Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

That's an interesting observation I've had thoughts about as well. I use similar reasoning to ask if John the Baptist could have been other than who he became. There are others we could also discuss.

The question, though, is this normative? IMO it's not but it does bring into the discussion how God can (and does) righteously and justly assert Himself into human history for it to ultimately go where He plans it to go.

IOW, He has at His disposal things He can do while we're getting stuck arguing as to whether it's just A or B or maybe in some sense a combination.

It wouldn't be "normative" within a deistic construct; but I don't see why it wouldn't be in a theistic framework.

 

[Magenta]

“Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ” (Rom. 10:17).

And

“The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life” (John 6:63)

John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8 ~ John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Magenta]

Always with the rhetoric and implications that no one does the detail of study you do.
I do see you attempting to learn how to use some Greek tools. I commend you for that.

Oh, the hypocrisy! So typical...

 

[Kroogz]

Next.

 

[Kroogz]

helkō has a range of meaning. It would be helpful if you provide references for statements such as these.

The following is from the Greek Lexicon commonly referred to as BDAG. It'll show up on an online search, but I don't know of any way to view its contents online. I'm copying and pasting excerpts from one of my copies:

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)​

​

[BDAG] ἕλκω​

​

gener. ‘pull, drag, draw’.​

​

1. to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw, with implication that the object being moved is incapable of propelling itself or in the case of pers. is unwilling to do so voluntarily, in either case with implication of exertion on the part of the mover τὶ someth. a sword​

​

2. to draw a pers. in the direction of values for inner life, draw, attract,​

​

3. to appear to be pulled in a certain direction, flow an ext. fig. use intr. flow along of a river​

​

Although I don't let these tools determine my theology, FWIW, BDAG classifies helkō under #2. IMO this is correct.



A few observations about your statements:

• Fortunately, we have the LXX which increases our information from the 8 NT passages to 33 including them.
• In the sense of God drawing (J6) and Jesus drawing (J12) they are in fact active - doing the drawing. And that would make those drawn be passive as you say. But this does not preclude an action by men in response to being drawn that takes into account the will of men. This is the difference between the sword and the man. This is the reason the translators typically say Paul was dragged (against his will) by the angry crowd, but God and Jesus draw.

A few preliminary observations about helkō in J6 and J12:

• As I said earlier re: J6, if we use "drag" there, then:
  • men are being dragged/enabled by force to come to Jesus 6:44
  • men are being dragged - forced - to hear and learn 6:45 in essence God's Word (teaching)
  • Ultimately, men are being dragged - forced - to believe 6:47
  • Read Isaiah 54 (referenced by Jesus in J6:45). This is a picture of God drawing/attracting with kindness and loyalty vs. dragging His bride back to Him.
    • Jesus is talking to Jews in J6. Compare this to Isa54.
  • "Draw" IMO is the better translation.
• I said earlier that John is known to use ambiguity and inferences.
• One reason we struggle with words and verses like this is John's uses of ambiguity and helkō has a range of meaning that also means some ambiguity.
• You've stated some of the J12 context you see re: interpreting "all [men". Here are a few more contextual observations re: draw vs. drag in 12:32:
  • The immediate context is judgment of the world and its ruler and of sin 12:31-32
  • The lifting up of Jesus 12:32 uses the same word used to depict the lifting up of the serpent 3:14 so there are some parallels to be considered.
  • John immediately focuses us on the type of death Jesus would die 12:33-34 (dealing with 12:32a)
  • John then focuses on belief vs. unbelief and eternal life vs. judgment (IMO dealing with 12:32b)
  • Back to the ambiguity of helkō and John:
    • IMO Jesus is talking about drawing men to believe or reject Him and what He accomplishes when He is lifted up.
      • Just a note but John has focused us on the cross, but later we deal with the same word (lifted up) being used for God exalting Jesus Acts2:33, 5:31.
    • IMO Jesus can also be alluding to dragging men to court at the judgment
    • All men will come to Him willingly or before Him unwillingly
      • All knees shall bow
  • If I was doing the translating, I'd use "draw" but would include a translator's note re: "drag".
  • If I was teaching this section of Scripture, I'd likely elaborate the above and open for discussion.

Without speaking for @PaulThomson, I'd assume from what he's previously said that this is at least in the ballpark of his view that ultimately, we're dealing with all men being resurrected to life or judgment.

Some Good stuff brother.
What is disturbing about the "freewill" debate? The point, passion and objective of the "no" freewillers is denying the choice for or against HIS gospel.

The world/all can make any choice possible, but they cannot make a choice to be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Their MISSION and PASSION is to deny Choice for or against His Gospel. All other "free" choices are Just fine, But One for Gospel is impossible. The MISSION of the calvies is to win the debate of "One cannot believe His Gospel!"......Let that sink in.

 

[Magenta]

Some Good stuff brother.
What is disturbing about the "freewill" debate? The point, passion and objective of the "no" freewillers is denying the choice for or against HIS gospel.

The world/all can make any choice possible, but they cannot make a choice to be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Their MISSION and PASSION is to deny Choice for or against His Gospel. All other "free" choices are Just fine, But One for Gospel is impossible. The MISSION of the calvies is to win the debate of "One cannot believe His Gospel!"......Let that sink in.

John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8 ~ John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Kroogz]

John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8 ~ John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

Good and great. But You use them to hinder His Gospel message to unbelievers. Why? Why would you want unbelievers to believe they can't do jack squat with His Gospel?

It's sinister or just plain ignorance.

 

[Magenta]

Their MISSION and PASSION is to deny Choice for or against His Gospel. All other "free" choices are Just fine, But One for Gospel is impossible. The MISSION of the calvies is to win the debate of "One cannot believe His Gospel!"......Let that sink in.

Your lack of understanding is almost shocking but I really shouldn't be surprised... people lie about this all the time as if we're saying nobody can make a choice, when that is not true at all ... the choice is made out of our nature... it is the natural man that will not choose that which he is opposed to with his hostile to God mind and his hard stony heart, which is where one believes ... you have them as a bad tree producing good fruit... that's laughable ... those in rebellion against God, who can neither receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness while being taken captive to the will of the devil... you have them deciding to believe that which is foolishness to them... what a riot. But aside from all that I suggest you learn to represent other people's beliefs properly, because otherwise you're just being dishonest.

 

[Kroogz]

Your lack of understanding is almost shocking but I really shouldn't be surprised... people lie about this all the time as if we're saying nobody can make a choice, when that is not true at all ... the choice is made out of our nature... it is the natural man that will not choose that which he is opposed to with his hostile to God mind and his hard stony heart, which is where one believes ... you have them as a bad tree producing good fruit... that's laughable ... those in rebellion against God, who can neither receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness while being taken captive to the will of the devil... you have them deciding to believe ... what a riot. But aside from all that I suggest you learn to represent other people's beliefs properly, because otherwise you're just being dishonest.

You poor baby! You go on and on and on about unbelievers cannot CHOOSE His Gospel message to them.

Not much sympathy from this believer.

 

[studier]

Everything is worked according to Gods will Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Everything is according to Gods Purpose Ecc 3:1-8

Draw yourself a circle. Label it "in Christ". Picture all Christians being in the circle by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. Every time these Ephesian 1 verses around 1:11 say, "us" or "we" - picture all Christians.

In Christ, God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ:

• blessed Christians in every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies 1:3
• chose Christians [for Himself] before the foundation/beginning of the world 1:4
  • when He predestined Christians for adoption into Himself through Jesus Christ 1:5
    • For praise of His glorious grace which He [graciously] favored Christians in His Beloved [Son] 1:6

In accordance with the abundance of God's Grace 1:7c

• Grace which God provided in abundance for Christians 1:8
  • Grace God provided in abundance in all wisdom and insight/intelligence/understanding 1:8
  • Grace God provided in abundance by making known/revealing to Christians 1:9a
    • [making known] according to God's good pleasure which God planned in Himself for the arrangement of the fullness of the times 1:9b-10a
    • [making known] the mystery which is God's will 1:9b
      • the mystery/God's will to sum up 10b
        • all things - the things in Heaven and the things on earth -
        • in Christ
• In Christ
  • Christians have: 1:9b
    • the redemption through [Christ's] blood
    • the pardon of offenses/violations
  • Christians also obtained an inheritance 1:11a
    • because Christians were predestined 1:11b
      • according to [an] advanced plan 1:11c
        • of the One who works all things 1:11d
          • according to the intention of His will 1:11e

Now, we tend to take this and make it into whatever we want. But 1:11 says Christians obtained an inheritance in Christ because Christians were predestined by God to obtain an inheritance in Christ, because God made a plan for Christians to obtain an inheritance in Christ, and God works all things as He intends and wills to work them. This is God's sovereignty in past action.

1:11 does not say we become Christians because God predestined us to become Christians.

We can back up to the earlier mention of "predestination" in 1:5 and God's choosing in 1:4 - God chose Christians when God predestined Christians for adoption - and it's the same concept. Start with Christ.

When we enter into Christ by Grace through Faith all of this that God planned and implemented in Christ pertains to us. Actually, this is advanced teaching for Christians explaining what we have in Christ and much of what God is doing in Christ to sum up all things in in the universe in Christ (another reference to what John is talking about in John6 re: "every [thing]" the Father gives to Jesus that Jesus doesn't lose from.

I'll watch for your X or thumbs down. I may discuss certain points with you, but I'd prefer to remain in the discussions about GJohn.

 

[Rufus]

Some Good stuff brother.
What is disturbing about the "freewill" debate? The point, passion and objective of the "no" freewillers is denying the choice for or against HIS gospel.

The world/all can make any choice possible, but they cannot make a choice to be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Their MISSION and PASSION is to deny Choice for or against His Gospel. All other "free" choices are Just fine, But One for Gospel is impossible. The MISSION of the calvies is to win the debate of "One cannot believe His Gospel!"......Let that sink in.

Another inane straw man. No one here ever denied that the sons of men don't make choices that align with their nature.

 

[Rufus]

Draw yourself a circle. Label it "in Christ". Picture all Christians being in the circle by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. Every time these Ephesian 1 verses around 1:11 say, "us" or "we" - picture all Christians.

In Christ, God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ:

• blessed Christians in every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies 1:3
• chose Christians [for Himself] before the foundation/beginning of the world 1:4
  • when He predestined Christians for adoption into Himself through Jesus Christ 1:5
    • For praise of His glorious grace which He [graciously] favored Christians in His Beloved [Son] 1:6

In accordance with the abundance of God's Grace 1:7c

• Grace which God provided in abundance for Christians 1:8
  • Grace God provided in abundance in all wisdom and insight/intelligence/understanding 1:8
  • Grace God provided in abundance by making known/revealing to Christians 1:9a
    • [making known] according to God's good pleasure which God planned in Himself for the arrangement of the fullness of the times 1:9b-10a
    • [making known] the mystery which is God's will 1:9b
      • the mystery/God's will to sum up 10b
        • all things - the things in Heaven and the things on earth -
        • in Christ
• In Christ
  • Christians have: 1:9b
    • the redemption through [Christ's] blood
    • the pardon of offenses/violations
  • Christians also obtained an inheritance 1:11a
    • because Christians were predestined 1:11b
      • according to [an] advanced plan 1:11c
        • of the One who works all things 1:11d
          • according to the intention of His will 1:11e

Now, we tend to take this and make it into whatever we want. But 1:11 says Christians obtained an inheritance in Christ because Christians were predestined by God to obtain an inheritance in Christ, because God made a plan for Christians to obtain an inheritance in Christ, and God works all things as He intends and wills to work them. This is God's sovereignty in past action.

1:11 does not say we become Christians because God predestined us to become Christians.

We can back up to the earlier mention of "predestination" in 1:5 and God's choosing in 1:4 - God chose Christians when God predestined Christians for adoption - and it's the same concept. Start with Christ.

When we enter into Christ by Grace through Faith all of this that God planned and implemented in Christ pertains to us. Actually, this is advanced teaching for Christians explaining what we have in Christ and much of what God is doing in Christ to sum up all things in in the universe in Christ (another reference to what John is talking about in John6 re: "every [thing]" the Father gives to Jesus that Jesus doesn't lose from.

I'll watch for your X or thumbs down. I may discuss certain points with you, but I'd prefer to remain in the discussions about GJohn.

And precisely how do those in bondage to the world, the flesh and devil "enter into Christ by grace through faith"? How can it be said that anyone enters in by God's grace since his grace/power does not effectuate anyone's salvation? And since this is the case according to FWs, then it can only be said that ultimately "we enter into Christ" by our own power.

 

[Kroogz]

Another inane straw man. No one here ever denied that the sons of men don't make choices that align with their nature.

Another inane response. As always.
calvies.......Yes, you can make all kinds of choices. But I am here to make sure that you don't make a choice for His Gospel. In fact, you CANNOT make a choice for His Gospel.

The personal is gone with the calvies. You are not "Beth" or "John" you are just an animal with a nature.

 

[Rufus]

Another inane response. As always.
calvies.......Yes, you can make all kinds of choices. But I am here to make sure that you don't make a choice for His Gospel. In fact, you CANNOT make a choice for His Gospel.

The personal is gone with the calvies. You are not "Beth" or "John" you are just an animal with a nature.

Nah...Beth and John are just deader than door nails spiritually. Other than that tiny, spiritual health issue, they're fine.

 

[studier]

I have no problem per se with the translation "draw". I merely pointed out the most literal translation.

Most literal according to you without reference. At some level reference is required if acceptance is expected. With that said I agree it is a legitimate translation but no more literal than other ones.

So, it sounds like we can agree on "draw".

If men are being "dragged or forced" to hear, learn and believe, then this demonstrates God's loving, tender mercies toward helpless, self-deceived sinners who know no better. God rescues his NC people just as he rescued and redeemed the ancient Israelites from their hopeless situation in Egypt.

I get and expected the concept, but disagree. As I referenced, Jesus referenced Isaiah54 and I didn't see any sense of dragging or forcing there. These references, especially by Jesus, are not without purpose. The appeal to the heart strings doesn't sway me from the Text and make me think Grace drags and forces men to hear and learn and believe Jesus is the Christ.

Appeal to the Exodus doesn't work for me either. They were a people calling out to their God for deliverance from oppression. That's quite different than the concept of the spiritual dead that have no ability to do anything unless dragged.

Secondly, man's will initially plays no role in God electing to draw any his chosen people to his Son. God sovereignly does this according to the good pleasure of his own will. This drawing is obviously effectual (Jn 6:37), for all people who were predestined to be given to the Son will in fact come to him in faith, and will be raised up to life on the last day! Is man's will involved in this process of "coming"? Of course, it is. The drawing by God makes them willing. Does this mean that at no point during this drawing process that some or even many won't resist? Absolutely not! In my own personal salvation experience, I started to resist strongly at one point during my search for the truth until God providentially sent a God-fearing, bible-literate pastor into my life to straighten my dumb butt out and deliver me from my self-imposed ignorance. Therefore, I can relate strongly to such passages as Act 16:19; 21:30 when Paul and Silas were "dragged" away against their will. And to this day and to my dying breath, by the grace of God, I will always remain thankful for God being merciful to a stupid wretch like myself by making me willingly in the day of his power.

This is quite an admixture of terminology and some odd sounding statements with presuppositions. No offense intended, but:

• man's will initially plays no role in God electing to draw?
  • Why would it?
• God electing to draw??
• Draw any of his chosen people
  • Presupposes only chosen people?
• I've not accepted your take on J6:37 so again have to watch for it to reject it?
• You're inserting your view of predestination which I disagree with and just answered to some degree on another post.
• The rest - your personal experience I'll pass on much detail because personal experience doesn't mean the Text agrees with what you glean from your experience.
• When you say "makes them willing" - based upon your view of drag, I'd have to ask you to clarify "makes". And some never do stop resisting for various reasons as I showed from John5:40. I realize what the answer is according to your tradition about this, but I disagree with it.
• You willed when you ultimately became convinced, persuaded, for whatever reasons when your thoughts. experiences, circumstances, and the right man/content/timing helped lead you to change your will/mind. You were drawn/enabled > you came > you finally heard and learned > came > believed. For a few reasons which I haven't laid out yet, That came > believed IMO is Come + Believe.
• FWIW, trust me when I say I get the dragging concept. but not to the point where I go with IG as presented in the tradition you adhere to. IMO there's a fine line in all the talk and opinions re: drag, force, coerce, compel, etc., but your preferred tradition again IMO crosses that line through cumulative error interpreting the Text.

This is getting long in response to your narrative. I'll stop here. Again, if you want to extract a point from your point that you'd like to ask separately, I'll consider it.

 

[studier]

And precisely how do those in bondage to the world, the flesh and devil "enter into Christ by grace through faith"? How can it be said that anyone enters in by God's grace since his grace/power does not effectuate anyone's salvation? And since this is the case according to FWs, then it can only be said that ultimately "we enter into Christ" by our own power.

God's Word convinces the thinking mind still capable of being convinced. That's why there is sufficient discussion in the Text re: Christians proclaiming and instructing God's Word to persuade/convince and the drawing/enabling being by the Word the Father was teaching through His Son/the Word in order for men to hear and learn > come. > believe. That same concept is alive and active today with Christ's men proclaiming the Good News Message/Word of the resurrected Christ, the Holy Spirit here convincing since Jesus Christ ascended, and Christ drawing.

I seriously do not get this "our own power" point of view. Faith is submission. God's concerned that we're submitting to Him in our own power after He has planned and implemented what and who He wants us to submit to? This is the reversal of the Fall - willing submission/Faith.

The object of Faith is submitted to and when we understand how powerful Faith/Belief/Trust is, it's not difficult to see why it's what God wants. We believe things we base our entire function on and don't even think about them anymore. We are entirely submitted to these things mentally, spiritually. They can even be wrong, but we're submitted even deeply.

God has initiated everything, so foundationally we have done and can do nothing. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work for the food/information He gives after our Father sent Him to the earth to proclaim and save. Where is our merit? He says we don't have any in this and He owes us no wages for it, and we've simply done what is our duty to do. If we do the work He commands we have merit for our obedience? This is not Mosaic Law righteousness we're talking about. This is doing what's necessary to hear and learn His drawing/enabling/teaching and submit to Faith Righteousness as He commands.

If it concerns anyone that we submit to God by believing Him and trusting Him for what we cannot do for ourselves, I suggest they consider how they're swung the pendulum too far to protect against erroneous concepts of "works salvation".