Two Resurrections, Two Deaths, Three Lives.

[FreeGrace2]

Good morning First off and again, Rev is a highly symbolic book.

The account of seeing souls under the altar who speak isn't symbolic.

But even with that aside, that one verse does not say they were conscious the whole time of them waiting.

Well, I suppose some of them could have taken naps from time to time. lol

Many other verses say those who are saved and pass on sleep in Christ. Sleep is not a euphemism for wakeful awareness as so many claim. I mean really, the idea that is, is is outlandish.

I think what is outlandish is completely missing the figure of speech that people have fallen asleep. It means they have died.

Nothing more or less.

The notion that the soul sleeps is nonsense.

Consider what Jesus said about Lazarus in John 11 -

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,

Now, if you can find where Jesus was speaking of "soul sleep", please be my guest and point it out.

 

[Magenta]

I think what is outlandish is completely missing the figure of speech that people have fallen asleep. It means they have died.

Nothing more or less.

The notion that the soul sleeps is nonsense.

Consider what Jesus said about Lazarus in John 11 -

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,

Now, if you can find where Jesus was speaking of "soul sleep", please be my guest and point it out.

You say nothing more and nothing less but then you ADD that they are awake and conscious somewhere.

“Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.”

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up."

The most common word for death in the Bible is sleep.

One source cites 54 references to death as sleep in the OT and another 18 in the NT.

How this can be interpreted to mean wakeful awareness is beyond me.

People sleep when they are dead and people are souls, which implies that souls sleep.

Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since
a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they perish.

Traditionalists claim sleep only refers to the body. If they closely examine 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,
they realize they contradict themselves. They claim verses 13-15 talk about disembodied souls
coming back with Christ, yet this passage also says they are asleep three times. When the Bible
is only talking about the spirit, the passage says the spirit (Ecclesiastes 12:7, Psalms 146:4).
When Scripture is only talking about the body, the passage says the body. For example, Jesus
mentions the body seven times during the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:3-7:27). The Bible
would say the body sleeps if only referring to the body.

For in death there is no remembrance of You. In the grave who will give You thanks? Psalms 6:5

What profit is there in my blood, When I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it declare Your truth? Psalm 30:9

Will You work wonders for the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise You?
Shall Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or Your faithfulness
in the place of destruction? Shall Your wonders be known in the dark?
And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Psalm 88:10-12

But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

Many Bible commentators will not accept Scriptures that contradict their preconceived ideas,
so Ecclesiastes 9 causes them problems. For example, a footnote in The Living Bible
says, "These statements are Solomon's discouraged opinion, and do not reflect a
knowledge of God's truth on these points!" The Scofield Bible Commentary also has a
footnote that says these verses are not a divine revelation from God. source

WOW. They deny the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture!

Other scholars also deny the inspiration of this passage. Yet these same scholars use
other verses in Ecclesiastes, as well as other writings of Solomon, to prove their case.
Solomon knew spirits return to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). If the spirit is a conscious entity
outside the body after death, Solomon contradicts himself in the same book.

Jesus talks about the wisdom of Solomon (Matthew 12:42, Luke 11:31) and the glory of
Solomon (Matthew 6:29, Luke 12:27). Jesus, however, never says Solomon preached false
doctrine. Denying the inspiration of God in Ecclesiastes 9 is putting assumptions above the Bible.

"So a man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep." Job 14:12

As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness. Psalm 17:15

 

[FreeGrace2]

You say nothing more and nothing less but then you ADD that they are awake and conscious somewhere.

Don't know what you mean by my "saying nothing more and nothing less". ??

I didn't "add" anything. I noted what is in the Bible.

“Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.”

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up."

The most common word for death in the Bible is sleep.

As a figure of speech.

One source cites 54 references to death as sleep in the OT and another 18 in the NT.

Surely you must understand what a figure of sleep is.

How this can be interpreted to mean wakeful awareness is beyond me.

I didn't do that. Please read more carefully. John noted the souls under the altar, all quite awake and speaking. These are people who have died and gone to heaven.

Do you think that when a believer dies, their soul goes to heaven for a nap?

People sleep when they are dead and people are souls, which implies that souls sleep.

No "implication" whatsoever. It's a figure of sleep, just the way Jesus used it in John 11 for Lazarus.

Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since
a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they perish.

Congrats! You have found clear evidence that the Bible is contradicted. LOL

Traditionalists claim sleep only refers to the body. If they closely examine 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,
they realize they contradict themselves. They claim verses 13-15 talk about disembodied souls
coming back with Christ, yet this passage also says they are asleep three times.

Because they are referring to the bodies of the believers who have died. This isn't difficult.

For in death there is no remembrance of You. In the grave who will give You thanks? Psalms 6:5
What profit is there in my blood, When I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it declare Your truth? Psalm 30:9

Will You work wonders for the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise You?
Shall Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or Your faithfulness
in the place of destruction? Shall Your wonders be known in the dark?
And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Psalm 88:10-12

But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

More congrats to you for finding MORE verses that contradict the Bible.

Many Bible commentators will not accept Scriptures that contradict their preconceived ideas,
so Ecclesiastes 9 causes them problems. For example, a footnote in The Living Bible
says, "These statements are Solomon's discouraged opinion, and do not reflect a
knowledge of God's truth on these points!" The Scofield Bible Commentary also has a
footnote that says these verses are not a divine revelation from God. source

WOW. They deny the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture!

Other scholars also deny the inspiration of this passage. Yet these same scholars use
other verses in Ecclesiastes, as well as other writings of Solomon, to prove their case.
Solomon knew spirits return to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). If the spirit is a conscious entity
outside the body after death, Solomon contradicts himself in the same book.

Jesus talks about the wisdom of Solomon (Matthew 12:42, Luke 11:31) and the glory of
Solomon (Matthew 6:29, Luke 12:27). Jesus, however, never says Solomon preached false
doctrine. Denying the inspiration of God in Ecclesiastes 9 is putting assumptions above the Bible.

"So a man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep." Job 14:12

As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness. Psalm 17:15

Please prove to me that the souls under the altar in Rev 6 were taking a nap. Otherwise, congrats on proving that the Bible is contradicted!

 

[Magenta]

Surely you must understand what a figure of sleep is.

Sure. It's someone sleeping.

John noted the souls under the altar, all quite awake and speaking.
These are people who have died and gone to heaven.

Yes, he did and he did not say they had been there awake and watching the whole time, either.
I already responded to this, must you keep repeating yourself as if I had not already???

Do you think that when a believer dies, their soul goes to heaven for a nap?

They go to be with the Lord. Does not say anywhere they are awake and aware
and watching etc. Nope. Many times over it is said they are sleeping in Him.

More congrats to you for finding MORE verses that contradict the Bible.

Unlike you, I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. Line by
line and precept by precept the Bible teaches what I believe.

 

[Mem]

FreeGrace2 said:
Believers are conscious in heaven, and unbelievers are in a place of torments. If dead
unbelievers are in a place of torments, you can be quite sure they ARE VERY conscious.

Consider context, please.

The verse refers to dead people as opposed to living people.

If dead people know nothing, please explain Rev 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The "they" in v.10 and v.11 and the "them" in v.11 all refer to "the souls who had been slain" in v.9.

Doesn't look like they "know nothing". Rather, it SHOWS that they KNOW SOMETHING.

Abel's blood cried out to God, surely you don't take that literally?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Surely you must understand what a figure of sleep is.

Sure. It's someone sleeping.

Well, maybe you don't understand a figure of sleep.

Sleep as a figure of speech: person physically died.
Sleep as literal: person taking a nap.

FreeGrace2 said:
John noted the souls under the altar, all quite awake and speaking.
These are people who have died and gone to heaven.

Yes, he did and he did not say they had been there awake and watching the whole time, either.[yo/QUOTE]

Are you trying to miss the point altogether?

From your comment, it seems you are comfortable with using "soul sleep" to mean "taking freqeunt naps".

What you do NOT have is any evidence from the Bible that souls sleep. That is a made up term.

I already responded to this, must you keep repeating yourself as if I had not already???

I respond to what posters post. If it seems I am repeating myself to your posts, think about it.

They go to be with the Lord. Does not say anywhere they are awake and aware

Oh sure. Believers die, leave their bodies in the grave, and "they go to be with the Lord" for nappy time. lol

and watching etc. Nope. Many times over it is said they are sleeping in Him.

I have a Bible software program and I couldn't find any verse that says this. Please at least cite some of the "many times" the Bible says what you claim. Thanks.

Unlike you, I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself.

Please prove that I do believe such a stupid idea. I pointed out that you apparently believe the Bible is contradicted by quoting all those verses about sleeping, vs Rev 6 and the souls under the altar.

Whom you apparently think spend much of their time napping, and John must have caught them in a brief moment of consciousness.

Line by
line and precept by precept the Bible teaches what I believe.

Then prove the Bible teaches that the soul sleeps after physical death. Rev 6 ALREADY refutes that idea, but don't let that slow you down.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Abel's blood cried out to God, surely you don't take that literally?

No, I don't, obviously.

Do you believe that a person's soul sleeps after physical death?

 

[Mem]

No, I don't, obviously.

Do you believe that a person's soul sleeps after physical death?

I believe Jesus woke Lazarus when He called out his name, which is attached to his soul and not just his body.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe Jesus woke Lazarus when He called out his name, which is attached to his soul and not just his body.

Is there any verse that mentions "soul sleep"? I haven't found any.

otoh, in Rev 6 John souls "souls under the altar" who were speaking, not sleeping. And 2 Cor 5:6,8 are clear examples comparing life on earth with death and the soul being with Jesus. And not
sleeping.

A figure of speech for physical death can be "passed away" or "has fallen asleep".

There is no mention of soul sleep in the Bible.

 

[Mem]

Is there any verse that mentions "soul sleep"? I haven't found any.

otoh, in Rev 6 John souls "souls under the altar" who were speaking, not sleeping. And 2 Cor 5:6,8 are clear examples comparing life on earth with death and the soul being with Jesus. And not
sleeping.

A figure of speech for physical death can be "passed away" or "has fallen asleep".

There is no mention of soul sleep in the Bible.

How do souls speak? physically?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do souls speak? physically?

Does it matter? The Bible made clear that souls were speaking. When the Bible is silent on details, we have no right to make up stuff or speculate.

Again, there is no mention of souls sleeping in the Bible. So we can't presume that they do sleep. They sure aren't sleeping in Rev 6. And they are speaking.

We need to accept what the Bible says, and not fill in the blanks.

 

[Mem]

Does it matter? The Bible made clear that souls were speaking. When the Bible is silent on details, we have no right to make up stuff or speculate.

Again, there is no mention of souls sleeping in the Bible. So we can't presume that they do sleep. They sure aren't sleeping in Rev 6. And they are speaking.

We need to accept what the Bible says, and not fill in the blanks.

When Jesus claimed that Lazarus was sleeping, Mary, Martha, or both I don't recall specifically, couldn't receive it so he rephrased his statement and said, 'he's dead.' At any rate, it's not clearly written whether Jesus was speaking of his soul, body, or all of him. If Jesus was speaking of just his body, it was seem to me to be uncharacteristically (suffering for my want of vocabulary) smart Alec since that was obvious to all considering the conjecture, "If you'd have been here, he wouldn't have died."

 

[ewq1938]

When Jesus claimed that Lazarus was sleeping, Mary, Martha, or both I don't recall specifically, couldn't receive it so he rephrased his statement and said, 'he's dead.'

Because he was dead. Sleeping when applied to a dead body just means they look like they are sleeping but are actually dead not asleep as a living person sleeps when tired.

 

[Mem]

Because he was dead. Sleeping when applied to a dead body just means they look like they are sleeping but are actually dead not asleep as a living person sleeps when tired.

Or, Jesus was saying "he's not dead, tho, just asleep. Even tho he looks very dead, he has actually gone into a state of rest, yet still lives. in Me... I am the resurrection...

 

[ewq1938]

Or, Jesus was saying "he's not dead, tho, just asleep. Even tho he looks very dead, he has actually gone into a state of rest, yet still lives. in Me... I am the resurrection...

You are making the same mistake the disciples made.

Sleeping can mean two things. Literal sleep, or a figure of speech that means to be dead. In various verses, sleeping is being dead not literal sleeping. It is speaking of the human body, not the spirit or soul.

Christ explained that here:

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The disciples misunderstood Christ when he said Lazarus is sleeping. The only way for the disciples to understand what he meant was by correcting their error. Don't make the same mistake the disciples made. Scripture is talking about death, not "sleeping". The dead are not "sleeping", they are dead. Their spirit and soul are in heaven or Hades depending on how they lived their lives and even there no one is asleep.


"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth" is the figure of speech.
"Lazarus is dead" is the literal and plain speech.

 

[Mem]

You are making the same mistake the disciples made.

Sleeping can mean two things. Literal sleep, or a figure of speech that means to be dead. In various verses, sleeping is being dead not literal sleeping. It is speaking of the human body, not the spirit or soul.

Christ explained that here:

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The disciples misunderstood Christ when he said Lazarus is sleeping. The only way for the disciples to understand what he meant was by correcting their error. Don't make the same mistake the disciples made. Scripture is talking about death, not "sleeping". The dead are not "sleeping", they are dead. Their spirit and soul are in heaven or Hades depending on how they lived their lives and even there no one is asleep.


"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth" is the figure of speech.
"Lazarus is dead" is the literal and plain speech.

Unless the mistake was thinking Lazarus was still alive.

 

[ewq1938]

Unless the mistake was thinking Lazarus was still alive.

It says what their mistake was: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

You are making the same mistake.

 

[Mem]

It says what their mistake was: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

You are making the same mistake.

I know he is speaking of lazarus' death.

 

[ewq1938]

I know he is speaking of lazarus' death.

Which means he was not actually sleeping so no support for soul sleep. The souls of the dead are not asleep but wide awake.

 

[Mem]

Which means he was not actually sleeping so no support for soul sleep. The souls of the dead are not asleep but wide awake.

In your view of it. I understand that. However, the glass you're looking through is no less darkly than mine at this vantage point.