Understanding God’s election

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I find this amusing.

Me too! But probably for a different reason.

 

[cv5]

what does it mean to be quickened? is that the same as being stirred or drawn to God?

Beware of drinking from the Calvinite punchbowl Blain. Lest you become doctrinally drunk.


The Pharisees thought they were born saved..................Proven wrong by Jesus Himself.
Calvinites think they are pre-born saved.................................Same heresy amped to the next level.

And what does the Final Authority say about this?

He says that you must be BORN ***AGAIN*** AFTER you were firstly born in sin.
Not PRE-SELECTED BEFORE you were born when there IS NO SIN.

IMO the pharisaical doctrine of being "born saved" and "saved by surgery" was the ultimate cause of the downfall of the nation.
They lost their salvation message mojo (that being ANYONE may enter the covenant of His Blood) and then they lost their commission and nation.

 

[HeIsHere]

Beware of drinking from the Calvinite punchbowl Blain. Lest you become doctrinally drunk.


The Pharisees thought they were born saved..................Proven wrong by Jesus Himself.
Calvinites think they are pre-born saved.................................Same heresy amped to the next level.

And what does the Final Authority say about this?

He says that you must be BORN ***AGAIN*** AFTER you were firstly born in sin.
Not PRE-SELECTED BEFORE you were born when there IS NO SIN.

IMO the pharisaical doctrine of being "born saved" and "saved by surgery" was the ultimate cause of the downfall of the nation.
They lost their salvation message mojo (that being ANYONE may enter the covenant of His Blood) and then they lost their commission and nation.

Thank you, this doctrine is so contrary to scripture... it really must appeal to the flesh that is the only explanation.

 

[HeIsHere]

Why are you avoiding the passage in Ephesians 2? And going out of your way not to have to deal with what is written, and the implications of it?

Verses 1-3 are clearly descriptive of unbelievers. And it clearly states in verse 5 that in this estate, God quickens them with Christ. Why is that so hard to admit?

There is nothing to admit, read in context and make sure all scripture is taken into account not just proof texts here and there.

Yes God “made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions” (Eph 2:5‬ ), it is equally true that “you were also raised with him *through your faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.”
‭‭(Col 2:12)


But Scriptures clearly teach, and Paul confirms in vss 8-9 in this context, that salvation grace goes through faith.

1)Light (the Gospel from outside oneself) then 2) faith then 3) life.

This clause is still true if it reads - "when we were living in death [and when He gave us the light of the gospel which we put our trust in] He made us alive."

Please follow correct ordo salutis and adhere to biblical teaching.

 

[rogerg]

Yes God “made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions” (Eph 2:5‬ ), it is equally true that “you were also raised with him *through your faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.”
‭‭(Col 2:12)

Nope. The version you used (probably the NIV) added the word "your" to the verse. It is not in the actual text. The faith of that verse is NOT the faith of those whom Paul was addressing; it is the faith that exists within the working of God, which faith, is the faith of Christ - His faith brought salvation. We cannot be saved by anything we may do, including by our faith. Christ is the Savior, man is not.
It this case, I believe the KJV states it more correctly. Notice there is no "your" in the verse; notice also that faith is singular : "the faith", not plural, meaning there is only one faith pertaining to the operation of God (or "working of God" per the NIV) and salvation. Given that there is only one, it therefore cannot be referring to the faith of those being addressed, which would then have to be plural.

[Col 2:12 KJV] 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Cameron143]

There is nothing to admit, read in context and make sure all scripture is taken into account not just proof texts here and there.

Yes God “made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions” (Eph 2:5‬ ), it is equally true that “you were also raised with him *through your faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.”
‭‭(Col 2:12)


But Scriptures clearly teach, and Paul confirms in vss 8-9 in this context, that salvation grace goes through faith.

1)Light (the Gospel from outside oneself) then 2) faith then 3) life.

This clause is still true if it reads - "when we were living in death [and when He gave us the light of the gospel which we put our trust in] He made us alive."

Please follow correct ordo salutis and adhere to biblical teaching.

So...
God through the Apostle teaches that He quickens unbelievers together with Christ, and unbelievers are those who do not have faith in Christ, but this doesn't mean the quickening precedes faith?

And you believe I'm not handling scripture properly? Hmmmmm.

 

[HeIsHere]

caricatures of the Doctrines of Grace.

Oh yes, how dare anyone reveal what lies at the heart of these "doctrines of grace."

How else to provide cover for what is truly that final picture of Dorian Gray by pretending that the original portrait is the truth, I mean

we have people like John Gill and R. C. Sproul who add layers and layers of intellectual babble and reams of explanations of high

sounding prose extolling this sovereign controlling "caricature" of god.

Rest assured many of us of read these writers and when one sees past all their sophisticated high level rherotic one wonders have they really understood God at all?

 

[HeIsHere]

So...
God through the Apostle teaches that He quickens unbelievers together with Christ, and unbelievers are those who do not have faith in Christ, but this doesn't mean the quickening precedes faith?

And you believe I'm not handling scripture properly? Hmmmmm.

What scripture are you referencing?

 

[Cameron143]

What scripture are you referencing?

Ephesians 2.

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

Me too! But probably for a different reason.

May I ask what your reason is?

 

[cv5]

Thank you, this doctrine is so contrary to scripture... it really must appeal to the flesh that is the only explanation.

Its nothing more than a massive truckload of Greek pseudo-intellectual pseudo-philosophical crowing IMO.
A thought experiment that spiraled out of control and then boosted into orbit by an endless series of commentators trying to prove their worth and make their mark.

All of it deriving from the fallen mind IMO.
And utterly unbiblical on every level.

And tell me I'm wrong, but the worst of the hard-core Calvinites quote these very commentators as if it was gospel.
As if they were the words of the Lord Himself.

Brutal. Glad its not me.

 

[rogerg]

Its nothing more than a massive truckload of Greek pseudo-intellectual pseudo-philosophical crowing IMO.
A thought experiment that spiraled out of control and then boosted into orbit by an endless series of commentators trying to prove their worth and make their mark.

All of it deriving from the fallen mind IMO.
And utterly unbiblical on every level.

So, what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that salvation isn't solely by God's mercy and grace through Jesus Christ?
If that actually is your point, then what else remains? Our works?

 

[cv5]

There is nothing to admit, read in context and make sure all scripture is taken into account not just proof texts here and there.

To the Calvinites, the Bible is actually a game of scrabble and they can rearrange and reconfigure anything to say whatever they want.

 

[cv5]

So, what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that salvation isn't solely by God's mercy and grace through Jesus Christ?
If that actually is your point, then what else remains? Our works?

Well, you don't know what I am saying. Never have. This is bad.

But what's worse, you don't know what YOU are saying either.

Bummer.

 

[rogerg]

Well, you don't know what I am saying. Never have. This is bad.

But what's worse, you don't know what YOU are saying either.

Bummer.

It actually sounds like you don't know what you're saying, or don't know your answer. My question was
a simple one with only two options. Pick one.

 

[Kroogz]

Its nothing more than a massive truckload of Greek pseudo-intellectual pseudo-philosophical crowing IMO.
A thought experiment that spiraled out of control and then boosted into orbit by an endless series of commentators trying to prove their worth and make their mark.

All of it deriving from the fallen mind IMO.
And utterly unbiblical on every level.

And tell me I'm wrong, but the worst of the hard-core Calvinites quote these very commentators as if it was gospel.
As if they were the words of the Lord Himself.

Brutal. Glad its not me.

It's like oil and water. His Gospel will never mix with any part of the tulip. There will never be unity in this area.......no amount of tears will fix this problem.


1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

A doctrinally sound church will lose many people.

 

[HeIsHere]

To the Calvinites, the Bible is actually a game of scrabble and they can rearrange and reconfigure anything to say whatever they want.

That is probably why there is no point reasoning with them at all...... and on top of that their handling of scripture always has this

presumptive lens applied, I mean seriously no where is regeneration/quickening/enlightenment before faith in scripture ever!!

But if R. S. Sproul says so I guess it must be true. sigh!

I agree this is a type of prosperity gospel....

"I am one of the selected" sorry you did not make the cut maybe if you pray and pray you may become aware you have been selected too!

 

[Magenta]

one wonders have they really understood God at all?

While you have have often told us how unfair you believe God to be.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's like oil and water. His Gospel will never mix with any part of the tulip. There will never be unity in this area.......no amount of tears will fix this problem.

It is outside of what the bible reveals about God and what the Bible teaches about salvation, agree.

 

[Magenta]

no where is regeneration/quickening/enlightenment before faith in scripture ever!!

This is why it is concluded that you believe you raised yourself from death.

Yes, with your stony heart where the Seed of God's Word could not take root [with the heart one believes], and with your inherent hostility to God, being the bad tree incapable of producing good fruit that you were (this is of course assuming you are actually saved), while unable to know, understand, or even receive the Spiritual things of God, and not even seeking God, being a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness... in that condition, with uncircumcised ears and an uncircumcised heart you decided, by the sheer force of your will out of the goodness of your heart, to make the "moral decision" to believe in God.