True or False - "Another Jesus"?

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Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
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Texas
#21
There is no enmity between Jesus and the Law, he is the law, he full filled the law, and completed the law, on our behalf, because we have no ability to keep it.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#22
There is no enmity between Jesus and the Law, he is the law, he full filled the law, and completed the law, on our behalf, because we have no ability to keep it.
Jesus is the Law?
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,252
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#23
The Jesus of modern-day Christianity all too often seems to be One who hated His Father's Law, especially the Sabbath day, and abolished it. He hated the holy days of YHWY, and abolished them. He came preaching a gospel which virtually abolished the entire TaNaCh (Old Testament), the Laws of YHWY, and ridiculed and condemned all the religious leaders of the Jews.

To believe that the Old Testament has value in a modern-day Christianity is to be "legalistic". As if havings laws and following them are wrong!! In spite many scriptures of the Old Testament state they are forever, instead they are to be ignored, so says the learned.

Did Jesus come to make a new religion? When did the House of Judah make Jewish laws? Did Jesus hate the Pharisees and Sadducees for "adding to the laws"? Does that same Jesus hate the adding to and the taking away from the foundation of our Christian faith?

Are our beliefs handed down to us from seminary to pulpit? Does your leader/pastor tell you that Jesus is nothing like the God of the Old Testament? That Jesus nailed the Laws to the cross? That Peter's vision of unclean foods are now perfectly OK to eat, however we still call men "unclean" or "legalistic" or "forbidden"?

Just what does the Bible say is to be liefted up or what does the Bible say is on a lesser scale than what we are taught by educated seminary graduates in the church?

How many Christian denominations are there and which one is closest to being what the Bible teaches?

I really like the scriptural debates here on CC. At least we know people are reading their Bibles, right? And growing in maturity? So let's challenge the readers of the Bible and see if this clear as mud discussions can become as Living Waters.
Jesus said very plainly He didnt come to abolish the law which you would think would be end of discussion but the grace people will always ignore these things.
 
Nov 11, 2018
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#24
Someone mentioned my screen name, as if I don't believe in God's grace.
So here is a simple explanation of my screen name.

Grace911 = Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

The grace χαρις G5485 charis = 911
Chi=600; alpha=1; rho=100; iota=10; sigma=200

Jesus was born in the Julian Date of September 11, 3 BC (Tishri 1/Feast of Trumpets) thus = Grace911

In the beginning ראשית H7225 re'shiyth 911, accept that Genesis 1:1 has a very large Bet at the beginning of the word "re'syiyth" 911+2 +913, which if you study a bit of Hebrew, you realize that "House" and "Family" and "Unity" is the beginning of the Torah. Another place where a well placed very large Bet is in the word "Eden" which is 124 +2 = 126.

Jesus is the Word, Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The conclusion is that "Grace 911+2" was in the beginning (Genesis 1:1) and "Grace" in the Greek language is 911 in the last scripture of the New Testament (Revelation 22:21)

So whether you rely on "Grace" in the OT or the NT, it is in both.

The Law of Moses was never for Salvation, only correction, direction, protection, blessings, and unity of the body of believers. Just think, if we could all rely on the trustworthiness of the Entire Bible and live out the for ever commands as the fruit of our faith, what a wonderful unity we would have. But no, we must wait until the Second Coming of Christ who will rule with a rod of iron to beat the INSTRUCTIONS into our "stiffnecked followers".

So YHWY = 26 and iron in the chemical chart = 26. Can you see your future yet?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#25
Someone mentioned my screen name, as if I don't believe in God's grace.
So here is a simple explanation of my screen name.

Grace911 = Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

The grace χαρις G5485 charis = 911
Chi=600; alpha=1; rho=100; iota=10; sigma=200

Jesus was born in the Julian Date of September 11, 3 BC (Tishri 1/Feast of Trumpets) thus = Grace911

In the beginning ראשית H7225 re'shiyth 911, accept that Genesis 1:1 has a very large Bet at the beginning of the word "re'syiyth" 911+2 +913, which if you study a bit of Hebrew, you realize that "House" and "Family" and "Unity" is the beginning of the Torah. Another place where a well placed very large Bet is in the word "Eden" which is 124 +2 = 126.

Jesus is the Word, Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The conclusion is that "Grace 911+2" was in the beginning (Genesis 1:1) and "Grace" in the Greek language is 911 in the last scripture of the New Testament (Revelation 22:21)

So whether you rely on "Grace" in the OT or the NT, it is in both.

The Law of Moses was never for Salvation, only correction, direction, protection, blessings, and unity of the body of believers. Just think, if we could all rely on the trustworthiness of the Entire Bible and live out the for ever commands as the fruit of our faith, what a wonderful unity we would have. But no, we must wait until the Second Coming of Christ who will rule with a rod of iron to beat the INSTRUCTIONS into our "stiffnecked followers".

So YHWY = 26 and iron in the chemical chart = 26. Can you see your future yet?

What are the "forever commands" according to the Hebraic Roots movement?
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,801
1,363
113
#26
Someone mentioned my screen name, as if I don't believe in God's grace.
So here is a simple explanation of my screen name.

Grace911 = Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

The grace χαρις G5485 charis = 911
Chi=600; alpha=1; rho=100; iota=10; sigma=200

Jesus was born in the Julian Date of September 11, 3 BC (Tishri 1/Feast of Trumpets) thus = Grace911

In the beginning ראשית H7225 re'shiyth 911, accept that Genesis 1:1 has a very large Bet at the beginning of the word "re'syiyth" 911+2 +913, which if you study a bit of Hebrew, you realize that "House" and "Family" and "Unity" is the beginning of the Torah. Another place where a well placed very large Bet is in the word "Eden" which is 124 +2 = 126.

Jesus is the Word, Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The conclusion is that "Grace 911+2" was in the beginning (Genesis 1:1) and "Grace" in the Greek language is 911 in the last scripture of the New Testament (Revelation 22:21)

So whether you rely on "Grace" in the OT or the NT, it is in both.

The Law of Moses was never for Salvation, only correction, direction, protection, blessings, and unity of the body of believers. Just think, if we could all rely on the trustworthiness of the Entire Bible and live out the for ever commands as the fruit of our faith, what a wonderful unity we would have. But no, we must wait until the Second Coming of Christ who will rule with a rod of iron to beat the INSTRUCTIONS into our "stiffnecked followers".

So YHWY = 26 and iron in the chemical chart = 26. Can you see your future yet?
but u dont really keep the torah. you dont sacrifice animals or stone people. im sure of it.

isnt all torah forever what you said?

this is why i dont believe in hebrew roots movement, its not logical or biblical. all the orthodox jews are laughing at hebrew roots so called christians. they dont consider you to be a real jew, if you claim faith in Christ and i dont consider you a real christian because you are bringing in same heresy as st.paul combat in galatians and the church council in acts 15.

i cant remember who it was here who said it but i will forever remember it, it went something like: "whenever i hear someone say 'according to jewish customs' or 'in ancient judaism' i already brace myself that ok false doctrine is coming down the pipe"

seems true
 
Nov 11, 2018
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#27
What are the "forever commands" according to the Hebraic Roots movement?
I use e-sword and plug in "for ever" in KJV and you will find your answer from the Bible. You do not need another denomination to add to or take away from the Pentateuch. Just believe what the Bible says.

Exo_12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exo_12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exo_12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

And if you believe the OT is for the Jews only, well then we have this:

Num_15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.

and this:

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

And just who is Israel today?

Eph_2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

The Good Shephered has come to find the "lost sheep:"

Psa_119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
Jer_50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
3,471
1,709
113
www.christiancourier.com
#28
I use e-sword and plug in "for ever" in KJV and you will find your answer from the Bible. You do not need another denomination to add to or take away from the Pentateuch. Just believe what the Bible says.

Exo_12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exo_12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exo_12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

And if you believe the OT is for the Jews only, well then we have this:

Num_15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.

and this:

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

And just who is Israel today?

Eph_2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

The Good Shephered has come to find the "lost sheep:"

Psa_119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
Jer_50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And there is this as well. :)
The Book of John chapter 10 " just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,801
1,363
113
#29
And just who is Israel today?

Eph_2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

The Good Shephered has come to find the "lost sheep:"

Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
on this episode of proof-texting gone wrong.

Jesus says that during His earthly ministry but after resurrection its no longer to just lost sheep of Israel look:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
3,471
1,709
113
www.christiancourier.com
#30
on this episode of proof-texting gone wrong.

Jesus says what He says during His earthly ministry but after resurrection its no longer to just lost sheep of Israel look:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
I don't think you did Grace911's post a fair service in cutting part of their post so as to imply they are saying Jesus came only for the Jews. That's not what I got from the entirety of their post at all. They asserted that Jesus came for all people not just the Jews.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,801
1,363
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#31
I don't think you did Grace911's post a fair service in cutting part of their post so as to imply they are saying Jesus came only for the Jews. That's not what I got from the entirety of their post at all. They asserted that Jesus came for all people not just the Jews.
he is saying torah observant people are true jews today which is why he quoted that ephesians thats how i see/understood it

if u are right i apologize truly.

my point was: gentiles dont become jews when they convert.
 
Nov 11, 2018
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#32
but u dont really keep the torah. you dont sacrifice animals or stone people. im sure of it.

isnt all torah forever what you said?

this is why i dont believe in hebrew roots movement, its not logical or biblical. all the orthodox jews are laughing at hebrew roots so called christians. they dont consider you to be a real jew, if you claim faith in Christ and i dont consider you a real christian because you are bringing in same heresy as st.paul combat in galatians and the church council in acts 15.

i cant remember who it was here who said it but i will forever remember it, it went something like: "whenever i hear someone say 'according to jewish customs' or 'in ancient judaism' i already brace myself that ok false doctrine is coming down the pipe"

seems true
As for as I know I am not Jewish by bloodline, but one must study the OT with the understanding that the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel is the gentiles. It's been since 721/722 BC that the House of Israel (ten tribes) were taken into captivity and scattered throughout the entire earth.

Deu_30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

God divorced the Ten Tribes. God said they committed adultery by going after other gods. God's law (Deut. 24:1-4) says He cannot take them back to be His wife again. But Paul figured out this mammoth mystery. Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth FRUIT unto God.

Do you serve in your church? Is that not "works" or fruit of your faith/ labour? God says we are to be a peculiar people, a treasure, a delight and a LIGHT for the nations. Knowing God's calendar, that is His solar/lunar calendar, and knowing and understanding the Feast Days, ie Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Shavuot, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Ingathering, many names for each, but if you study you will know them all and how Jesus fulfilled only the first 4 Spring Feasts perfectly and He will fulfill the Final Feasts of the Fall days PERFECTLY. Will those days take you by surprise as a thief coming in the night?

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Are you watching the future Feast days and understand God calls them "Rehearsals".
 
Nov 11, 2018
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#33
he is saying torah observant people are true jews today which is why he quoted that ephesians thats how i see/understood it

if u are right i apologize truly.

my point was: gentiles dont become jews when they convert.
ADOPTION:
Rom_8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom_8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom_9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, (DEUTERONOMY 24:1-4) that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

GRAFfED IN:
Rom_11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom_11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom_11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom_11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

So that the whole world might have opportunity for salvation through Christ, we may say I am adopted, or I am graffed in, or I am AWAKENED to who the gentiles are and what they mean to God the Father and Jesus the Son.
 
Nov 11, 2018
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#34
on this episode of proof-texting gone wrong.

Jesus says that during His earthly ministry but after resurrection its no longer to just lost sheep of Israel look:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.

Nations = H1471 = gôy gôy go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Nations = G1484 ethnos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Multitude of Nations = Gen_48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother (Ephraim, youngest son of Joseph) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (H1471)

Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (G1484) be come in.

Israel adopts his two youngest grandsons - Gen_48:5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

The Ten Tribes are often referred to as Ephraim, House of Israel and lost sheep. The Ten Tribes were divorced by God and Jesus fulfills the husband dying and freeing the adulteress wife to remarry, even He who has risen from the dead.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,801
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#35
lost tribes werent lost they were written to by st. james:

James 1:1

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,388
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#36
The Jesus of modern-day Christianity all too often seems to be One who hated His Father's Law, especially the Sabbath day, and abolished it. He hated the holy days of YHWY, and abolished them. He came preaching a gospel which virtually abolished the entire TaNaCh (Old Testament), the Laws of YHWY, and ridiculed and condemned all the religious leaders of the Jews.

To believe that the Old Testament has value in a modern-day Christianity is to be "legalistic". As if havings laws and following them are wrong!! In spite many scriptures of the Old Testament state they are forever, instead they are to be ignored, so says the learned.

Did Jesus come to make a new religion? When did the House of Judah make Jewish laws? Did Jesus hate the Pharisees and Sadducees for "adding to the laws"? Does that same Jesus hate the adding to and the taking away from the foundation of our Christian faith?

Are our beliefs handed down to us from seminary to pulpit? Does your leader/pastor tell you that Jesus is nothing like the God of the Old Testament? That Jesus nailed the Laws to the cross? That Peter's vision of unclean foods are now perfectly OK to eat, however we still call men "unclean" or "legalistic" or "forbidden"?

Just what does the Bible say is to be liefted up or what does the Bible say is on a lesser scale than what we are taught by educated seminary graduates in the church?

How many Christian denominations are there and which one is closest to being what the Bible teaches?

I really like the scriptural debates here on CC. At least we know people are reading their Bibles, right? And growing in maturity? So let's challenge the readers of the Bible and see if this clear as mud discussions can become as Living Waters.
One, your caricature of evangelical Christianity (and even Roman Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy) is propaganda that "lawkeepers" claim is true. It is not true. There are different views concerning the continuation of the Mosaic laws within Christianity. And, every congregation I have been a part of is very concerned about obedience to the commands that apply to THEM, not the commands given to ancient Israel. They can distinguish between morality and the ceremonial aspects of the Law.

Two, "lawkeepers" don't keep the Mosaic Law. They can't, because there is not a Temple and there is not a Levitical priesthood. All of the elements must be in place to keep the Mosaic Law. This includes making three annual pilgrimages to Jerusalem for the festivals (Deut 16:16). Almost no "lawkeepers" make this journey.

Three, "lawkeepers" create a dumb-down version of the Mosaic Law and insist that others must keep these laws as a standard of righteousness. It is not the Mosaic Law; it is their dumb-down version of it.

Four, many "lawkeepers" have no focus upon the need to receive Jesus' righteousness as their righteousness. This is a big issue. Even ancient Israel was unable to be justified by keeping the law, nor did it sanctify them.

Five, many "lawkeepers" aren't aware that the regeneration that accompanies salvation imparts to them the Holy Spirit, which guides them into progressively increasing holiness. The standard isn't the Mosaic Law....in fact, it falls short of true holiness, because it accomodated fallen men, particularly in the area of divorce. Additionally, some laws were meant to separate Jews from Gentiles, in order to keep a carnal nation from sinfulness (these include food and calendar observances). The standard is Jesus Christ. The believer has been united with Christ, and has the mind of Christ. Christ has yoked himself to the believer, and communicates with him on a spiritual level, informing him when he is displeasing God through his actions. The Holy Spirit uses the words of Scripture, properly understood, to do this, but ultimately it is Christ who is leading the person joined with Christ, and not the Mosaic Law.

Six, you are ignoring various Scriptures which say the Mosaic Law is not applicable to the NT believer. Read Acts 15, Rom 7:1-6, Galatians 3-4, Heb 7-8, Eph 2:13-15, 2 Cor 3. These passages state definitely that the Mosaic Law has been done away with. Additionally, they state that the believer isn't to be immoral, but he is not enslaved to Mosaic Law.

Seven, extremely condemning attitudes are often possessed by "lawkeepers". This is a tendency amongst them, and as a former "lawkeeper", I actually considered those who disagreed with Sabbath, festivals and clean meat laws as unbelievers. This is the very attitude that Rom 14 addresses.

Eight, "lawkeepers" seem to ignore that Jewish individuals kept the festivals and other observances (including physical circumcision; see Acts 21), but they were not required for Gentiles, so they use these verses to claim that all believers are required to observe them. They weren't required for Jews either, but some enjoyed the calendar observances, so they continued to observe them (see Rom 7:1-6). There should have been mutual respect and love for each other on this point, but this was lacking in the Church at different times.

Nine, the language of "new religion" is deceptive. The OT and the NT are one organic progression of salvation. However, the OT was full of types and shadows. They were a "pattern" or "model" of the reality, which is found in Jesus and the Church. Those who claim that we need to observe the Mosaic Law are like a woman that claims the dress pattern should be worn instead of the dress itself. I hope that younger people can understand this analogy, so I will explain that when people used to make their own clothing, they would buy the cloth, and then use a paper pattern to cut the cloth. They would then discard the paper pattern as it was a mere outline for drawing the dress. The Mosaic Law was largely like this paper pattern that pointed to the reality, which is Jesus and the Church.

These shadows and types, which pointed toward spiritual realities, include festivals and the weekly Sabbath. Food laws were used as separation commandments, to place a separation between Jews and Gentiles.

One must go through the hard work of figuring out what the purpose of the individual laws were, in order to determine whether they related to morality or not. Calendar and dietary observances are not moral in nature, and Romans 14 addressed these claims well. Each should follow their own conscience, and not condemn their brother who thinks otherwise. However, their brother must be addressed, and even harshly, if they claim that such observances define the difference between true believers and false believers.

Ten, the language of "forever" in regards to the Mosaic Law has to do with their economy, which disappeared with Jesus. It is more like "economy-lasting". Even physical circumcision was instituted "forever" but it is not a requirement for believers. Jews are not under the Mosaic economy, and neither are Christians.

Eleven, a charge is being made that Christians are simply traditionalist, and that "lawkeepers" have the true religion. This type of claim is an attempt to discredit Christianity, and is very common amongst "lawkeepers". It is true that some pastors today are traditionalists, and many believers are following traditions that are not valid. At the same time, though, some pastors have a clear understanding why they are not bound under the Mosaic Law, and they correctly instruct their congregation. They may have some of the details wrong, but in essence, they know that believers are not bound under the Mosaic Law.

Twelve, there is an attempt to discredit Christianity due to pointing out all the different denominations. So, where does this lead? This leads to the claim that the person represents the "true faith" rather than having the humility to acknowledge that their beliefs are simply one more opinion. In their mind, though, they are the true faith, and the rest, characterized as "denominations", are the counterfeit. Again, this is typical cultic behavior and claims, and I experienced the same thing as a member of a "lawkeeping" group.

By the way, there are many denominations with different opinions, but they agree on basic, core Christian concepts, particularly in the evangelical Christian camp. Here are some of these essentials: 1) the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ (Jesus is God and glorified man) 2) monotheism or the belief in one God 3) the doctrine of the Trinity 4) justification by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone 5) the inspiration and sole authority of Scripture as the rule of faith 6) substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross (Jesus died in the place of the believer) 7) original sin 8) virgin birth of Jesus 9) bodily resurrection of Jesus and 10) eternal reward of the righteous and eternal punishment of the unrighteous. A new believer might not understand the details of these teachings, but no sound evangelical bible teacher denies them. They are integral to the message of Scripture, because they are focused on the person and mission of Jesus Christ.

Often these "lawkeeper" groups deny one or more of them, view non-biblical writings as canonical, and discount the writings of Paul, claiming they are non-canonical. Paul was gifted at seeing the OT shadows and types and telling us what they mean in a NT context. That is why "lawkeepers" don't typically like his writings.

I would warn individuals against these manipulative techniques. One of the things I've done as a member of such a group is to carefully analyze their persuasive method in this regard. Because, the reality is that these methods show up not only in groups labeled as cults but in some Christian groups too.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#37
I would also encourage reading Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and Ephesians in order to counteract the wrong understanding that "lawkeepers" have. Read it along with the notes in the Zondervan NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible (use another version like the ESV for Scriptures if you are allergic to the NIV). This would go a long way to a good understanding of the underlying issues.

One must understand that the Mosaic Law was a "pattern" and the reality is Jesus and his Church. If you start wearing a paper dress or pants pattern around town, you're going to get arrested. You need the real clothing, which is Jesus, the New Covenant and his righteousness. And this doesn't involve living an immoral lifestyle; it involves serving others but not keeping the Mosaic Law regulations that are ceremonial in nature. Additionally, you are united with Christ and he transforms you over time.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#38
I would also encourage reading Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and Ephesians in order to counteract the wrong understanding that "lawkeepers" have. Read it along with the notes in the Zondervan NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible (use another version like the ESV for Scriptures if you are allergic to the NIV). This would go a long way to a good understanding of the underlying issues.

One must understand that the Mosaic Law was a "pattern" and the reality is Jesus and his Church. If you start wearing a paper dress or pants pattern around town, you're going to get arrested. You need the real clothing, which is Jesus, the New Covenant and his righteousness. And this doesn't involve living an immoral lifestyle; it involves serving others but not keeping the Mosaic Law regulations that are ceremonial in nature. Additionally, you are united with Christ and he transforms you over time.
Being a bit of a fashion buff, researching fashion trends over the centuries, I will let you know paper dresses were a thing in the 1960's, as far as I know no one was arrested.

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But I do agree Jesus is the real deal.:)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,388
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113
#39
Being a bit of a fashion buff, researching fashion trends over the centuries, I will let you know paper dresses were a thing in the 1960's, as far as I know no one was arrested.

View attachment 203816



But I do agree Jesus is the real deal.:)
That's hilarious LOL. I didn't know that people wore them in public.

I guess you would know what I mean by paper patterns though...I am talking about those thin brown patterns used long ago. I remember my mom's attempts to make her own dresses. I heard the analogy concerning the Mosaic Law and thought it was great.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#40
I think that if He’s Lord and He is, and the Lord of our life? He’s law. I understand what was said. I’ve asked Holy Spirit to keep me from sinning when tempted to act a certain way, or speak something not pleasing to Him. And I’m finding Him faithful. It’s our protection.