is which is Idolatry for they have made their own God. this is nothing new it has been a heresy since it was fist concocted in the 2nd century... not from the apostles, but a 2nd century heresy. This is not a case of bad doctrine, this is a case of blatantly denying who God is and replacing Him with a false god.

I have to disagree with you, false teaching and heresy slay souls of those decieved by it. you agree that those who willingly and with full knowledge of the heresy of oneness, that they are christians. This is false for they deny the very God of christianity and replace it with their own God.

As I said before people may not like it, they may not like me for it, but I am not going to side with false teaching, you may if you wish, and you already have that is your decision but I won't.

Of course the biggest get out clause is..'I used to be like you' I very much doubt you where VW.

If something is false teaching, it is false teaching, no matter how you try and dress it up it is false. from the time of the first perpetrators in the 2nd century and the one now. It is an age old heresy VW and it is not christianity no matter how it is dressed up.

That said, I love the guys/ladies who hold this, but I certainly will not embrace their false teaching as professing christians seem to have done, by agreeing with them. and if that does not make me popular, so be it, but I will stand with those who stood for truth before us right back to the begining.

Love is not a liscence to embrace every whim and false teaching, for if you do this you do a diservice to those who follow false teachings, Love is caring enough for peoples souls as to stand and speak the truth, if this comes as a stern rebuke it is needed, for this is not just bad theology, it is heresy.

Blessings

Phil

 

[VW]

See, I never said to agree with them, as I do not agree with this doctrine.

But you still miss the point.

You see, even though I have never denied the scriptures are from God, true words inspired by His Spirit, you have leveled this accusation against me over and over again. Because I do not trust in what is written without the Spirit's understanding. I am convinced that we must have a faith which rests on the power of God, not on the wisdom of men.

What you are calling heresy, this oneness doctrine, are you so sure that you are correct in your view of the trinity doctrine, that you can condemn others with the word heretic? If you look closely, you will find that both are doctrines which are actually supported in scripture. And if you look closely, you will also find that both are doctrines which have endured for a long time, and that both are actually positions which are first believed, then supported by scripture. Except in the case of the Spirit's revelation. And this is my only point, the thing I have stated over and over in many different ways, that we need to have His revelation, His teaching, to know the truth. Just because a doctrine is defined in some creed, even though it is a true doctrine, believing because of a creed, because of a historical belief by the church, this is not enough, this does not constitute attaining to the truth of God. The truth of God is attained by hearing God by His Spirit.

And if there be any other thing which is wrong, God will reveal it to you.

Blessings,
vic

 

[phil36]

See, I never said to agree with them, as I do not agree with this doctrine.

But you still miss the point.

You see, even though I have never denied the scriptures are from God, true words inspired by His Spirit, you have leveled this accusation against me over and over again. Because I do not trust in what is written without the Spirit's understanding. I am convinced that we must have a faith which rests on the power of God, not on the wisdom of men.

What you are calling heresy, this oneness doctrine, are you so sure that you are correct in your view of the trinity doctrine, that you can condemn others with the word heretic? If you look closely, you will find that both are doctrines which are actually supported in scripture. And if you look closely, you will also find that both are doctrines which have endured for a long time, and that both are actually positions which are first believed, then supported by scripture. Except in the case of the Spirit's revelation. And this is my only point, the thing I have stated over and over in many different ways, that we need to have His revelation, His teaching, to know the truth. Just because a doctrine is defined in some creed, even though it is a true doctrine, believing because of a creed, because of a historical belief by the church, this is not enough, this does not constitute attaining to the truth of God. The truth of God is attained by hearing God by His Spirit.

And if there be any other thing which is wrong, God will reveal it to you.

Blessings,
vic

VW,

You keep saying and pointing the finger at me about this 'oneness' being a heresy, I take you do no church history? or atleast you have read the posts regarding this matter? I re-iterating what the church since the second century has called 'oneness' theology', and now in modern times even the pentecostals deem them the same.

First of all let me clarify something, the truth of God comes by the Spirit by means of His word. Scripture is the Standard of Truth!

Now concerning your concern over man made doctrines, Firstly, 'Monarchianism' and its counterparts, where man made, this idea came in the 2nd century, it had already been the belief from the time of the Apostles, the Trinity, the triune God. That is why, we have it articulated at a later date, because up until a late date in the early church The triune God is what people believed. and as you are also aware as other heresies came along.


Secondly, you agree with the creed then rubbish it?? you might have well as said just because the creed is true, doesnt mean it is true?? anyhow, to inform you again The nicene creed was just affirmation of the church had already believed, and its formulation only came because of the result of heresies and thos intent on decieving people.

You see VW it is not just an issue of who God says He is, its also an issue regarding the Atonement and who the person of Jesus is.. Did the Father die for you... ?

Thirdly can I ask you a question VW.

Do you have Faith in the triune God of Scripture that the Holy Spirit inspired and the Church has always believed ?

or

Do you believe in the 'oneness' God, that never appeared until the 2nd century, was deemed as heresy, and always has been even to this day even their brothers in pentecostal church cast them out.

So which God do you have Faith in VW?


Blessings

Phil

 

[distinctiveministry]

Thank you VW.
YOU are a true brother in Christ, whom we both love and serve as our Lord and Savior. I can see that we disagree about the nature of God, and yet we are both willing to charitably speak the truth to one another for the sake of building each other (and others, too) up in Christ. While Phil is concerned that I am teaching another gospel that is not a gospel at all, you see that you and I both want nothing more than for as many people as possible to know Christ and to have the Spirit of God dwelling in them and teaching them the truth. I don't resent your Trinitarian beliefs, even though I disagree, but rather I praise God that through you, many more will come into the light and be adopted as children of the Living God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I would have you know that I moved from being Trinitarian to Oneness beliefs because I tried to defend Trinitarian doctrine and was unable to do so against some very persuasive, very scriptural teaching. I realized that as a Trinitarian, I was understanding God as three persons, then trying from that point to understand His Oneness. I held the threeness to be true, but could not defend His Oneness adequately and maintain His threeness. Then I was led to understand that, just as with Israel and all Jews, including the apostles themselves, we must begin with God's Oneness, then understand the revelation of Christ and the Spirit in light of the Oneness of God. I am convinced that the disciples, faithful and Torah observant Jews, would have rejected Christ had he claimed to be another person of a Godhead that had not been clearly revealed in the Torah. Since He instead clearly said that when you see Him, you see the Father, the disciples could maintain their faithful Torah obedience by understanding Jesus to be God in the flesh, that is, YHWH in an earthly tabernacle not built by human hands, but God Himself.
Again, the main difference between Trinitarians and Oneness is the starting point, whether three persons, or One God.
At any rate, I didn't intend to get into all of that, but just to thank you for being persistant in your beliefs and in your loving attitude toward those with whom you disagree. I see Christ in you.