Understanding God’s election

[John146]

@John146



False the ones in Eph 2:1-3 are the same ones in Eph 1:4-5

RCC Calvin’s theology on display:

God
“I chose you to my son before the foundation of world. You are my son, but for now, you are dead in trespasses and sin, but shhhh, not really. You are an object of my wrath, but shhhh, not really, since you’re my son whom I chose before the foundation of the world.”

You can’t make this stuff up.🤦‍♂️

 

[Blain]

RCC Calvin’s theology on display:

God
“I chose you to my son before the foundation of world. You are my son, but for now, you are dead in trespasses and sin, but shhhh, not really. You are an object of my wrath, but shhhh, not really, since you’re my son whom I chose before the foundation of the world.”

You can’t make this stuff up.🤦‍♂️

that logic checks out it is like a back and forth between who we are to him either we were chosen or underneath that no we are vessels for wrath but no Jesus died for the sins of the world but wait no only the elect

is it just me or does this election thing kind of downgrade Christs sacrifice?

 

[Magenta]

I could search it up but I think an ex calvinist would be able to explain it better

That would be a mistake unless you want a lot of axe grinding.

I think we need to drop the whole calvinism thing accusing others of it and or otherwise labeling others I don't know who
here is a calvinist but we should not be name calling labeling or accusing of said doctrine because it never ends well

You expect the liars to care about the truth. Another mistake. You know, Blain, some come along and join in on conversations that have been going on for many months and they want to proclaim their impression of, nobody is misrepresenting others' beliefs, as if that were the truth when it is just another misrepresentation! When one guy did that, I gave him some examples of how despicably beliefs are misrepresented, but he refused to acknowledge any of what I said and turned it into a joke instead, a joke where I was the bad guy. Don't expect honesty from these people. They repeatedly tell us things like God is unfair, and acting unilaterally makes Him an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their will, making a hoax of repentance and salvation. Some of those that don't say things like that applaud those that do, and repeatedly deny what is plainly stated in Scripture, so they can hold to their idea that is was them with their stony heart and hostile-to-God mind who decided to believe what was foolishness to them with no intervention from God, because that would just be unfair of God. They ascribe to the natural man what is only possible of the spiritual man and claim verses about the natural man only apply to the spiritual man. The depth of their irrationality almost literally knows no bounds.

 

[Kroogz]

Well you sir have earned my respect you clearly know what your talking about I am kind of curious about this calvinism thing now if there is that many red flags maybe this needs to be investegated

It does need to be investigated like a Berean. Reformed/Calvinism theology is taking over many, many good Bible teaching churches(That's their MO...sneak into and take over otherwise solid Bible teaching churches.)

That's what is going on around my neck of the woods anyway. And after researching it.......Sounds like it is happening in many places.

 

[Rufus]

I asked Reverend Chat GPT about Judas.

Using the New Testament would you say that Judas was saved or not saved?

The question of whether Judas Iscariot was saved or not is a deeply theological one, and interpretations vary across Christian traditions and perspectives. The New Testament provides evidence that can support differing conclusions. Let’s look at key passages and themes:

Arguments Suggesting Judas Was Not Saved:

1. Jesus Calls Judas a "Devil" (John 6:70-71):
   • Jesus says, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." This implies a fundamental separation from God.
2. Betrayal as Fulfillment of Prophecy:
   • Judas is often linked to Old Testament prophecies about betrayal (e.g., Psalm 41:9), but his actions are seen as a willful choice to betray Jesus.
3. Jesus' Words About Judas (Matthew 26:24):
   • Jesus says, "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born," which strongly implies eternal consequences for Judas’s actions.
4. Judas' Death (Matthew 27:3-5, Acts 1:18-19):
   • Judas dies by suicide after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus. While he regrets his actions, there is no clear evidence in Scripture that he repents in a way leading to salvation.
5. Replacement of Judas (Acts 1:24-25):
   • When the apostles replace Judas, it is said he went to "his own place," a phrase often interpreted as implying judgment or separation from God.

Arguments Suggesting the Possibility of Salvation:

1. God's Grace and Mercy:
   • The New Testament emphasizes that salvation is through grace, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Some argue that Judas’s remorse (Matthew 27:3) might reflect an opportunity for grace.
2. Jesus’ Prayer on the Cross (Luke 23:34):
   • Jesus prays for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, which could be extended to Judas as part of the larger context of divine mercy.
3. God’s Sovereignty and Judas' Role:
   • Judas’s betrayal was part of God’s redemptive plan. Some argue that Judas was a necessary instrument in that plan, which could allow for mercy despite his actions.

Traditional Christian Interpretations:

• Catholic and Orthodox Views: These traditions generally see Judas as lost, based on the gravity of his betrayal and lack of evidence of genuine repentance.
• Protestant Views: Many Protestants also lean toward Judas being unsaved, emphasizing Jesus' statements and Judas's ultimate actions.
• Some Minority Views: A few Christian thinkers speculate about Judas’s salvation, focusing on God’s limitless grace and the possibility of posthumous reconciliation.

Conclusion:
The majority of Christian interpretations lean toward Judas not being saved, primarily due to Jesus’ strong statements about him and the lack of evidence of repentance leading to salvation. However, the ultimate judgment belongs to God, whose mercy and justice surpass human understanding.

"Speculation", you say? Now there something to build a solid theology behind. [Carnal] Speculation is in competition with God's revealed, eternal truth?

I would be interested to see that .. If you have such a list handy, that is...

It's not a big list, but it does reveal a lot about Judas. The four passages that I'm aware of are: Ps 41:9; 69:25; 109 ff.; Zech 11:12-13.

If you have trouble making sense out out Ps 109, give me a shout and I'll share what I see in the Psalm. The reason I say this is because the first 5 verses of this messianic psalm speak of David's enemies in the plural, e.g. "they" is used several times. But in v.6, David switches gears by talking of one man "opposing him". And of an "accuser [that is to] "stand his right hand" So, this might seem confusing to you at first blush. But we should remember that Peter in Acts 1:20 clearly alludes to v.8 in this Psalm when speaking about Judas. Therefore, unmistakably this is a messianic Psalm. And so for the balance of the Psalm David talks about this one man (presumably the appointed "evil man" in v.6a) and his cursed descendants, all that he owned, etc.

 

[Kroogz]

That would be a mistake unless you want a lot of axe grinding.
You expect the liars to care about the truth. Another mistake. You know, Blain, some come along and join in on conversations that have been going on for many months and they want to proclaim their impression of, nobody is misrepresenting others' beliefs, as if that were the truth when it is just another misrepresentation! When one guy did that, I gave him some examples of how despicably beliefs are misrepresented, but he refused to acknowledge any of what I said and turned it into a joke instead, a joke where I was the bad guy. Don't expect honesty from these people. They repeatedly tell us things like God is unfair, and acting unilaterally makes Him an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their will, making a hoax of repentance and salvation. Some of those that don't say things like that applaud those that do, and repeatedly deny what is plainly stated in Scripture, so they can hold to their idea that is was them with their stony heart and hostile-to-God mind who decided to believe what was foolishness to them with no intervention from God, because that would just be unfair of God. They ascribe to the natural man what is only possible of the spiritual man and claim verses about the natural man only apply to the spiritual man. The depth of their irrationality almost literally knows no bounds.

We can't be irrational. That would require a possibility of being rational.

We can't believe. That would require a possibility of believing.


See it?

 

[Magenta]

It's not a big list, but it does reveal a lot about Judas.

Thank you, I will have a boo a little later as I am just finishing up lunch at work...

 

[Blain]

That would be a mistake unless you want a lot of axe grinding.
You expect the liars to care about the truth. Another mistake. You know, Blain, some come along and join in on conversations that have been going on for many months and they want to proclaim their impression of, nobody is misrepresenting others' beliefs, as if that were the truth when it is just another misrepresentation! When one guy did that, I gave him some examples of how despicably beliefs are misrepresented, but he refused to acknowledge any of what I said and turned it into a joke instead, a joke where I was the bad guy. Don't expect honesty from these people. They repeatedly tell us things like God is unfair, and acting unilaterally makes Him an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their will, making a hoax of repentance and salvation. Some of those that don't say things like that applaud those that do, and repeatedly deny what is plainly stated in Scripture, so they can hold to their idea that is was them with their stony heart and hostile-to-God mind who decided to believe what was foolishness to them with no intervention from God, because that would just be unfair of God. They ascribe to the natural man what is only possible of the spiritual man and claim verses about the natural man only apply to the spiritual man. The depth of their irrationality almost literally knows no bounds.

Yeah I suppose I just like to give the benifet of the doubt but you are absolutely correct

 

[Rufus]

I accept you found yourself unable to answer my question.

God Bless.

I did. But you didn't answer mine.

 

[Blain]

It does need to be investigated like a Berean. Reformed/Calvinism theology is taking over many, many good Bible teaching churches(That's their MO...sneak into and take over otherwise solid Bible teaching churches.)

That's what is going on around my neck of the woods anyway. And after researching it.......Sounds like it is happening in many places.

so like a virus basically interesting......

 

[Blain]

I did. But you didn't answer mine.

I know that feeling I cannot get a straight answer from brightfame52 or at least not one that is biblical or even spiritual for that matter I just want a straight answer not this loop around thing going on

 

[Rufus]

It is implied by you (Calvinism) that mankind is absolutely depraved.

Since mankind is depraved, then no one can understand that Jesus could be the messiah.

A person cannot ponder Jesus unless they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, i.e., the elect.

Matthew 21:8-9
And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees,
and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna
to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Sure looks like the folk in Jerusalem were looking at their King (the Jewish messiah).

The text should say 'a remnant spread their garments'.

From whence come's mankind's source of "understanding"?

 

[Rufus]

Kroogz said:


It does need to be investigated like a Berean. Reformed/Calvinism theology is taking over many, many good Bible teaching churches(That's their MO...sneak into and take over otherwise solid Bible teaching churches.)

That's what is going on around my neck of the woods anyway. And after researching it.......Sounds like it is happening in many places.

What's taking over many "good" bible teaching churches is the genuine Gospel! How Kool is that?

 

[Rufus]

I don't abrogate Scripture so to manufacture a preferred ideology devoid then of The Spirit of Truth.
What you prefer to think is meaningless to what God taught in His word as The Word.

You are a blessing in that you are evidence God knows all things. And as such prepared His Saints for what may come.

Thank you.

Translate: You cannot refute the biblical evidence I provided.

I, too, think you are blessing in that you prove that all true spiritual understanding must come from the Eternal Source.

 

[Kroogz]

What's taking over many "good" bible teaching churches is the genuine Gospel! How Kool is that?

My Church~~ So Pastor, what must I do to be saved? God sent His Son to all. He died for you personally and for the sins of the whole world. Your sins are forgiven through His life, death and resurrection. And you can have eternal life by simply trusting in Him for your salvation.

Your "church".........Fill in the blank for us.

 

[Rufus]

No, I don't believe God made people simply to go to hell. God is a just God and that is not just.

"Not just", according to your way of thinking and doing things or God's way of thinking and his way of doing things?

 

[Rufus]

My Church~~ So Pastor, what must I do to be saved? God sent His Son to all. He died for you personally and for the sins of the whole world. Your sins are forgiven through His life, death and resurrection. And you can have eternal life by simply trusting in Him for your salvation.

Your "church".........Fill in the blank for us.

I can't fill in the blank because neither my pastor (or myself) would never tell anyone that Jesus died for the sins of each and every person in the world.

 

[Blain]

My Church~~ So Pastor, what must I do to be saved? God sent His Son to all. He died for you personally and for the sins of the whole world. Your sins are forgiven through His life, death and resurrection. And you can have eternal life by simply trusting in Him for your salvation.

Your "church".........Fill in the blank for us.

my church- wish I had one

 

[Blain]

I can't fill in the blank because neither my pastor (or myself) would never tell anyone that Jesus died for the sins of each and every person in the world.

eh? doesn't the scriptures say exactly that though?

• Timothy 4:10
  "Who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe"
  
  
• 1 John 2:2
  "And he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world"
  
  
• • 1 John 4:14
    "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world"
    
  • Revelation 5:9
    "You were slain, and by your blood your ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation"
    

 

[brightfame52]

that is fine and dandy but you made a claim and I made a claim your idea of truth doesn't matter what matters is what the word of God says don't forget this is a bible discussion forum so if you are going to make a claim but cannot back it up or for that matter disprove mine then I rest my case and I suppose if you cannot prove me wrong then that is that

I made a claim of that I see in scripture, not you. I dont need the catch word elect to see that its the elect, u do