Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

IOW, no presupposition as alleged.

Everyone has presuppositions, Mr. Studier. Presuppositions in and of themselves are not evil; it's their context that determines whether they are good (biblical) or evil (worldly, carnal, etc.).

So tell me: You cannot see any logical connection between those who are not willing to come to Jesus and God's obvious, gracious remedy, as revealed in John 6, to fix this fatal flaw in unregenerate men?

 

[brightfame52]

Sc


No, the one God wants people who able to love, not be programmed to act loving, so He enables moral free will, which some exercise to become elect while foolish souls choose to ignore GW. YOU are the one conflicted by this truth!

You elevate your logic over scripture correct ?

 

[brightfame52]

No, I am elevating my logical understanding (because Adam & Eve were created in the image of God, then all of their descendants share that spiritual trait) over your misinterpretation of "Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth", because you fail to cite Scripture clearly denying my understanding.

The argument isnt Adam and Eve were not created in the Image and likeness of God, but after sin come into world, and they were confirmed sinners, that changed, so afterwards Adams children were made in his likeness and image Gen 5:1

Man is only restored to the Image of God when made a New Creation Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The old man of what we are in and by adam, because of the fall into sin, and death, isnt in the Image ad likeness of God, sorry

 

[Rufus]

The argument isnt Adam and Eve were not created in the Image and likeness of God, but after sin come into world, and they were confirmed sinners, that changed, so afterwards Adams children were made in his likeness and image Gen 5:1

Man is only restored to the Image of God when made a New Creation Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The old man of what we are in and by adam, because of the fall into sin, and death, isnt in the Image ad likeness of God, sorry

That's because the pre-fall image of God was badly marred -- but not obliterated altogether as you seem to be saying. The Gr. term rendered "renewed" (Strong's 341) in Col 3:10 literally means to "renovate". But only things that currently exist can be renovated, which means to restore to its former better state.

 

[studier]

Everyone has presuppositions, Mr. Studier. Presuppositions in and of themselves are not evil; it's their context that determines whether they are good (biblical) or evil (worldly, carnal, etc.).

So tell me: You cannot see any logical connection between those who are not willing to come to Jesus and God's obvious, gracious remedy, as revealed in John 6, to fix this fatal flaw in unregenerate men?

From evasion to false allegation to everybody has means all questions reflect. A textbook study in fallacies and a full-time job tracking them.

I can see quite a bit in J5-6. Please unload your question and ask it clearly and verse specific. Honestly, I'm not sure you have the ability. As it stands it's simply a loaded rhetorical query with your presuppositional tradition throughout.

Jesus tells a very specific group in J5 that they do not will to come to Him and He explains why. At least you now integrate the reality of the involvement of their will in your rhetorical question. Then into J6 he deals with 3 more groups and their issues. His grace is extended to all of them. Their responses differ. Even the ones who accept Him are challenged to the limit.

BTW, I'm letting @PaulThomson respond to you but you should consider some humility in "extant manuscript" matters. You're consistently making some very basic mistakes and challenging someone who is clearly more learned than you on the matter.

 

[Rufus]

From evasion to false allegation to everybody has means all questions reflect. A textbook study in fallacies and a full-time job tracking them.

I can see quite a bit in J5-6. Please unload your question and ask it clearly and verse specific. Honestly, I'm not sure you have the ability. As it stands it's simply a loaded rhetorical query with your presuppositional tradition throughout.

Jesus tells a very specific group in J5 that they do not will to come to Him and He explains why. At least you now integrate the reality of the involvement of their will in your rhetorical question. Then into J6 he deals with 3 more groups and their issues. His grace is extended to all of them. Their responses differ. Even the ones who accept Him are challenged to the limit.

BTW, I'm letting @PaulThomson respond to you but you should consider some humility in "extant manuscript" matters. You're consistently making some very basic mistakes and challenging someone who is clearly more learned than you on the matter.

Yeah...PT is so smart, so learned, so academically astute and, evidently, at the same time so lazy, that he reads "men" into Jn 12:32, forgetting to check an interlinear to see what the text actually says. What about you: Do you also read "men" into the passage? But yet, I'm the one guilty of "making some very basic mistakes"?

 

[studier]

Yeah...PT is so smart, so learned, so academically astute and, evidently, at the same time so lazy, that he reads "men" into Jn 12:32, forgetting to check an interlinear to see what the text actually says. What about you: Do you also read "men" into the passage? But yet, I'm the one guilty of "making some very basic mistakes"?

Again, @PaulThomson can answer for himself. And, yes, he is more learned than you in Greek. You should just accept it.

Are you using an interlinear online? If so, if you point me to it, I'll show you how to use it more completely or I'll see if I can point you to a better one and show you from there.

 

[GWH]

You put words into mouth. Hell is a just punishment for the wicked, since they, as free moral agents, chose their own destiny. Yes, God destined them for that end while at the same time the wicked freely acted in accordance with God's will for them. God's will and man's will are NOT incompatible; hence the biblical doctrine of Compatibilism.

But you totally ignored the fact that in the New Eternal Order the saints will not be able to sin; so, in your world since they won't have any spiritual ability to make any choice that opposes God's will in the eternal order, then this would have to mean that all the glorified saints will be transformed into mindless robots at the resurrection on the last day. You obviously would be like a fish out of water on that day. You would not enjoy the eternal order at all. You would probably complain to God that you don't have the ability to sin and don't enjoy being his "robot".

No, YOU ignore two facts:

1. Preventing the possibility of sin means programming robots, and

2. If God were going to wind up with robots, it would have been more loving/avoided all pain to create the world ordered that way.