Twinkling of an eye
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The context is "the Day of the Lord ARRIVAL" (not the Person of Jesus Himself, as in other contexts, where THERE it says of Him "like a thief. [period]"... NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is used when it is speaking of HIMSELF/HIS PERSON, like Rev16:15-16 Armageddon timing/2nd Coming to the earth; the "TIME PERIOD ["DARK/DARKNESS"] precedes the arrival of HIMSELF/HIS PERSON ["SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion OF the entire long DOTL time period])
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/15-1.htm
5055 [e]
etelesthē
ἐτελέσθη
was completed
The "7th Trumpet" is a JUDGMENT trumpet (part of the SET), and the 7th takes place WELL-BEFORE the end of the trib. And these "7 VIALS" are said of them "seven LAST plagues" (not the first of them), and "because IN THEM the wrath of God WAS COMPLETED [G5055 [e] - etelesthē- / telos]" (not "is STARTED")
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/15-1.htm
5055 [e]
etelesthē
ἐτελέσθη
was completed
The "7th Trumpet" is a JUDGMENT trumpet (part of the SET), and the 7th takes place WELL-BEFORE the end of the trib. And these "7 VIALS" are said of them "seven LAST plagues" (not the first of them), and "because IN THEM the wrath of God WAS COMPLETED [G5055 [e] - etelesthē- / telos]" (not "is STARTED")
Study what the word "EACH [G1538]" means, in 1Cor15:23... and the other points I made.
You're just talking without examining, it seems.
The Trib saints (who DIE in the trib years) are just the final group of "resurrection OF LIFE" (ALL saints will be present and accounted for, FOR the MK age... NONE will be MISSING, and this is the point Rev20:4,6 is making ["BLESSED is he having A PART [G3313] in..."]<---check out what that means ['A PART' is not 'THE WHOLE ENTIRE THING' ])
You're just talking without examining, it seems.
The Trib saints (who DIE in the trib years) are just the final group of "resurrection OF LIFE" (ALL saints will be present and accounted for, FOR the MK age... NONE will be MISSING, and this is the point Rev20:4,6 is making ["BLESSED is he having A PART [G3313] in..."]<---check out what that means ['A PART' is not 'THE WHOLE ENTIRE THING'
])
S
When you give the definition of words, it would be more honest to give ALL, and not just the one that fit your dogma.
I also have Greek and Hebrew dictionaries.
It is obvious to me that you have made up your mind that ALL does not mean ALL, FIRST dies not mean FIRST, and LAST does not mean LAST, and it is a waste of my time to continue this discussion with you, so I will move on.
I also have Greek and Hebrew dictionaries.
It is obvious to me that you have made up your mind that ALL does not mean ALL, FIRST dies not mean FIRST, and LAST does not mean LAST, and it is a waste of my time to continue this discussion with you, so I will move on.
Then you can see that these are legit definitions... I supplied the links so you can see my source.
Show me the context
The context being? [John 5:29 and its TWO distinct references to "resurrection"]
okay, but the "LAST" regarding WHO and WHAT? [CONTEXT]… it's not sufficient to blur everything into one mish-mash of mush, which is all you're doing.
I don't feel that "Bible study" is a waste of time, and have been doing so for some 40+ years. (This, like "dcon" has said, does NOT make me CORRECT... however, I have not seen an argument yet that has convinced me to accept the "post-trib" viewpoint [or any others], though as I've said, I've examined all of the viewpoints thoroughly, and have been willing to go wherever Scripture leads. All I'm saying is "convince me" [scripturally/biblically]… I remain unconvinced).
Nice chatting with you. I've enjoyed the opportunity to discuss this Subject with you, and all the others who've participated in this thread/discussion.
Show me the context
The context being? [John 5:29 and its TWO distinct references to "resurrection"]
okay, but the "LAST" regarding WHO and WHAT? [CONTEXT]… it's not sufficient to blur everything into one mish-mash of mush, which is all you're doing.
I don't feel that "Bible study" is a waste of time, and have been doing so for some 40+ years. (This, like "dcon" has said, does NOT make me CORRECT... however, I have not seen an argument yet that has convinced me to accept the "post-trib" viewpoint [or any others], though as I've said, I've examined all of the viewpoints thoroughly, and have been willing to go wherever Scripture leads. All I'm saying is "convince me" [scripturally/biblically]… I remain unconvinced).
Nice chatting with you. I've enjoyed the opportunity to discuss this Subject with you, and all the others who've participated in this thread/discussion.
I know exactly what I wrote....and the prep is directed at KEEP and the word can be translated at least 4 different ways....I also said it was DISHONEST to peddle the word the way he did in light of the word KEEP.....so....I suggest pay attention to what was written...then come try to "catch me" in something that is not there!!!
And I verified nothing genius
And the fact YOU ignored what I wrote is a par for the course with you <---dishonesty
And I verified nothing genius
And the fact YOU ignored what I wrote is a par for the course with you <---dishonesty
You can forget arguing with these guys......if there is one thing I have learned is the complete dishonesty they bloviate......they reject context, verbiage, verb tense, definitions of words etc........Just like the other imminent returner denying that the WRATH of GOD is announced in HEAVEN before the throne as being here AT the sounding of the 7th trump....instead he peddles the wrath as being here when the cowards hiding in the caves say that it is here....NOT when it is actually announced....but hey.....time will tell....and the falling away will be directly tied to the majority that have been brain washed into believing that JESUS can come at any moment.....just watch
I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.
Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.
Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."
All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.
Nobody is going to heaven. Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. At least until the 1000 years are over. But even then New Jerusalem will be here.
Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. Rev. 5:10: "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
From this, we can deduce nobody is in heaven and nobody is going there.
Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.
Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."
All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.
Nobody is going to heaven. Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. At least until the 1000 years are over. But even then New Jerusalem will be here.
Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. Rev. 5:10: "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
From this, we can deduce nobody is in heaven and nobody is going there.
A related comment; ..... many do not understand location of the soul until Christ arrives. We are reminded that there is no time in the spirit world......0.
So when some wonder about a loved one who died 50 years ago being in the tomb all that time...we are reminded that from the time of death 50 years ago and the time of the rapture is....in a snap of the thumb/blink of the eye. No time....none. Otherwise ...absent from the body present with the Lord would have no meaning.
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Hello Preston,
Actually according to scripture, at the time of death for the believer, the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. Therefore, it is not a matter of the spirit remaining in the body and time having no bearing on the person who has died, but their spirit departs and is with the Lord. They are waiting from heaven side for the resurrection, while we who are still alive are waiting for the Lord's appearing to be changed and caught up.
The scripture that you quoted supports this in that it states "to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. We also have an example of this at the opening of the 5th seal with the souls under the altar who are in heaven, conscious and aware. We also have Paul saying the following:
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
First he says, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." It would be no gain if our spirits remained in the ground. But the gain that He is talking about is that the spirit departs from the body at the time of death to be in the presence of Christ.
Paul says that he is torn between the two, i.e. remaining in the body for fruitful labor and for the Philippian's benefit, or to die and leave his body to be in the presence of the Lord, which he says is "better by far."
The words "I desire to depart and be with Christ" infers immediacy, i.e. as soon as his body dies, his spirit will depart and go to be with the Lord. The word "depart" would demonstrate that the spirit leaves the body at the time of death.
Another example, is when Stephen was stoned he looked up and said "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." We are told that when Jesus ascended He was "seated" at the right hand of God. That Stephen sees Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God, is indicative of him standing to receive Stephen's spirit. In addition, Stephen says, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." We also have the following example regarding a synagogue leader who's daughter had died whom Jesus brought back to life:
"They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up.
In conclusion, when a believer dies, their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.
Actually according to scripture, at the time of death for the believer, the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. Therefore, it is not a matter of the spirit remaining in the body and time having no bearing on the person who has died, but their spirit departs and is with the Lord. They are waiting from heaven side for the resurrection, while we who are still alive are waiting for the Lord's appearing to be changed and caught up.
The scripture that you quoted supports this in that it states "to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. We also have an example of this at the opening of the 5th seal with the souls under the altar who are in heaven, conscious and aware. We also have Paul saying the following:
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
First he says, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." It would be no gain if our spirits remained in the ground. But the gain that He is talking about is that the spirit departs from the body at the time of death to be in the presence of Christ.
Paul says that he is torn between the two, i.e. remaining in the body for fruitful labor and for the Philippian's benefit, or to die and leave his body to be in the presence of the Lord, which he says is "better by far."
The words "I desire to depart and be with Christ" infers immediacy, i.e. as soon as his body dies, his spirit will depart and go to be with the Lord. The word "depart" would demonstrate that the spirit leaves the body at the time of death.
Another example, is when Stephen was stoned he looked up and said "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." We are told that when Jesus ascended He was "seated" at the right hand of God. That Stephen sees Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God, is indicative of him standing to receive Stephen's spirit. In addition, Stephen says, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." We also have the following example regarding a synagogue leader who's daughter had died whom Jesus brought back to life:
"They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up.
In conclusion, when a believer dies, their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.
Just for the readers (I've mentioned this before, but again for clarity), biblically speaking, the word "return" is used solely in the contexts of His Second Coming to the earth (not our Rapture): Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [that is, as ALREADY-WED]... THEN the meal [i.e. the G347 thing, in Mt8:11 and parallel]; and in Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" and then He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities"..."[likewise to him] Be thou over 5".
"Imminence" has to do only with the idea that all biblical "SIGNS" FOLLOW after [the moment of] our Rapture (none preceding it). This is not to say that there are no other biblical indicators, or that we are to be entirely clueless. It has only to do with "sequence/chronology," in that, all biblically-defined "signs" take place sequentially AFTER our Rapture (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" taking place AFTER our Departure/Rapture, and being the FIRST moments of the [7-yr] Trib, paralleling both Matt24:4/Mk13:5 and Rev6:2 [not to mention 2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a[26] as well]) and LEAD UP TO and point toward His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (not our Rapture).
Thus, technically, the words "imminence" and "return" do not belong in the same context or phrase (as they refer to distinct things at distinct points in the chronology). Pre-tribbers don't say this; they [we Pre-tribbers] don't use such a phrase (unless they are just mindlessly repeating what they've heard others say )
Just to make things clear.
"Imminence" has to do only with the idea that all biblical "SIGNS" FOLLOW after [the moment of] our Rapture (none preceding it). This is not to say that there are no other biblical indicators, or that we are to be entirely clueless. It has only to do with "sequence/chronology," in that, all biblically-defined "signs" take place sequentially AFTER our Rapture (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" taking place AFTER our Departure/Rapture, and being the FIRST moments of the [7-yr] Trib, paralleling both Matt24:4/Mk13:5 and Rev6:2 [not to mention 2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a[26] as well]) and LEAD UP TO and point toward His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (not our Rapture).
Thus, technically, the words "imminence" and "return" do not belong in the same context or phrase (as they refer to distinct things at distinct points in the chronology). Pre-tribbers don't say this; they [we Pre-tribbers] don't use such a phrase (unless they are just mindlessly repeating what they've heard others say
)Just to make things clear.
Question.
Are you postrib rapture guys aware that the trumpets blown are DURING THE GT ?? THE SEVENTH INCLUDED??
They PRECEED THE VIAL/BOWL judgements.
How is last trump possibly seventh trump????
But you guys paint yourself in a corner because the dead in christ rise at the at the last trump,so your deal is IMPOSSIBLE.
Rev 14 has 3 gatherings which YOU GUYS UNKNOWINGLY PLACE BEFORE THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE.
Your wishy washy recklessness reprints the bible to say the dead in christ DO NOT preceed the living.
But hey just pretend you have the high ground. It got you this far.
Are you postrib rapture guys aware that the trumpets blown are DURING THE GT ?? THE SEVENTH INCLUDED??
They PRECEED THE VIAL/BOWL judgements.
How is last trump possibly seventh trump????
But you guys paint yourself in a corner because the dead in christ rise at the at the last trump,so your deal is IMPOSSIBLE.
Rev 14 has 3 gatherings which YOU GUYS UNKNOWINGLY PLACE BEFORE THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE.
Your wishy washy recklessness reprints the bible to say the dead in christ DO NOT preceed the living.
But hey just pretend you have the high ground. It got you this far.
S
YES, I am aware that the seven trumps are sounded during the tribulation that is to come.
The vials are AFTER the seventh (last) trump.
So to say we do not believe that, is wrong.
Just why is it impossible for the dead in Christ to rise first at the seventh (last) trump and than those who are alive be changed "in the twinkling of an eye"?
That is the first resurrection.
SO, how can the tribulation saints, who are resurrected after the tribulation, and "the church", both be in the first resurrection if not at the same moment, "in a twinkling of an eye"?
There can be only one first resurrection. If you are not in that first resurrection you will suffer the second death.
The vials are AFTER the seventh (last) trump.
So to say we do not believe that, is wrong.
Just why is it impossible for the dead in Christ to rise first at the seventh (last) trump and than those who are alive be changed "in the twinkling of an eye"?
That is the first resurrection.
SO, how can the tribulation saints, who are resurrected after the tribulation, and "the church", both be in the first resurrection if not at the same moment, "in a twinkling of an eye"?
There can be only one first resurrection. If you are not in that first resurrection you will suffer the second death.
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