Twinkling of an eye

[dcontroversal]

My argument (which is the pre-trib stance) is not to say that the "Spirit" is "removed FROM THE EARTH," but that His "restraining role" (and in connection with "the Church which is His body") will be taken away (at the time of our Rapture), and I've pointed out in past posts (not sure if in this thread or in related threads) the great similarities between what 2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a is saying, to that of Lamentations 2:3-4 [context Lam2:1-7], where it says (in a "judgment" context):

--"He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [meaning, 'have at it, dudes!'], and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about." (showing a removal of a "restraining force/role" [though we know "God" is everywhere present, so not saying HE HIMSELF is removed, see]), and where...

--2Th2:7 says, "the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], 8 AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..." (which "revealed" I believe occurs at the START of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk, not the later mid-point that many suggest, and I've explained why I see it this way, in many posts). I've pointed out how THIS SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in the 2Th2:3-9 text, as well as being the identical SEQUENCE that 1Th4-5 also had stated. [much more, but this should suffice for now... no one reads the long posts ]

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer....grammatically translate every word from the Greek.......

Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way

Letteth-->Hold down, possess, seize, retain, take
Let -->HAVE or HOLD
TAKEN -->cause to be, to become, come into being, be assembled, brought to pass, arise, finish

Only he that now holds down or possesses will continue to HAVE Or HOLD until HE COMES INTO BEING or Arises..........

NOW......WHO empowers the BEAST? By what POWER does the BEAST stand?

?? Can the BEAST rise at any time or MUST HE come into being FIRST.............

Two things are required before the beast as the so called Anti-Christ can rise....

a. TIME
b. Whomever it is comes into being

WHO empower him? SATAN

My view.....regardless of any and all that have made this verse out to be the Holy Spirit restraining....I do not believe it....The one who has the power to empower will hold that power until it is TIME and the one that is going to be used ARISES........

 

[Nehemiah6]

Funny thing....Jesus left the Holy Spirit as comforter to lead and guide into all truth as well as convince the world of SIN judgment.......so.....if no spirit because it has been removed how do the people get convicted, enlightened and saved during the tribulation period....

People were getting saved until the Day of Pentecost by being justified by grace ever since Abel. But the Holy Spirit was given as a gift to every believer from that day to the present. So when the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way", the same conditions will prevail as before.

And it will be Moses and Elijah preaching primarily to the Jews, but also to the whole world, and demonstrating by their miracles that they are genuine prophets. This will only be for 1260 days (42 months or 3 1/2 years)

another hole in the false imminent return fable started in the 1800's.............

That is incorrect. When Christ spoke of His coming for the saints it was always with the understanding that it could be at any time (imminent) -- unannounced and unexpected. So calling this a 19th century fable is mere propaganda.

 

[Melach]

That is incorrect. When Christ spoke of His coming for the saints it was always with the understanding that it could be at any time (imminent) -- unannounced and unexpected. So calling this a 19th century fable is mere propaganda.

can you prove to us the imminent unannounced unexpected? doesnt it say it comes as a thiev in the night to 'them' who would be unbelievers? but to us who are in the day. it doesnt

or what do you mean?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer....grammatically translate every word from the Greek.......
Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way
Letteth-->Hold down, possess, seize, retain, take
Let -->HAVE or HOLD
TAKEN -->cause to be, to become, come into being, be assembled, brought to pass, arise, finish
Only he that now holds down or possesses will continue to HAVE Or HOLD until HE COMES INTO BEING or Arises..........

So, my sentence had been "the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be]"...

(which only differs slightly from what I see here, at Bible Hub: https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm … well, if you hover the cursor over the last word, you can see where I agree with what it says there: "become [come to be]" G1096 … "until out of the midst he BE COME [come to be]" ['AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed" which I've said I believe is the equivalent of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" aka SEAL #1 when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" in HIMSELF opening the first SEAL)

 

[Nehemiah6]

can you prove to us the imminent unannounced unexpected? doesnt it say it comes as a thiev in the night to 'them' who would be unbelievers? but to us who are in the day. it doesnt

or what do you mean?

"A thief in the night" is simply a metaphor used by Christ to indicate an event that is unannounced and unexpected. So Christ comes as a thief in the night for His saints, and the day of the Lord also comes as a thief in the night for the unbelieving world (but not for believers).

 

[Melach]

i think the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, church or the archangel michael.

in the book of daniel you see he is fighting and new king comes. persian king if i remember correctly.

 

[dcontroversal]

People were getting saved until the Day of Pentecost by being justified by grace ever since Abel. But the Holy Spirit was given as a gift to every believer from that day to the present. So when the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way", the same conditions will prevail as before.

And it will be Moses and Elijah preaching primarily to the Jews, but also to the whole world, and demonstrating by their miracles that they are genuine prophets. This will only be for 1260 days (42 months or 3 1/2 years)

That is incorrect. When Christ spoke of His coming for the saints it was always with the understanding that it could be at any time (imminent) -- unannounced and unexpected. So calling this a 19th century fable is mere propaganda.

Not hardly...............and show me where it says it will be Moses and Elijah preaching primarily to the JEWS......there are so many preconceived holes in the above three ideas that to even address them would take pages of scripture.....wow man.....WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS LOOK UP and last time I checked....anyone with eyes in their head can see lightning strike in the east and shine unto the west.....and it is painfully obvious that a dead animal is in the ditch due to the buzzards gathered....IT IS VISIBLE and EVER EYE shall see him come....it i not some imminent, invisible badda bing and everyone wonders where we went........WOW

 

[Melach]

"A thief in the night" is simply a metaphor used by Christ to indicate an event that is unannounced and unexpected. So Christ comes as a thief in the night for His saints, and the day of the Lord also comes as a thief in the night for the unbelieving world (but not for believers).

1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
1Th 5:6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

perhaps this is talking about the second coming and what it means is that it wont surprise us as a thief since we have already been raptured out? is that correct understanding in your view?

what imminence verses do you mean can you give me example.

 

[dcontroversal]

"A thief in the night" is simply a metaphor used by Christ to indicate an event that is unannounced and unexpected. So Christ comes as a thief in the night for His saints, and the day of the Lord also comes as a thief in the night for the unbelieving world (but not for believers).

FALSE again...do you even study or just spew?

BUT BRETHERN, you are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a THIEF.....two verse down and IN CONTEXT

 

[dcontroversal]

1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
1Th 5:6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

perhaps this is talking about the second coming and what it means is that it wont surprise us as a thief since we have already been raptured out? is that correct understanding in your view?

what imminence verses do you mean can you give me example.

You just posted ONE of the MANY holes in the imminent return farce...keep studying...it is false

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

See, I don't believe ANY of the Olivet Discourse covers the Subject of our Rapture at all (thus, Lk21:28 is not speaking of "Rapture," but of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [promised to Israel , not to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN)])

 

[Absolutely]

But in John 17 Jesus prays against rapture:

John 17:15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by d the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Apples < > oranges.

Jesus is neither referring to the gathering of the bride (mat 25,1thes4) or the GT.
John 17 is referring to the business in heaven.(which postribs bypass,since we would never,ever see heaven in a postrib model)

Besides that, Jesus is basically invoking ps 91,which is the protection of Gods family,those intimate with him.(ps 91 protection has 2 conditions). Now,during the GT we see ps91 removed,and power given to the ac to martyr the saints left behind.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The Day of the Lord [lengthy time period]" STARTS/ARRIVES "IN THE NIGHT" [1Th5:2-3, etc] ("DARK"/"DARKNESS"/"no light in it")… and this is consistent with Paul saying that WE (the Church which is His body) are "not of the night"... etc (we will not be present on the earth at that time... for that "DARK" portion OF the DOTL time period) [could say much more...]


Jesus HIMSELF comes "as a thief." (NO "IN THE NIGHT" words accompany the phrase where referring to HE HIMSELF, Rev16:15-16 Armageddon-timing [the later, 2nd Coming to the earth], for example. The DOTL TIME PERIOD is what ARRIVES "as a thief IN THE NIGHT" [i.e. the "DARK"/"DARKNESS" time period, involving "the man of sin" [Dan7:7, etc])

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus is coming from HEAVEN and BRINGING the dead SAINTS in Christ WITH HIM....WE MEET in the AIR...not heaven!

Thus bypassing john 14,mat25,mat24,rev19.
Remove the rapture verses and pooof! the postrib rapture is born!!!
Amazing ,you guys have zero verses,and have whipped every bit of hide off that thing trying to make it go.

Oh,and yes he does bring all of us with him FROM HEAVEN. We are in heaven in rev 19 during the gt.

 

[dcontroversal]

"The Day of the Lord [lengthy time period]" STARTS/ARRIVES "IN THE NIGHT" ("DARK"/"DARKNESS"/"no light in it")… and this is consistent with Paul saying that WE (the Church which is His body) are "not of the night"... etc (we will not be present on the earth at that time... for that "DARK" portion OF the DOTL time period) [could say much more...]

Except for the fact that Paul and Peter tie the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ and Day of God together as ONE DAY......JESUS is LORD, CHRIST and GOD

One day and commence at the 7th trump IMO

 

[dcontroversal]

Thus bypassing john 14,mat25,mat24,rev19.
Remove the rapture verses and pooof! the postrib rapture is born!!!
Amazing ,you guys have zero verses,and have whipped every bit of hide off that thing trying to make it go.

Oh,and yes he does bring all of us with him FROM HEAVEN. We are in heaven in rev 19 during the gt.

You obviously like to assume without the facts.....I used to believe the imminent return farce....was raised in a church that crammed it down our throat, a few scriptures out of context and even dogmatically defended it until I actually had to study through the bible twice a year in seminary.....NOW>...if you are really HONEST and want to know why I believe in a post trib, pre-wrath ingathering go read the 212 page book I wrote on the subject in the BLOG section...otherwise, take you accusations and blather and go away......and the last line is hilariously false.....we are in heaven while WRATH is being poured OUT yes.....for sure!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Except for the fact that Paul and Peter tie the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ and Day of God together as ONE DAY......JESUS is LORD, CHRIST and GOD

One day and commence at the 7th trump IMO

Well, that's based on [like] the Amill-teaching has it (for example, among others) that "the Day of the Lord" consists of a singular 24-hr day, and/or is [merely] connected with His Second Coming to the earth [and thereafter]… but I've pointed out how, when the phrase "IN THAT DAY" is used in the SAME contexts as the phrase "the Day of the Lord," that they refer to the SAME time period (all through where found in OT references, like this)… and such is the case with what we see in the context of 2Th1-2 (both chpts as context), where BOTH OF THESE phrases are again used together, and speak of the SAME "time period" (I've pointed out how these two uses, here, are CONTRASTING the "beliefs" of those existing WITHIN those future trib yrs).

Additionally, 2Th2:2 is Paul telling them not to allow anyone to convince them that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (it wasn't, and he tells WHY). It was perfectly REASONABLE for them to believe such [a wrong thing] BECAUSE of their PRESENT, and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE experiences they were ENDURING, per 2Th1:4... etc (and at the OTHER END of the bracket-context, Paul is saying, essentially, "don't believe THEM, believe what WE taught you INSTEAD!" v.15)

V.3's "that day shall not be present if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST..." is speaking of the DOTL TIME PERIOD (not v.1's EVENT...only the latter part of this v. is!)

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, that's based on [like] the Amill-teaching has it (for example, among others) that "the Day of the Lord" consists of a singular 24-hr day, and/or is [merely] connected with His Second Coming to the earth [and thereafter]… but I've pointed out how, when the phrase "IN THAT DAY" is used in the SAME contexts as the phrase "the Day of the Lord," that they refer to the SAME time period (all through where found in OT references, like this)… and such is the case with what we see in the context of 2Th1-2 (both chpts as context), where BOTH OF THESE phrases are again used together, and speak of the SAME "time period" (I've pointed out how these two uses, here, are CONTRASTING the "beliefs" of those existing WITHIN those future trib yrs).

Additionally, 2Th2:2 is Paul telling them not to allow anyone to convince them that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (it wasn't, and he tells WHY). It was perfectly REASONABLE for them to believe such [a wrong thing] BECAUSE of their PRESENT, and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE experiences they were ENDURING, per 2Th1:4... etc (and at the OTHER END of the bracket-context, Paul is saying, essentially, "don't believe THEM, believe what WE taught you INSTEAD!" v.15)

SEE....you added to and assumed something....I do not believe it is a 24 hour period, but rather a 1000 year period........It commences with the LORD seizing control of ALL earthly kingdoms at the 7th trump.....ALL three commence at the 7th trump...

a. The day of the Lord <---seizes control of all earthly kingdoms as LORD
b. The day of Christ <---resurrects, changes and REWARDS all that fear HIM (saints, prophets, young and old)
c. The day of God <---He pours out his wrath on the unbelieving world gathered under the beast

It is also interesting to note that when the 7th begins to sound TIME shall be no more......apply that the the above three

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT: ran out of time to edit my last sentence... Part A of verse 3 is speaking of the IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING verse (grammatically), whereas "the departure FIRST" speaks of the noun-event back in verse 1.

What happens is that ppl, in reading v.3, reach WAY BACK OVER AND PAST v.2 to grab verse 1 and apply THAT to the phrase "that day shall not be present," when it is referring to "the Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD]" which will not be present until ONE THING *FIRST* (NOW the noun-event from v.1, HERE)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

SEE....you added to and assumed something....I do not believe it is a 24 hour period, but rather a 1000 year period

...but I had said "AND/OR" (not merely the "24-hr day" definition that SOME give). I'm saying that "the DOTL [time period]" STARTS well-before HIS [JESUS'] OWN arrival (His Own arrival [to the earth] at His Second Coming to the earth FOR the MK);

...the DOTL *involves* ALL that "the man of sin" will DO (over the course of the entire trib years LEADING UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth/Second Coming to the earth, Rev19)