Understanding God’s election
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No? The Bible is replete with that doctrine. Below just one example. According to you, a person's faith comes as a result of their knowledge. But, per the verse below, one must first become saved (the remission of their sins), for them to even have knowledge of salvation in order to have faith. This means salvation must precede faith, and that given only to "his people".
[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
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I would agree that for many the idea of the trinity may not jump off the pages at them. I believe but I can see why many do see it right away. On the other hand I think there are so many verses that are against the most bothersome or honestly most frightening belief of the Calvin/Reform dogma. The whole idea that God not only hates a group of people but will send them to hell through not fault of their own, to me is beyond illogical but more importantly, mocks the character and heart of God.
The false idea that the genitive case (“of”) in Colossians 2:12 must mean that the working of God is the source of faith is simply an instance of Calvinist propaganda once again like they do with Ephesians 2:8.
In all of the other cases where the genitive case follows the noun “faith” in Paul’s writings, the object of the faith is meant.
This means that Colossians 2:12, where “faith (of) the working of God,” following the consistent pattern everywhere else, must mean “faith IN the working of God.”
If faith has an object that means it is something man is exercising IN an object the object being Christ Jesus.
This cannot precede regeneration.
In all of the other cases where the genitive case follows the noun “faith” in Paul’s writings, the object of the faith is meant.
This means that Colossians 2:12, where “faith (of) the working of God,” following the consistent pattern everywhere else, must mean “faith IN the working of God.”
If faith has an object that means it is something man is exercising IN an object the object being Christ Jesus.
This cannot precede regeneration.
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Ephesians 4:17-18; Luke 6:43; Jeremiah 10:14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.
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Really.
This is what happens when you put a "but" after God is Love.
What is Paul stating here if you read it from the right lens, he is not stating regeneration precedes faith at all, he is actually
focusing is on God’s love towards us, even in our deadened state ...He made a way for the correction of that state.
And the way of correction is stated very clearly in verse 8..... yes through faith, Christ Jesus being the object of one's faith!
There is no “pre-life life.” Speculation about a faith-induced consequence of “life before birth” is simply not in harmony with other scriptures for regeneration.
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
This is what happens when you put a "but" after God is Love.
What is Paul stating here if you read it from the right lens, he is not stating regeneration precedes faith at all, he is actually
focusing is on God’s love towards us, even in our deadened state ...He made a way for the correction of that state.
And the way of correction is stated very clearly in verse 8..... yes through faith, Christ Jesus being the object of one's faith!
There is no “pre-life life.” Speculation about a faith-induced consequence of “life before birth” is simply not in harmony with other scriptures for regeneration.
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
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Wrong. Yeah, I know how the genitive works. However, the use of "of" is proven by the faith in Co 2:12 being in the singular. Therefore, faith must be germane only to (of) the operation (working) of God, not being the individual faith of all those whom Paul was addressing. I'll try this again- man cannot save himself by his faith nor by anything else he may do no matter what. That is why Christ has the title of Savior and man does not. Maybe your problem is that you don't believe that Christ is the Savior - now that I think about it, that would explain a lot about you.
Eph 2, as I believe @Cameron143 was trying to explain, fundamentally clarifies the meaning of Col 2:12. I used the NIV in both cases below to demonstrate to you that the NIV contradicts itself. Eph 2:6 clearly states that it was God who raised them up: NOT that they were raised up by their faith as Col 2:12 states, so there is inconsistency between the two. There is nothing whatsoever, mentioned in Eph 2: 4 -6 that alludes to their faith.
Do you see in the NIV EPH 2:6 it says "God raised us up" but in NIV Col 2:12 that "you were raised up with him
through your faith"? Both cannot be correct. And don't say that God raised them up because of their faith, because if He
did, then they would have been raised because of themselves, not God, with God just being a mechanism by which He finished
what they, not He, achieved.
[Eph 2:4-6 NIV]
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
[Col 2:12 NIV]
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
The KJV is not inconsistent - in both sets of verses, God does it all.
[Eph 2:4-6 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[Col 2:12 KJV]
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Eph 2, as I believe @Cameron143 was trying to explain, fundamentally clarifies the meaning of Col 2:12. I used the NIV in both cases below to demonstrate to you that the NIV contradicts itself. Eph 2:6 clearly states that it was God who raised them up: NOT that they were raised up by their faith as Col 2:12 states, so there is inconsistency between the two. There is nothing whatsoever, mentioned in Eph 2: 4 -6 that alludes to their faith.
Do you see in the NIV EPH 2:6 it says "God raised us up" but in NIV Col 2:12 that "you were raised up with him
through your faith"? Both cannot be correct. And don't say that God raised them up because of their faith, because if He
did, then they would have been raised because of themselves, not God, with God just being a mechanism by which He finished
what they, not He, achieved.
[Eph 2:4-6 NIV]
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
[Col 2:12 NIV]
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
The KJV is not inconsistent - in both sets of verses, God does it all.
[Eph 2:4-6 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[Col 2:12 KJV]
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
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Wrong. Yeah, I know how the genitive works. However, the use of "of" is proven by the faith in Co 2:12 being in the singular. Therefore, faith must be germane only to (of) the operation (working) of God, not being the individual faith of all those whom Paul was addressing. I'll try this again- man cannot save himself by his faith nor by anything else he may do no matter what. That is why Christ has the title of Savior and man does not. Maybe your problem is that you don't believe that Christ is the Savior - now that I think about it, that would explain a lot about you.
Eph 2, as I believe Cameron was trying to explain, fundamentally clarifies the meaning of Col 2:12. I used the NIV in both cases below to demonstrate to you that the NIV contradicts itself. Eph 2:6 clearly states that it was God who raised them up: NOT that they were raised up by their faith as Col 2:12 states, so there is inconsistency between the two. There is nothing whatsoever, mentioned in Eph 2: 4 -6 that alludes to their faith.
Do you see in the NIV EPH 2:6 it says "God raised us up" but in NIV Col 2:12 that "you were raised up with him
through your faith"? Both cannot be correct. And don't say that God raised them up because of their faith, because if He
did, then they would have been raised because of themselves, not God, with God just being a mechanism by which He finished
what they, not He, achieved.
[Eph 2:4-6 NIV]
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
[Col 2:12 NIV]
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
The KJV is not inconsistent - in both sets of verses, God does it all.
[Eph 2:4-6 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[Col 2:12 KJV]
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Eph 2, as I believe Cameron was trying to explain, fundamentally clarifies the meaning of Col 2:12. I used the NIV in both cases below to demonstrate to you that the NIV contradicts itself. Eph 2:6 clearly states that it was God who raised them up: NOT that they were raised up by their faith as Col 2:12 states, so there is inconsistency between the two. There is nothing whatsoever, mentioned in Eph 2: 4 -6 that alludes to their faith.
Do you see in the NIV EPH 2:6 it says "God raised us up" but in NIV Col 2:12 that "you were raised up with him
through your faith"? Both cannot be correct. And don't say that God raised them up because of their faith, because if He
did, then they would have been raised because of themselves, not God, with God just being a mechanism by which He finished
what they, not He, achieved.
[Eph 2:4-6 NIV]
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
[Col 2:12 NIV]
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
The KJV is not inconsistent - in both sets of verses, God does it all.
[Eph 2:4-6 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[Col 2:12 KJV]
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
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Well @Kroogz now I know why you repeated
30. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Their answer is wait for special selected quickening because you cannot believe.
Thankfully this is the truth and can it be more clear? Was he lying when he stated this, did he forget to mention it will be foolishness to you?
31. They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
30. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Their answer is wait for special selected quickening because you cannot believe.
Thankfully this is the truth and can it be more clear? Was he lying when he stated this, did he forget to mention it will be foolishness to you?
31. They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
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You are just like @Inquisitor. You don't deal with the passage and the clear meaning of it. You say...look over here. Nothing to see over there. The passage clearly shows that God gives life together with Christ to unbelievers. Regeneration proceeding faith.
You don't have to accept it, but to say the Bible doesn't say it is false.
You don't have to accept it, but to say the Bible doesn't say it is false.
Yeah, the faith that is IN Christ's blood. Not that the faith is towards Christ.
[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[Mat 26:28 KJV] 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
As with 2 Co 2:12, the "your" is not actually in the verse. The verse is actually saying that they did not deny that
CHRIST WAS FAITHFUL, not that they were faithful. Look at it in the KJV. The "my" of the "my faith" IS in the verse
[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[Mat 26:28 KJV] 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
As with 2 Co 2:12, the "your" is not actually in the verse. The verse is actually saying that they did not deny that
CHRIST WAS FAITHFUL, not that they were faithful. Look at it in the KJV. The "my" of the "my faith" IS in the verse
[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
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Ordo salutis according to scripture over and over again!
1) Faith/Belief placed in Christ Jesus based on life giving message of the Gospel for those who have ears to hear (not an internal supernatural gnosis)
Then
2) regenerated, changed heart, spiritual quickening, redeemed, justified, positionally sanctified
Faith cannot be the antecedent of "that" (Ephesians 2:8)
There is no debate here.
End of story.
1) Faith/Belief placed in Christ Jesus based on life giving message of the Gospel for those who have ears to hear (not an internal supernatural gnosis)
Then
2) regenerated, changed heart, spiritual quickening, redeemed, justified, positionally sanctified
Faith cannot be the antecedent of "that" (Ephesians 2:8)
There is no debate here.
End of story.