Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

If I correctly understand your point, Rufus, I would respectfully disagree and suggest it is reconciled only by becoming born-again. God places His laws (the law of life through Christ) into the heart and minds (NC) of those He saves, making their will (although not always perfectly executed) a reflection of His will in all things pertaining to salvation. Consequently, when someone truly and positively responds to the gospel, it is only because they had already become saved, but that response played no part in the obtaining of salvation.

What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

 

[Rufus]

If I correctly understand your point, Rufus, I would respectfully disagree and suggest it is reconciled only by becoming born-again. God places His laws (the law of life through Christ) into the heart and minds (NC) of those He saves, making their will (although not always perfectly executed) a reflection of His will in all things pertaining to salvation. Consequently, when someone truly and positively responds to the gospel,

I agree! But at the same time, we are free moral agents (not to be confused or conflated with "freewill" nonsense). God doesn't do the repenting and believing for us. WE do that! Granted, we do that by his grace -- by his enabling power. But even so we do that -- and we do it WILLINGLY! I don't know of any Christian who believes God "forced" or "coerced" or "conned" him into the Kingdom. We were all made willing in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). None us entered the kingdom against our will! When the time for the new birth arrived at God's sovereign discretion, we were made willing. We are not machines, or robots or AI devices, etc. None of these things have feelings, emotions, consciences or a conscious existence. Machines do not possess human faculties which is what makes us God's image-bearers. And all our faculties together play critical roles in the choices we make! The will does not say to the conscience, "I don''t need you". Or the will say to our affections, "Don't intrude on my turf", etc.

This is the difference between me and hyper-Calvinists who seem to believe that the will of God's elect image-bearers played no part in their salvation. I, see God as the indispensable Primary Cause (Mover) in man's salvation, and man himself as the willing respondent by God's grace. God actually "changes our mind" about who we thought he was, who we thought we were, what we thought we needed to do to please Him, what we thought our eternal destination was, etc., etc. -- all of this and more by his irresistible grace! And once a true change has taken place within one's soul, that person will respond accordingly.

As far as the flip side of the coin goes, the very same principle applies to all who were appointed in eternity to remain as a lump of clay suitable only for ignoble use. The damned who were never destined for eternal life have actually chosen their own eternal fate! God's will for them and their own personal spiritual choices throughout their life are also 100% in sync! No one is ever condemned to hell who truly desired to be in heaven with their one and only True Creator! IOW, no one is ever sent to hell against their will! (And this fact alone demolishes another favorite FW straw man objection of Determinism.) All the condemned freely choose to rebel against God, break his laws, love the world and everything in it, etc., etc. Most importantly, everyone sees and recognizes that the world is badly broken -- except for themselves! People naturally refuse to see themselves as being every bit as much of the problem as their fellow man is who they are so quick to criticize and condemn. But when they condemn others, they unwittingly condemn themselves, as they do not and indeed cannot see themselves as being in the same lump of clay they so often condemn! Inordinate SELF love prohibits them! Therefore, God is not unjust by not graciously opening the eyes to their hearts and souls to see the gospel truth, since He owes his grace to no one. He's not unjust to leave them in their reprobate condition -- a condition of darkness which they love, by the way, because their deeds are evil!

I hope I've made my position clearer.

 

[Rufus]

What about Mary? Didnt jesus bear her flawed human nature as well being a child of Adam.

“but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Adam did not come into existence with a sinful nature -- yet, he still sinned.”

exactly the difference is when Adam was tempted he followed the temptation and then sinned and became a sinner . he didn’t become incapable of doing good but now they knew both good and evil and became conflicted between them .

jesus came as a man born of flesh and blood like we are and when he was tempted he did not sin he did not follow satans words but Gods words through life.

“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

we don’t die because Adam sinned , death came into the world because Adam broke the commandment war I g him about death . He died because he sinned . we die because like Adam we follow temptation and sin ourselves like he did.

Jesus became a son of man and subjected himself to flesh and blood and temptations that come with the flesh . Yet., he never sinned even being born under the law of Moses which defines sin , he never sinned. even when obedience took him to the suffering of the cross. He never sinned. But human nature he took upon himself so we could be redeemed to his image and live

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

he became a real man flesh and blood and faced all the same plight we do same temptations of his flesh but he never sinned he was without sin

He won a great victory it wasn’t just handed to him he suffered and bled and died for it he knows everything we face and all the struggle of our flesh against our spirit

became flesh and overcame it by the spirit thisnis what makes Jesus the man different from Adam Adam didn’t overcome temptation he followed it and let sin rule him . Jesus when tempted remained with Gods word and Satan never broke him

So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned? Or asked differently: Did the Last Adam also have the same capacity or capability to sin as the First Adam did?

 

[rogerg]

What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Sorry Magenta, I'm not sure I am entirely following your point (my fault) but if you're referring to the part of my comment
regarding law, the law that I was referring to was the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, no other law.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Rufus]

What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Exactly right, sister! And this is what makes man morally culpable at the end of the day. Men actually do possess the knowledge of Good and Evil! But mankind naturally does not want to biblically deal with this knowledge because it applies to themselves and not to just others.

 

[rogerg]

I agree! But at the same time, we are free moral agents (not to be confused or conflated with "freewill" nonsense). God doesn't do the repenting and believing for us. WE do that! Granted, we do that by his grace -- by his enabling power. But even so we do that -- and we do it WILLINGLY! I don't know of any Christian who believes God "forced" or "coerced" or "conned" him into the Kingdom. We were all made willing in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). None us entered the kingdom against our will! When the time for the new birth arrived at God's sovereign discretion, we were made willing. We are not machines, or robots or AI devices, etc. None of these things have feelings, emotions, consciences or a conscious existence. Machines do not possess human faculties which is what makes us God's image-bearers. And all our faculties together play critical roles in the choices we make! The will does not say to the conscience, "I don''t need you". Or the will say to our affections, "Don't intrude on my turf", etc.

Okay but doesn't God, not just enable us, but fundamentally change us and our perceptions so that no other conclusion is possible
nor feasible for us other than what the gospel conveys as its tenets of salvation? We are informed that for those whom God saves, He gives unto them a new spirit, a new heart, a renewed mind, writes into them His law (the law of Christ), and indwells within them with His Holy Spirit, so that they will/must follow/adhere unto His doctrine. If that is so, then isn't God, in effect, actually controlling outcome so that those doctrines become manifested and revealed in us, and must not He therefore have placed them (within us) beforehand to produce the effect He had decreed for us?

Regarding our repentance and belief, I think they are granted as gifts to us which He places into our hearts, by which,
we then act upon and manifest them. Please observe in the following verse that our belief comes directly to us from Christ's faith - it is not of ourselves.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In the following verse we are told that any faith we might self- produce, is, and must be, of/from the law, and not of Christ.
The only faith/belief not of law is one given to us solely as a gift through Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Regarding repentance, I believe that too a gift from God.

[Act 11:18 KJV]
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Please don't misunderstand me, I do not mean to imply that our beliefs are very different from each other's at all - merely just a question of degree.

 

[Rufus]

Okay but doesn't God, not just enable us, but fundamentally change us and our perceptions so that no other conclusion is possible
or feasible for us other than what the gospel conveys as its tenets of salvation? We are informed that for those whom God saves, He gives unto them a new spirit, a new heart, a renewed mind, writes into them His law (the law of Christ), and indwells within them with His Holy Spirit, so that they will/must follow/adhere unto His doctrine. If that is so, then isn't God, in effect, actually controlling outcome so that those doctrines become manifested and revealed in us, and must not He therefore have placed them (within us) beforehand to produce the effect He had decreed for us?

Regarding our repentance and belief, I think they are granted as gifts to us which He places into our hearts, by which,
we then act upon and manifest them. Please observe in the following verse that our belief comes directly to us from Christ's faith - it is not of ourselves.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In the following verse we are told that any faith we might self- produce, is, and must be, of/from the law, and not of Christ.
The only faith/belief not of law is one given to us solely as a gift through Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Regarding repentance, I believe that too a gift from God.

[Act 11:18 KJV]
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Please don't misunderstand me, I do not mean to imply that our beliefs are very different from each other's at all - merely just a question of degree.

Absolutely! God is 100% in control of his universe and everything in it. As stated in my previous post, God is the Primary Mover (Cause) of our salvation. And His perfect will is never dependent upon any of his fallen creatures' will. In fact, all the changes you mention above are critically necessary to our salvation. God doesn't just renew man's corrupt will, He gives all his elect a heart transplant, meaning he has changed all our faculties that drive the will!