Two things God wants for you.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
Hi FGC,
I think you err in thinking that actions need to be removed from salvation. Yet I'm not saying that our actions create, replace or are responsible for the benefits obtained by those actions. <--that is an important distinction that some find difficult to grasp.

It's like if my dad said "By my grace I've freely given you $1,000,000. I put it in your bank account this morning." I'll still have to write a check... or go to the bank to make a withdrawl..., or use my debit card... or something in order to actually receive the benefit. But that's not to be confused with creating the benefit. And certainly it's not taking the glory/credit/honor from the one who gave it (even though some try).

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Yes, but you were born and are alive to be able to make a withdrawal. Just as the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, has to be born again, and made spiritually alive to make a withdrawal from a spiritual bank. Eph 2.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
810
326
63
Yes, but you were born and are alive to be able to make a withdrawal. Just as the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, has to be born again, and made spiritually alive to make a withdrawal from a spiritual bank. Eph 2.
Cornelius was not spiritually alive when God sent the angel to him and told him that his (Cornelius') actions had provoked the sending of the angel to him. Cornelius didn't receive the Holy Ghost until the end of the chapter. Yet his actions initiated the receipt of the benefit.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
810
326
63
Cornelius was also instructed to take another more specific action (send for Peter) if he wanted to receive what God had for him through salvation... and after having received the Holy Ghost(Baptized in the Spirit) , Peter then commanded them to take the action that would wash away their sins (Baptism in water in Jesus name).

If Cornelius would have refused to do any of the actions set before him, he would not have received the benefit of that/those action(s).

So it is today. Some do things that God commands...and receive the benefits associated with those actions...and some do not.

Jesus said if any man hears his word and does it, that man will be like a wise person who digged deep to lay the foundation of his house, and it would stand the storm... and he that hears his word but does it not will be like a foolish man whose house was built upon the sand, which failed miserably when the storm arrived.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
Cornelius was not spiritually alive when God sent the angel to him and told him that his (Cornelius') actions had provoked the sending of the angel to him. Cornelius didn't receive the Holy Ghost until the end of the chapter. Yet his actions initiated the receipt of the benefit.
Cornelius was a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. These are evidences that Cornelius was already born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Compare Cornelius with the description of the natural man as stated in 1 Cor 2:14. God is a spirit. The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit until he has been regenerated by God and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
Cornelius was also instructed to take another more specific action (send for Peter) if he wanted to receive what God had for him through salvation... and after having received the Holy Ghost(Baptized in the Spirit) , Peter then commanded them to take the action that would wash away their sins (Baptism in water in Jesus name).

If Cornelius would have refused to do any of the actions set before him, he would not have received the benefit of that/those action(s).

So it is today. Some do things that God commands...and receive the benefits associated with those actions...and some do not.

Jesus said if any man hears his word and does it, that man will be like a wise person who digged deep to lay the foundation of his house, and it would stand the storm... and he that hears his word but does it not will be like a foolish man whose house was built upon the sand, which failed miserably when the storm arrived.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
And who is it that can hear his word? John 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, is not God's sheep.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,525
465
83
Since you told me that you do not care anything about what Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, it will be difficult for you to understand my further attempts to explain, but I will attempt;
I don't recall making such a statement. Please direct me to that post.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,525
465
83
Cornelius was a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. These are evidences that Cornelius was already born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Compare Cornelius with the description of the natural man as stated in 1 Cor 2:14. God is a spirit. The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit until he has been regenerated by God and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Cornelius was a devout man and did all the things you note. However, even that was not enough to gain his salvation. God sent an angel who instructed him to seek out Peter who would tell him how to be saved. (Acts 10:44-48)

Consider Peter's statement concerning Cornelius while speaking with the Jewish Council:

"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." Acts 11:13-14
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
Cornelius was a devout man and did all the things you note. However, even that was not enough to gain his salvation. God sent an angel who instructed him to seek out Peter who would tell him how to be saved. (Acts 10:44-48)

Consider Peter's statement concerning Cornelius while speaking with the Jewish Council:

"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." Acts 11:13-14
You will always have contradicting scriptures unless you understand that the Greek meaning of the word "saved" is "delivered". There is an eternal deliverance, and there are many scriptures that reference the deliverances we receive as we sojourn here in this world. Acts 11:14, being one example of being delivered upon hearing Peter's words telling them that their (Gentiles) eternal deliverance was accomplished on the cross, as well as the Jews. If you apply all salvation scriptures to reference an eternal deliverance, you will then have the scriptures confirming eternal salvation by man's good works, instead of by God's grace. All scriptures must harmonize, and 1 Cor 2:14's description of the natural man, before he has been born again, will not harmonize with your interpretation of Cornelius's demeanor.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
I don't recall making such a statement. Please direct me to that post.
I might owe you an apology. I searched your posts and could not find it. It could have been someone else, but his reply was "I don't care what Paul told the church at Corinth". Sorry.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,525
465
83
You will always have contradicting scriptures unless you understand that the Greek meaning of the word "saved" is "delivered". There is an eternal deliverance, and there are many scriptures that reference the deliverances we receive as we sojourn here in this world. Acts 11:14, being one example of being delivered upon hearing Peter's words telling them that their (Gentiles) eternal deliverance was accomplished on the cross, as well as the Jews. If you apply all salvation scriptures to reference an eternal deliverance, you will then have the scriptures confirming eternal salvation by man's good works, instead of by God's grace. All scriptures must harmonize, and 1 Cor 2:14's description of the natural man, before he has been born again, will not harmonize with your interpretation of Cornelius's demeanor.
God's grace is seen in His willingness to establish a way for mankind to be brought back into right standing when they didn't deserve it. One's belief in Jesus as the Messiah and obedience to His message of the need for repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and the receiving of the Holy Ghost is that way. (Acts 1, Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16) The Book of Acts outlines this truth for all peoples; Jews (Acts 2:1-40), Samaritans-half Jewish, half Gentile (Acts 8:12-17) and the Gentiles. (Acts 10:44-48) Notice that not one group of people was exempt from following the instructions given. Everyone alive today is a descendant from one of those groups of people.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,525
465
83
Restoration can only take place by following instructions provided in the beginning-Get Back to Acts.

Jude 3 states that the common salvation can be found when we earnestly contend for (search out) the faith that was once given to the saints. (apostles)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
God's grace is seen in His willingness to establish a way for mankind to be brought back into right standing when they didn't deserve it. One's belief in Jesus as the Messiah and obedience to His message of the need for repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and the receiving of the Holy Ghost is that way. (Acts 1, Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16) The Book of Acts outlines this truth for all peoples; Jews (Acts 2:1-40), Samaritans-half Jewish, half Gentile (Acts 8:12-17) and the Gentiles. (Acts 10:44-48) Notice that not one group of people was exempt from following the instructions given. Everyone alive today is a descendant from one of those groups of people.
You are ignoring 1 Cor 2:14, if you think the natural man has the ability to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and be obedient to his spiritual message of the need for repentance, of breaking a spiritual law, that he cannot discern, or understanding anything about water baptism, or receiving of the Holy Ghost. We are all ignorant of the things of the Spirit until God regenerates us with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2. Once we are born again, and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we, then, can discern the things of the Spirit. There is the natural, that has faith in man, and there is a spiritual man that has faith in spiritual things, which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
God's grace is seen in His willingness to establish a way for mankind to be brought back into right standing when they didn't deserve it. One's belief in Jesus as the Messiah and obedience to His message of the need for repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and the receiving of the Holy Ghost is that way. (Acts 1, Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16) The Book of Acts outlines this truth for all peoples; Jews (Acts 2:1-40), Samaritans-half Jewish, half Gentile (Acts 8:12-17) and the Gentiles. (Acts 10:44-48) Notice that not one group of people was exempt from following the instructions given. Everyone alive today is a descendant from one of those groups of people.
The way that God has of bringing mankind back into a right standing is not by man's choice, but man, when he was yet dead, spiritually. God quickened him together with Christ, Eph 2:5, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit., and exchanging his heart of stone with a fleshy heart. Eze 11:19.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
Restoration can only take place by following instructions provided in the beginning-Get Back to Acts.

Jude 3 states that the common salvation can be found when we earnestly contend for (search out) the faith that was once given to the saints. (apostles)
Spiritual faith was delivered to the saints, in the same manner that it is delivered to us, and that is in regeneration, with the receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which, faith is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, Gal 5:22. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot search out, or discern, spiritual faith, until he has been regenerated.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,525
465
83
Spiritual faith was delivered to the saints, in the same manner that it is delivered to us, and that is in regeneration, with the receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which, faith is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, Gal 5:22. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot search out, or discern, spiritual faith, until he has been regenerated.
You are missing the fact that all of mankind has to respond initially to God's drawing. Upon being presented with the truth as seen, throughout scripture, one believes the message and submits in obedience to the instructions given and become re-born spiritually. Without belief in and adherence to the entire message spiritual rebirth can not take place.

Jesus' words regarding what some must do to receive the Spirit points to the truth that carnal man must respond to God's drawing. Only after being filled with the Holy Spirit can one see spiritual truths clearly:

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

Evaluating the following scriptures confirms this truth:
Matthew 3:3, Luke 3:3, John 3:3,
Matt 16:16, Mark 16:16, Luke 16:16, John 16:16,
John 3:5, Titus 3:5,
Matt 28:19,
Acts 2:38-40, 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6...
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,525
465
83
You are ignoring 1 Cor 2:14, if you think the natural man has the ability to believe that Jesus is the Messiah,
Consider Jesus' words:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:23-24
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
You are missing the fact that all of mankind has to respond initially to God's drawing. Upon being presented with the truth as seen, throughout scripture, one believes the message and submits in obedience to the instructions given and become re-born spiritually. Without belief in and adherence to the entire message spiritual rebirth can not take place.

Jesus' words regarding what some must do to receive the Spirit points to the truth that carnal man must respond to God's drawing. Only after being filled with the Holy Spirit can one see spiritual truths clearly:

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

Evaluating the following scriptures confirms this truth:
Matthew 3:3, Luke 3:3, John 3:3,
Matt 16:16, Mark 16:16, Luke 16:16, John 16:16,
John 3:5, Titus 3:5,
Matt 28:19,
Acts 2:38-40, 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6...

The scriptures were not written to the natural man, but to God's elect children. Luke's account is of Jesus teaching his disciples how they should pray. Jesus is an older brother, and a friend to God's children. In chapter 11 Jesus is putting himself, in his example, as a friend, in giving them what they ask for. In verse 11 he compares a natural son and his father to God's children, and their Father. Just because we are God's children does not negate the fact that we still carry our fleshly evil nature with us, until we die a natural death. The natural man as described in 1 Cor 2:14, that cannot discern the things of the "Spirit", will not ask A "spiritual Father" to give them the "Holy Spirit". The only way that the natural man is given the Holy Spirit is explained in Eph 2:5, When he was yet dead (spiritually) in sins, and could not respond to spiritual things, God quickened (gave life) to him. Once the carnal man is regenerated, and has become a spiritual man, only then can he see spiritual truths clearly.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
83
You are missing the fact that all of mankind has to respond initially to God's drawing. Upon being presented with the truth as seen, throughout scripture, one believes the message and submits in obedience to the instructions given and become re-born spiritually. Without belief in and adherence to the entire message spiritual rebirth can not take place.

Jesus' words regarding what some must do to receive the Spirit points to the truth that carnal man must respond to God's drawing. Only after being filled with the Holy Spirit can one see spiritual truths clearly:

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

Evaluating the following scriptures confirms this truth:
Matthew 3:3, Luke 3:3, John 3:3,
Matt 16:16, Mark 16:16, Luke 16:16, John 16:16,
John 3:5, Titus 3:5,
Matt 28:19,
Acts 2:38-40, 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6...

All of your scriptural quotes are referring to the children of God, and to the church, which is called by several names in the scriptures, such as: The kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God, the church of God, the church of Christ, the church of the first born, the church in the wilderness, the New Jerusalem, Zion, the remnant, etc.


Preaching to the natural man, before he has been regenerated, will fall on deaf ears, because he cannot discern the things of the Spirit until he has been regenerated and given the indwelling of thee Holy Spirit in the new birth. This is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go to preach to the "lost sheep" (God's born again children), of the house of Israel. Matt 10:6.