Trinity vs. Oneness

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Are you Trinitarian, or Sabellian (Oneness, usually, Oneness Pentecostal)?

  • Trinitarian

    Votes: 45 77.6%
  • Sabellion

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • What's the difference?

    Votes: 7 12.1%

  • Total voters
    58
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
We live in an age in which all sorts of people call themselves Christian, even if their continuity with historic Christianity is outright broken. This is not a new problem. All three of the Johannine letters deal with problems from schismatic groups, and in 1 and 2 John one of the characteristics of these groups is that they are heretical. The vast majority of our semi-Christian heresies acknowledge Jesus.

The Johannine community was struggling with heretical teaching. In 1 John 4:1 we read that “many” false prophets have left the church community for the world. In 2 John 4 we read that “some” of the Christians are walking in the truth, while in 2 John 7 we learn that there are “many deceivers.”

The impression is that the majority of the church is defecting and going “out into the world,” probably to form their own groups based on their own doctrines exactly what we see with the Oneness doctrine.

The root of the heresy in both 1 John 4:2–3 and 2 John 7 is the denial of “Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.” There is a grammatical difference between the two passages that may indicate a shift in emphasis, but the root concept is the same in both.

In Johannine terminology to confess something is not simply to agree that it is correct, but to acknowledge one’s allegiance to it. So to confess Jesus Christ would be to state that one is committed to him as Lord. But why does John use the double title “Jesus Christ” and “in the flesh”? This phrase in 2 John is designed to rule out christological heresy. Oneness theology denies who Jesus is (the second person of the triune God of the Bible one in perfect essence with the persons of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit).

In 1 John 4 the heretics claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit when they teach what they do about Jesus. This does not mean that they were under direct Spirit-control at the time of their speaking, but that they were claiming that this was what the Spirit had taught them. John says that one can tell the true Spirit of God by the doctrine he teaches. The true Spirit has the right doctrine; the spirit that does not lead people to pledge their allegiance to the orthodox Christ is in fact not the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of antichrist.

This statement is not grounds for calling up spirits and trying to get them to speak through people and making them affirm or deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or who, in fact Jesus is, but it is grounds for examining the doctrine of the person who claims prophetic inspiration and seeing if it corresponds with the orthodox confession.

In 2 John we do not hear of the spirit-inspiration of the heretics, but they are themselves called deceivers and antichrist. It appears that they were trying to infiltrate the orthodox house churches and were actively recruiting people to their way of thinking. That is why they are deceivers and why the people need to “watch out” that they do not lose what they have in Christ (2 Jn 8).

The Christian church finds its unity not around this or that doctrine, but around Jesus Christ in truth with an accurate understanding of Him. To reject the real Jesus, either by denying his true humanity (being “in the flesh”) or by denying his divinity (by denying that Jesus was really the Christ... the second person of the one Triune God of the Bible which together existed before the universe was created), is to break with the faith and to split from the church community.

It is not that doctrine is the key issue, but that it expresses the distinguishing characteristics of the actual person to whom one is committed. The one not committed to the real Jesus Christ does not know either the Father or the Son, according to John (emphasis added) and remain professors not possessors.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
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Hi AOK,

Thanks for your well written and informed post. I learned alot with it. It is very unfortunate that in our times that we have some, who would just say " ahh it does not matter if they believe and preach heresy, we just need to love one another". this is partly of the problem people who are not willing to speak out against those teaching heresy..wolves in sheep clothing

Also others will say it makes them feel bad to hear someone call others (non christian) beliefs heresy,especially against those who openly preach it.. unfortunatly that does no justice whatsoever. It makes me sick to the core those who openly preach a false God in the disguise of Chritianity, they not only decieve others but they rubbish the name of the Lord most High.

It is through the love of God that we speak out against such things not embrace them with empathy, wolves are wolves, tares are tares..

Anyhow, great post AOK

Blessings

Phil
 
Mar 2, 2010
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Hi AOK,

Thanks for your well written and informed post. I learned alot with it. It is very unfortunate that in our times that we have some, who would just say " ahh it does not matter if they believe and preach heresy, we just need to love one another". this is partly of the problem people who are not willing to speak out against those teaching heresy..wolves in sheep clothing

Also others will say it makes them feel bad to hear someone call others (non christian) beliefs heresy,especially against those who openly preach it.. unfortunatly that does no justice whatsoever. It makes me sick to the core those who openly preach a false God in the disguise of Chritianity, they not only decieve others but they rubbish the name of the Lord most High.

It is through the love of God that we speak out against such things not embrace them with empathy, wolves are wolves, tares are tares..

Anyhow, great post AOK

Blessings

Phil
That's right, Phil, we just need to love one another. I didn't say that's how we get saved. I didn't say you needed to empathize. I just said you are supposed to have the same heart that God has for others, which you don't. You say "it is through the love of God that we speak out against such things..." I can understand where you are coming from when you say that, but...
You don't do it in a loving way, so I doubt that love is your motive.

I worship YHWH God.
I believe Y'shua (Jesus) is God in the flesh, fully God and fully man.
I believe the Spirit is God.
I believe that Y'shua is my only hope of salvation and that by faith in Him.
I strive to be obedient to God in everything, confess my sins to Him, and repent when I realize that I am living sinfully.

But because I believe that it was YHWH who came in the flesh and who now works among us by His spirit, you believe I am going to hell, leading others there, and treat me spitefully.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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Hi Distinctive,

I was actually addressing AOk and not yourself!

I am not going to apologise for saying what you believe and teach is heresy,in fact the church Fathers said it along time again when the heresy first reared its ugly head.

If by saying you are a heretic because you plainly believe a heresy in full knowledge and then go on to teach it as truth (which is your aim), then yes you are a heretic. Infact, that is the position the church has always held Distinctive. Your Brand of Jesus is not the Lord and Saviour in Scripture. It is a heretical statement and your quite proud of it.

Now you and Ricke are definatly in full lknowledge of what you believe, for Ricke says he's a minister, you have been to bible college and reject the trinity, and I think I read on your profile awaiting a ministry. So you are with full knowledge and wilfully preaching and teaching heresy.

There really is no other way to say it Distinctive, oneness and its likes are heresy, plain and simple! there are multitudes being decieved by this lie and deception and my heart bleeds for them, however you and Ricke on the other hand Know and deny the tiune God and follow and try and decieve many by talking and teaching a heretical theology.

It is those who you decieve in your full knowledge that my heart goes out to. By the way Distinctive, I do love you. But that will not stop me from pointing out your heretical theology.

Blessings

Phil
 
Mar 2, 2010
537
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It is heresy because it is defined as such by people, just people. And if you want to say something to AoK and don't want others to read and respond to it, then PM him or send him a message, don't post it to the thread.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
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Hi Distinctive, it was ment to be read by all, but the thrust was not aimed at you personally which you seemed to think. anyhow, It was the exact heretical teachings you follow that were designed by men.. It was not until the 2nd century that these heresies started. It was up to the Faithful to contend for the truth that had been believed from the time of the Apostles. not the man made heresy you know follow and try and pass of as truth.

That is why the creed on the trinity was written, so that all would not be fooled by guys like yourself who follow heresies.... especially about God! so you are correct it was articulated because of those heretics who tried to infiltrate the body of believers with falsehoods, just like the one you follow.

Blessings

Phil
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
I think everybody participating in this discussion understands the difference between trinitarian doctrine and oneness doctrine. We just disagree about what these verses mean. I think we also all know that nobody is about to just up and switch sides in this conversation. This is a good thing, for it is unhealthy to hold your views and understanding so weakly that you are "blown about by every wind of doctrine".
Generally speaking, however, I think there is a substantial difference between trinitarians and oneness other than the obvious doctrinal difference. From what I have seen here, Oneness believers have a more generous view of God's salvation, as we don't usually feel the need to call Trinitarians heretics, although we strongly believe they are BADLY mistaken about the nature and identity of God. We certainly believe that knowing the real nature of God makes a big difference in one's relationship with Him, but we don't think that those who otherwise love the Lord our God and serve Him with their lives will go to destruction because their views are built on a misunderstanding of scripture.
Trinitarians in this conversation, on the other hand, have a MUCH less charitable attitude toward oneness believers. Phil has called quite a few people heretics and said that they are not saved, and David pretty much plainly said that I am not saved because of my beliefs. To the Trinitarian, understanding God's nature correctly is essential for salvation. Among the Trinitarians, I have seen a charitable attitude toward those of a different view only from VW. I think this is highly disappointing.
I have not found that to be true. I have never called a Oneness believer a heretic, but I am told over and over again that I pervert the gospel. I have answered every question and often find that the Oneness believers do not respond. In addition, at least the UPCI holds to a doctrine that says I do not have full salvation because of the baptismal formula under which I was baptized. So, even on this site, I have not found your assertion to be true.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
i voted 'whats the difference" as in who cares,
im washed clean in His blood, redeemed, forgiven,co heir to the promise, every spiritual blessing has been given me to claim thru faith, not doctrine.

sometimes it seems some just go round round the mountain and forget about the Cross that sits atop it - Jesus
 
I

Israel

Guest
We would all get along if we would but only use Jesus definition of God. God is a Spirit. And that Spirit takes form in us, His children conformed to the image of Jesus.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
It is heresy because it is defined as such by people, just people. And if you want to say something to AoK and don't want others to read and respond to it, then PM him or send him a message, don't post it to the thread.
Is is heresy because Jesus and the apostles defined it as such as did the early Church fathers. Oneness modality was excommunicated for good reason both past and present.

This doesn't mean God doesn't love you and want you to come to know Him as He is (as orthodox Christianity has taught from the beginning) because He does. But obviously you will first have to choose to stop resisting who God really is and teaching excommunicated Oneness heresy.

Until when and if you make such a decision, authentic Christians who adhere to orthdox historical scriptural doctrine will resist the false teaching and false teachers of Oneness Pentecostalism.

What is Oneness Pentecostal theology? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Just in this thread a Oneness Pentecostal asserted that Oneness doctrine is "the narrow way" that Jesus spoke of and that authentic Christians that hold to orthdox historical Christianity constitute "the broad path that leads to destruction" seriously misrepresenting what Jesus was saying... actually perverting it.

I have no problem calling Oneness doctrine heresy. Jesus and the apostles never taught it and neither did the early church fathers or any historically accurate orthodox Christian assembly today. It was excommunicated past and present for presenting a false portrayal of who God is.

Those caught in it certainly can repent of it. God loves them very much as we've stressed repeatedly.

I have not found that to be true. I have never called a Oneness believer a heretic, but I am told over and over again that I pervert the gospel. I have answered every question and often find that the Oneness believers do not respond. In addition, at least the UPCI holds to a doctrine that says I do not have full salvation because of the baptismal formula under which I was baptized. So, even on this site, I have not found your assertion to be true.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
Is is heresy because Jesus and the apostles defined it as such as did the early Church fathers. Oneness modality was excommunicated for good reason both past and present.

This doesn't mean God doesn't love you and want you to come to know Him as He is (as orthodox Christianity has taught from the beginning) because He does. But obviously you will first have to choose to stop resisting who God really is and teaching excommunicated Oneness heresy.

Until when and if you make such a decision, authentic Christians who adhere to orthdox historical scriptural doctrine will resist the false teaching and false teachers of Oneness Pentecostalism.

What is Oneness Pentecostal theology? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

hmmm orthodox denomination, holy of holies etc,. i come from a full orthodox background, icons, stand in church,arms folded, only the priest can enter the holy of holies, they even have it set up as such in church with the holy of holies set up

praise God
 
Mar 2, 2010
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I know that this isn't what any of you said, but just to clarify...I do not belong to the Oneness Pentecostal groups or any other Oneness place of worship. There is only one in my area that I'm aware of, and a lot of unbiblical things happening there just as in most of the churches.
I believe Oneness doctrine, but fellowship with Trinitarians presently.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


hmmm,
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
You are confusing the meaning of Orthodoxy with the Roman Catholic Church and maybe even the Eastern Orthodox Church but I'm not using the word to denote either. I'm using it as a Bible scholar would use the word in a discussion on a point of heresy.

Literally, the word orthodoxy is translated as “right praise” or “right belief” (as opposed to heresy). Being orthodox implies being characterized by consistency in belief and worship with the Christian faith (in the ancient Catholic tradition [not to be confused with the modern Catholic Churches] and consistency with the teachings of Jesus, the apostles, and the early church fathers) as witnessed to in Scripture, the early Christian writers and the official teachings, creeds and liturgy of the early church.

My usage of the word orthodox or orthodoxy or Catholic in this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the Eastern or Roman Catholic Church or their rituals in the world today.

hmmm orthodox denomination, holy of holies etc,. i come from a full orthodox background, icons, stand in church,arms folded, only the priest can enter the holy of holies, they even have it set up as such in church with the holy of holies set up

praise God
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Interesting. Do not lead new believers astray into Oneness doctrine and possibly cause a split in that assembly.

Rather, be teachable and find mature educated scholarly leaders in the assembly with which to have these discussions with.

May God reveal Himself to you as He is in all His fullness: the persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all in perfect union sharing the same essence as the Biblical one true God fulfilling different functional roles exactly as scripture teaches.

I know that this isn't what any of you said, but just to clarify...I do not belong to the Oneness Pentecostal groups or any other Oneness place of worship. There is only one in my area that I'm aware of, and a lot of unbiblical things happening there just as in most of the churches.
I believe Oneness doctrine, but fellowship with Trinitarians presently.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
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For anyone interested and wants to hear what Christians belive about God, there is a good sermon (video) from Mark Driscoll. I have watched this myself and I personally believe we will all benefit from watching it. what does God reveal about Himself in scripture is very important to what you actually believe.

The video can be seen here at Marshillchurch , the video title is 'Trinity: God is' heres the link Mars Hill Church | Doctrine | Trinity: God Is

I do mean out of all sincerity that this will benefit you/us in your walk with God

Blessings

Phil
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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I have not found that to be true. I have never called a Oneness believer a heretic, but I am told over and over again that I pervert the gospel. I have answered every question and often find that the Oneness believers do not respond. In addition, at least the UPCI holds to a doctrine that says I do not have full salvation because of the baptismal formula under which I was baptized. So, even on this site, I have not found your assertion to be true.
By the same token, I hold the trinity view of God, but have not called anyone a heretic, and have stood against those who insist on doing so. I tend to ignore those who call me names. However, some here would be offended, most likely have been offended. I see nothing from this conversation but division.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
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Calling someone a heretic because they believe and follow heresy and in the full knowledge of it, is the same as calling a builder..well, a builder.

Heresy needs to be pointed out and condemned as such. for it decieves and causes destruction..upon the soul!

Jesus:

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”

Matthew 23:31, 35 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. . . so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.” [In this instance Jesus did not need to name the false teachers as He was face to face with them and calling them out publicly in the temple square.]

Paul:

2 Corinthians 11:13 “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.”

2 Timothy 2:17-18 “And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.”

2 Timothy 4:14 “Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.”

Peter:

2 Peter 2:1 “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.”

2 Peter 2:15-16a “Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; but he received a rebuke for his own transgression…”

John:

1 John 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

3 John:9-10 “I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.”

Likewise, the early church Fathers were so committed to the public rebuke of false teachers that they actually named heresies after the false teachers who promoted them (i.e., “Arianism” after Arius, “Pelagianism” after Pelagius, etc.).
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
Jesus Himself actually call's them ''Ravenous wolves'