Understanding God’s election

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HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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I understand perfectly your point. You don't believe God is who He is.
You assume you view is correct and there are many, many who do not and their exegeting of scripture is far, far superior.

I think that right there is a fundamental flaw of "reformed theology" – always and only taking “one verse at a time,” losing sight of the overall message of the Bible and the overall truth of God’s character.

Any verse, taken alone, can be taken out of context and twisted to say almost whatever one wants. And in doing so, there is a failure to keep the message of the whole Bible consistent and in tact.

That is the truth of it and there are people working hard to undue the damage of this theology and I am thankful each time I read of someone's escape, the best news ever.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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You assume you view is correct and there are many, many who do not and their exegeting of scripture is far, far superior.

I think that right there is a fundamental flaw of "reformed theology" – always and only taking “one verse at a time,” losing sight of the overall message of the Bible and the overall truth of God’s character.

Any verse, taken alone, can be taken out of context and twisted to say almost whatever one wants. And in doing so, there is a failure to keep the message of the whole Bible consistent and in tact.

That is the truth of it and there are people working hard to undue the damage of this theology and I am thankful each time I read of someone's escape, the best news ever.
Appreciate the reply.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Not nearly as irresistible as the death grip you can't relinquish on your deafening silence re the last two chapters of Revelation. So...let me lay it out for you with a few key excerpts and brief commentary. Sit back and enjoy the lesson.

Rev 21:1
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

NIV

This must occur after your literal 1,000-year earthly kingdom ; for this latter kingdom was part of the old order of things, i.e. "the first heaven and first earth". And this is really problematic for you Dispens since Jesus clearly said that his kingdom is NOT of this old order -- "not of this world" (Jn 18:36). Conversely, the new creation that ushers in the visible, eternal kingdom marks the end of the old order (Rev 21:4) and the beginning of the new (Rev 21:5).

Rev 21:4; 22:3
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away"....Rev 22:3 No longer will there be any curse....
NIV


So...no more death, mourning, crying, pain or curse in the NEW ORDER, which means in the so-called earthly millennium, all these things would still exist, which further implies sin will still reign in this earthly millennium, since SIN is the cause of all these negative experiences. Sin is the cause of everything that is wrong in this world! (How ya doin' so far, Mr. Genez? Are ya hangin' in there, enjoying a real biblical lesson for a change? I hope so; I'm just getting warmed up.)

Rev 21:10-14
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates.
On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
NIV

I know, I know...You're going to try to tell me that the 12 "gates" and the 12 "apostles" still represent all Jewish messianic believers under the Old and New Covenant economies, right? What else can you say since given your false presuppositions as to the identity of the saints who will be dwelling in the new [world] order? But...stay tuned...

Rev 21:22-27
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
NIV

Oh my...Kings and nations will bring their glory and honor into the City? OR...are you going to try to con us into believing that the "kings" and "nations" consist of the nation of Israel and the nation of Judah? Or that the "Lamb's book of life" includes only Jewish believers? If the latter, you had better feast your eyes on Php 4:3 in which Paul told Gentile believers in Philippi that all his fellow workers, most of whom were Gentiles, have their names written in that book! Or for that matter, see what Jesus told His church at Sardis about the "book of life" (Rev 3:5). But if you're still not convinced, then consider the original audience of this book. Besides, I know you're a staunch believer in understanding things in their context, right? :rolleyes:

Rev 1:20; 22:16a
20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the
seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches...Rev 22:16a "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches..."
NIV

Not very likely that those seven churches consisted only of Jewish believers. Don't you agree?

My next question to you is this: Do you have the courage, humility and honesty in you to admit you are wrong about who will occupy the restored earth?
What you are missing to see?
And, I needed it pointed out, as well.
Is that there are TWO different new heavens and new earths....

One new heaven and new earth for the Millennium.
That one will be destroyed after the 1000 years are done.
Burned up in nuclear fusion, as Peter describes here:
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with
a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done
in it will be laid bare. 2 Peter 3:10​

The word "elements" refers the atomic elements of creation!
It is where we get the periodic table, seen in chemistry classes.

Then, that is finished. No more planet earth as originally created.
Nuclear fusion of the planets and universe. Gone!

Next will come an entirely new, new heaven and new earth, called the Home of Righteousness.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be?
You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed
it's coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the
elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise, we are looking forward
to a new heaven and a new earth, the Home of Righteousness. 2 Peter 3:11-13​



grace and peace ................
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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The corruption of man was done by man Himself.
Incorrect and totally illogical, you know man could never had the ability to design the effects of the fall.

Now you will live in cognitive dissonance because these cannot be reconciled, either God is sovereign or your view of fallen human nature is incorrect.

There are only two options!!
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Any verse, taken alone, can be taken out of context and twisted to say almost whatever one wants.
There are none good. You deny this.

Man is wicked. You deny this.

None seek after God. You deny this.

The natural man is a slave to sin. You deny this.

A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. You deny this.

Man's will is taken captive to the will of the devil. You deny this.

I could go on and on... but why bother? You would just deny it.
 
Dec 30, 2024
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Are you disregarding that a New Covenant is stated in Scripture. For those to be saved, the Old Covenant has been done away with.
This can be a learning moment for you too.

[Heb 8:10-11 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
I said the Old was a foreshadow of the New. You completely went off on a tangent unrelated to my post.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Incorrect and totally illogical, you know man could never had the ability to design the effects of the fall.

Now you will live in cognitive dissonance because these cannot be reconciled, either God is sovereign or your view of fallen human nature is incorrect.

There are only two options!!
Appreciate the reply.
My meaning was not that man is the source of the repercussions, but the cause of them being implemented.
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
 
Dec 30, 2024
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I intended to also include this verse which is a continuation of the verses in my prior reply to you but overlooked it. It is important
to also consider along with the other verses.

[Heb 8:12 KJV] 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The Old Saints were saved because they understood the reason behind sacrifice and the future sacrifice going to happen.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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My meaning was not that man is the source of the repercussions, but the cause of them being implemented.
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
You are understood just fine by those who do not have an agenda to deliberately twist what you say.

 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Here he his is assuming that God wasn't effectually working in her to do his will.
Calvinites aways fall back onto their "catch phrase" mirages, illusions and hocus pocus when they are in a tight spot.
Yes, they try to put on a good show, but they fail to anticipate their demise when Toto shows up and pulls back the curtain.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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I think the maintaining the language of double-speak is a challenge and that is what the so called "doctrines of grace" require.
I equate them to the money changers in the temple. Rather than altering the weight standard, they alter the word standard.

They use "cause" as their standard and try to level it out with the use of "permit" or "allow." Sneaky snakes....
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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I said the Old was a foreshadow of the New. You completely went off on a tangent unrelated to my post.
Well, the old was works based; the new, exclusively mercy and graced based - the antithesis of the old. How then is the old a foreshadowing of the new when they fundamentally contradict each other, especially since in your post you made mention of the work of choosing, given that no such choosing exists within the new?

Anyway, the important point is that you believe no works for salvation are either possible or permitted in the new, including choice - that it has all been done by God through Christ. Agreed?
 
Dec 16, 2016
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hi brother, you were wise to share how essential it is to not cherry pick a verse.
A teaching from a blessed brother encourages reading 7 verses before and after to get the meaning, context, etc.
bless you, friend.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,472
2,522
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I equate them to the money changers in the temple. Rather than altering the weight standard, they alter the word standard.

They use "cause" as their standard and try to level it out with the use of "permit" or "allow." Sneaky snakes....
Very true.

It is pretty much impossible to have a meaningful conversation, I think we can all see the moving of the goal post over and over again.