Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

2 Thessalonians 2:10b-14a ~ Those who are perishing refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness. But we always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth, to which He called you through our gospel.[/COLOR]

 

[GWH]

So you ignoring what the scripture said about Seth ! You elevate your logic over scripture correct ?

Sc

Wow! You have quite a god! He/It effectually enables many to believe and many others not to believe! Your god works at cross-purposes with himself. He is as conflicted as sinners themselves are! Your god's promises are both "yes" and "no"!

No, the one God wants people who able to love, not be programmed to act loving, so He enables moral free will, which some exercise to become elect while foolish souls choose to ignore GW. YOU are the one conflicted by this truth!

 

[Rufus]

I see that what was posted on another thread is relevant to your third question:

"Why would God create/make someone if He already knows they are going to choose to be evil and go to hell?"

Because He did not want the foolishness of some souls who choose a just hell and then eternal destruction to prevent the eternal joy of those who choose to be righteous in Christ and go to heaven.

Why? So that God would be eternally glorified in his Justice by giving sinners what they rightly deserve; and He will likewise be equally as glorified in the undeserved mercy he has given to his elect.

 

[GWH]

So you ignoring what the scripture said about Seth ! You elevate your logic over scripture correct ?

No, I am elevating my logical understanding (because Adam & Eve were created in the image of God, then all of their descendants share that spiritual trait) over your misinterpretation of "Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth", because you fail to cite Scripture clearly denying my understanding.

 

[Rufus]

Sc


No, the one God wants people who able to love, not be programmed to act loving, so He enables moral free will, which some exercise to become elect while foolish souls choose to ignore GW. YOU are the one conflicted by this truth!

You certainly will not enjoy heaven or the new earth. Don't you know that there will be no sin in the new eternal order, which must mean that when the saints received their glorified they will be "reprogrammed" to not sin? The New Eternal Order will be totally sin-free -- and that NOT of man's choice!

But even if God did transform his elect by "programming" them "to act loving" in the day he makes them willing by his power, would this gracious act not be infinitely more beneficial to his elect than the alternative of spending eternity in the lake of fire if he had left them alone to their own evil devices?

 

[Magenta]

No, the one God wants people who able to love, not be programmed to act loving, so He enables moral free will, which
some exercise to become elect while foolish souls choose to ignore GW. YOU are the one conflicted by this truth!

You remind me of another poster who used to claim that people elected themselves.

They were so confused on this issue that they would claim it, then deny they said it, then claim it again. And again.

It was a bit of a not so merry-go-round with them. Like others of your ilk.

 

[studier]

But my question to you was: Do you see fallen man's [corrupt] will and his innate inability to come to Christ [in faith] as the Father's spiritual fix for unwillingness to believe, since all he has given to Christ will effectually be drawn to him and come to him?

Again, I'm sticking to questions re: specific Scripture in John5-6 for now.

It looks to me like Jesus has been in ministry for about a year and a half by the time we're in John5 and that He's done 15-20 recorded signs by then and has been in many debates and more. His Messianic claims were thus well-known.

John of course tells us that the [7] GJohn recorded signs Jesus did - including the ones in John5 & 6 were written for a purpose, so men could believe Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and have life in His name.

It seems clear even at my currently focused reading that according to John these signs our Father had Jesus doing in person plus the teaching and debating Jesus was doing saying what He heard our Father say was sufficient per God to draw/enable men to come toward Jesus + persuade the Jews to believe Jesus is God's Messiah King.

 

[Magenta]

John 12:38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”

 

[Magenta]

Isaiah 6:9-10, Luke 8:10, (Matthew 13:14-15, Mark 4:12, Romans 11:8, John 12:39-40, Acts 28:26-27, Ezekiel 12:2,Jeremiah 5:21, Deuteronomy 29:4, Psalm 115:4-8, Psalm 135:15-18) ~ The voice of the Lord said: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

 

[Rufus]

Can any unbeliever truly and genuinely give his wife a bunch of flowers apart from God-given, God-enabled body-movements?

Can any unbeliever truly and genuinely say "I love you", to his wife apart from God-given, God-enabled speech?

Of course he can. Even the wicked know how to do good on the horizontal plane (Mat 5:46; Lk 6:32).

Can any unbeliever truly and genuinely murder his wife apart from God-given, God-enabled faculties?

Everything anyone does is through God-given and God enabled faculties.

You're assuming God enables people to do evil! Did God enable Judas to betray his Son? Or did God remove his gracious restraints on Judas' evil thoughts and intentions of his heart (home of his faculties) to accomplish his perfect will? God is not morally culpable whenever he gives anyone over to their naturally acquired reprobate mind, since he owes his Grace to no one!

However, there is no logic in assuming that only doing good things uses God-given and God enabled faculties, but doing evil does not require or use the very same God-given and God-enabled faculties as were involved in doing good.

But there is a difference. In the doing of good, God is gracious to the elect by empowering them positively to turn from evil in order to do genuine good which ultimately involves bringing glory to Him; whereas in the doing of evil, God judicially removes his undeserved restraining grace from the wicked so that they can commit the evil they naturally love and are always prone to do.

 

[GWH]

You certainly will not enjoy heaven or the new earth. Don't you know that there will be no sin in the new eternal order, which must mean that when the saints received their glorified they will be "reprogrammed" to not sin? The New Eternal Order will be totally sin-free -- and that NOT of man's choice!

But even if God did transform his elect by "programming" them "to act loving" in the day he makes them willing by his power, would this gracious act not be infinitely more beneficial to his elect than the alternative of spending eternity in the lake of fire if he had left them alone to their own evil devices?

Aah. I see that your reluctance to affirm MFW is because you do not think hell is just (I didn't either until I figured it out by sewing Scripture together/God gave me insight), so here is an explanation of how it is just.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Because perfect justice is not attained during this earthly existence, there is a resurrection and judgment (HB 9:27-28), when those who serve the Spirit of love (although imperfectly, PHP 3:12) are separated from demonic souls who do not even want to try to cooperate with the Holy Spirit (MT 25:31-46). Otherwise, there would be no ultimate justice and the entire biblical revelation would make no sense (1CR 15:14&19). If atheists/evil-doers remained unconscious after death, such ignorance would be relative bliss and morality would be nullified (ECC 2:12-17). Thus, hell (as a potential destiny) as well as heaven is good (part of the Duo of Desirables)!

The horror of self-condemnation for serving Satan is this: apparently the misery of hell does not motivate genuine repentance. Thus, God abandons people assigned to hell or second death (RV 20:6, RM 1:28-32), because they are hopelessly corrupt (JN 6:44). This destiny is eternal for anyone whose sins are infinite. For the rest, after justice is achieved, hell will end in destruction or non-existence per the following passages:

JN 17:12, “None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”

RM 9:22, “What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?”

GL 6:8a, “Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction.”

PHP 3:19a, “Their destiny is destruction.”

2THS 1:9a, “They will be punished with everlasting destruction.”

2PT 3:7, “By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”

 

[Rufus]

I think that any man drawn by the Father will definitely be raised on the last day, since "I will raise Him up" is future indicative tense. But I also believe all men will be raised up at the last day: the righteous at the beginning of the last 1000 years, and the condemned at the end of the last 1000 years - a day with the Lord being as 1000 years. And the universe (All things) will also be destroyed and raised up/recreated, at the end of the last 1000 years.

The reason it required the Father to draw men to Jesus was IMO because Jesus, without the Father working through Him to say and do remarkable things, was without form of comeliness that anyone would desire Him. It was the controversial deeds and words of Jesus fiven Him by the Father that attracted people's attention and drew them to come and watch and listen more attentively to Him.

I think this drawing process changed after the death and resurrection of Messiah, and Jesus began to draw people to Himself by working miracles and speaking through His church. "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to Myself."

In the extant manuscripts there is no Gr. term in Jn 12:32 for "men". I have pointed this fact out numerous times already but no FWer CAN listen and understand. Funny how that works in the real world, isn't it?

 

[studier]

And Studier's question to me did not presuppose that his own position is true?

Let's play a game of 'find the presupposition' in the following:

Sticking with GJohn vs. interpretive traditions, do you see a man's will involved in coming to Jesus? FWIW, this is a decent translation and "not willing" is the same word typically found in the Text to speak of the will of God and of men.

NKJ John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[Rufus]

Aah. I see that your reluctance to affirm MFW is because you do not think hell is just (I didn't either until I figured it out by sewing Scripture together/God gave me insight), so here is an explanation of how it is just.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Because perfect justice is not attained during this earthly existence, there is a resurrection and judgment (HB 9:27-28), when those who serve the Spirit of love (although imperfectly, PHP 3:12) are separated from demonic souls who do not even want to try to cooperate with the Holy Spirit (MT 25:31-46). Otherwise, there would be no ultimate justice and the entire biblical revelation would make no sense (1CR 15:14&19). If atheists/evil-doers remained unconscious after death, such ignorance would be relative bliss and morality would be nullified (ECC 2:12-17). Thus, hell (as a potential destiny) as well as heaven is good (part of the Duo of Desirables)!

The horror of self-condemnation for serving Satan is this: apparently the misery of hell does not motivate genuine repentance. Thus, God abandons people assigned to hell or second death (RV 20:6, RM 1:28-32), because they are hopelessly corrupt (JN 6:44). This destiny is eternal for anyone whose sins are infinite. For the rest, after justice is achieved, hell will end in destruction or non-existence per the following passages:

JN 17:12, “None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”

RM 9:22, “What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?”

GL 6:8a, “Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction.”

PHP 3:19a, “Their destiny is destruction.”

2THS 1:9a, “They will be punished with everlasting destruction.”

2PT 3:7, “By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”

You put words into mouth. Hell is a just punishment for the wicked, since they, as free moral agents, chose their own destiny. Yes, God destined them for that end while at the same time the wicked freely acted in accordance with God's will for them. God's will and man's will are NOT incompatible; hence the biblical doctrine of Compatibilism.

But you totally ignored the fact that in the New Eternal Order the saints will not be able to sin; so, in your world since they won't have any spiritual ability to make any choice that opposes God's will in the eternal order, then this would have to mean that all the glorified saints will be transformed into mindless robots at the resurrection on the last day. You obviously would be like a fish out of water on that day. You would not enjoy the eternal order at all. You would probably complain to God that you don't have the ability to sin and don't enjoy being his "robot".

 

[Magenta]

Calling free will a misnomer does not mean man does not have a will.

Even Jesus was challenged by His human will, in order to submit to the Father's will.

So odd that so many think humanity innately has that same power while a lover of darkness.

And not just a lover of darkness, but defined in Scripture as darkness itself, which does not comprehend the Light.

From this place of darkness and inherent hostility toward God, with a heart incapable of
comprehending or submitting, people believe man makes a choice to love and follow God.

 

[Jimbone]

Calling free will a misnomer does not mean man does not have a will.

Even Jesus was challenged by His human will, in order to submit to the Father's will.

So odd that so many think humanity innately has that same power while a lover of darkness.

And not just a lover of darkness, but defined in Scripture as darkness itself, which does not comprehend the Light.

From this place of darkness and inherent hostility toward God, with a heart incapable of
comprehending or submitting, people believe man makes a choice to love and follow God.

And can't even see they're fighting for man's boast. Salvation is of God, 100% God lest ANY man boast. They want that boast, they can't see that this boast is what they're debating so hard for. To claim at least a little of Gods glory for themselves. I don't know why they seem to have so much of a problem that God gets ALL the glory and ALL the credit for every bit of salvation. They seem to be unable to accept this.

 

[Rufus]

Let's play a game of 'find the presupposition' in the following:

On the other hand, it's written in John 6 that those who do come in faith to Jesus [already presently] have life (Jn 6:47)! This inquiring mind would love to know from you if having this life or not is the ultimate difference between those who do come in faith to Jesus and those who refuse to believe in Him (Jn 5:40)? Whaddya think?

 

[Magenta]

Philippians 1:29a + Romans 8:17b For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him. Indeed, we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[studier]

On the other hand, it's written in John 6 that those who do come in faith to Jesus [already presently] have life (Jn 6:47)! This inquiring mind would love to know from you if having this life or not is the ultimate difference between those who do come in faith to Jesus and those who refuse to believe in Him (Jn 5:40)? Whaddya think?

IOW, no presupposition as alleged.

 

[Rufus]

No, I am elevating my logical understanding (because Adam & Eve were created in the image of God, then all of their descendants share that spiritual trait) over your misinterpretation of "Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth", because you fail to cite Scripture clearly denying my understanding.

Okay...so you want to boast about being made in God's image because that gives you a "freewill"...just like God has? But does he, according to the logic of FWT? After all, God in his immutability is NOT free to do anything contrary to his holy nature or to change it. Therefore, why would you not believe, as God's image-bearer, that you are not free either to act against your nature or to change it?