Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Dealing with loss of salvation is not my concern at the moment nor is a philosophical discussion of FW nor is being grouped into any heading like FWs.

What makes you say I'm surprised or incredulous about the reverse of the Fall? I brought it up as applicable so why wouldn't I believe it?



Another discussion, I guess. If God doesn't limit His power in salvation, then I suppose we have to discuss universal salvation and a few other things e.g. why the salvation process takes so long, why there aren't millions of Apostles running around today doing obvious miracles to credential them for Christ and the power of His proclamation, why He allows old erroneous traditions and other errors and false teachings to deter from His truth, why.... Shirley we could come up with some things that seem like the Creator of the universe might do more powerfully if He chose to. He must have a purpose in limiting Himself.

He doesn't limit himself. He's simply sticking to his plan. And his plan was never to save all w/o exception. God doesn't limit his power qualitatively to his elect; for he truly does raise up his elect from their spiritual tombs and give them eternal life. He only limits the scope of his power. Neither Jn 6 or 12 teach that God gives and draws all w/o exception to His Son. And good thing scripture doesn't; for it did, we'd be faced with quite the theological dilemma, as I posted previously.

Oh...and before I forget, I owe you an apology. This morning I was having my devotions in Deuteronomy. And I read this passage:

Deut 26:5-7
5 Then you shall declare before the LORD your God: "My father was a wandering Aramean, and he went down into Egypt with a few people and lived there and became a great nation, powerful and numerous. 6 But the Egyptians mistreated us and made us suffer, putting us to hard labor. 7 Then we cried out to the LORD, the God of our fathers, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our misery, toil and oppression.
NIV

So, it appears God's remnant of believers in Egypt could have consisted of more than just the two Hebrew midwives. However, it is still noteworthy that the ancient Hebrews cried out to God due to their physical oppression from which they wanted deliverance. There's nothing in the passage that says they cried out to God to save their souls or to forgive their sins. But even so...even with a non-spiritual motive, you were correct in that the Hebrews cried out to God, which Ex 3 (the passage upon which I was relying) omits this detail.

I hold the Holy Word of God in the highest esteem and value it as much as I value God's love, since I consider it to be the only absolute truth that exists in this dark, forlorn, fallen world. Therefore, I would never intentionally mislead anyone away from God's truth.

 

[studier]

And what do all those passages have to do with saint Lydia's open heart transplant?

Have an open heart/mind - pay attention - you might hear & learn from something powerful and believe it.

 

[studier]

He doesn't limit himself. He's simply sticking to his plan

Should I read more than this? Do you want to rethink this first?

 

[Rufus]

And your source(s) for "hates" in these verses?

2 When pride comes, then comes shame; But with the humble is wisdom. (Prov. 11:2 NKJ)

20 Those who are of a perverse heart are an abomination to the LORD, But the blameless in their ways are His delight. (Prov. 11:20 NKJ)

NIV, NASB, Darby, YLT and KJV. These last four render the Hebrew word as "abomination" in both vv. 1 and 20.

 

[Magenta]

Have an open heart/mind - pay attention - you might hear & learn from something powerful and believe it.

She did not open her own heart. I hope you believe God did. It is what Scripture attests to.

Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira,
who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

 

[Rufus]

Have an open heart/mind - pay attention - you might hear & learn from something powerful and believe it.

Oh okay...so now you're going to wax cryptic?

 

[Magenta]

Oh okay...so now you're going to wax cryptic?

Just more of their holier-than-thou hypocrisy.

 

[Rufus]

She did not open her own heart. I hope you believe God did.

And what has always struck me about Lydia is that she was obviously a God-fearing, God-worshiping proselyte when God got a hold of her -- and He still had to do a mighty work in her heart to "force" her to believe the gospel -- not just her mind -- but her heart wherein all the faculties of man reside. So...since this was true of this kind of person, how much more with vile, wicked, debauched, God-hating sinners!?

 

[Magenta]

And what has always struck me about Lydia is that she was obviously a God-fearing, God-worshiping proselyte when God got a hold of her -- and He still had to do a mighty work in her heart to "force" her to believe the gospel -- not just her mind -- but her heart wherein all the faculties of man reside. So...since this was true of this kind of person, how much more with vile, wicked, debauched, God-hating sinners!?

Exactly!

All these people who deny God must move first, my goodness, it is almost shocking how much
Scripture they must overthrow and ignore and sweep under the rug in order to believe ALL can
hear and ALL can obey and ALL can submit against all the verses that say the exact opposite.

Then they claim we are saying something we are not. Either they completely misunderstand or they
deliberately deceive, and in some cases I really do have to believe it is deliberate because they have
been informed time and time again and still they misrepresent and claim nobody is misrepresenting.

 

[studier]

NIV, NASB, Darby, YLT and KJV. These last four render the Hebrew word as "abomination" in both vv. 1 and 20.

Typo in your first post 11:2 vs. 11:1

Neither Hebrew nor Greek mean "hate" and "hate" not in the English. There are different words for "hate". Need to be a little cautious when going to English synonyms (detest <> hate) or at least find the parallelism(s) in the Hebrew or Greek.

 

[lrs68]

It is you who does not understand. "true Theologians and Scholars" didn't write scripture, God did.
Since scripture alone was given by God, and scripture alone can make the "man of God THROUGHLY furnished unto good works", then scripture alone must also include within itself, the keys to its own interpretation.
Further, it would be a complete logical impossibility, for God to have made such a claim about scripture and yet not have also provided everything in scripture necessary to satisfy that claim. Were scripture incomplete even to the slightest degree, then God's claim would be incorrect and a lie and scripture untrustworthy.
Furthermore, you missed the "is profitable" (v16) and "thoroughly furnished" (v17) parts. which demonstrates precisely what you said it doesn't demonstrate. Read the verses again only this time ponder them more closely.

Look at my post and your response. You clearly didn't even understand what I wrote but you want me to think you understand the Bible?

Aren't You just precious!
Bless Your Heart!

 

[rogerg]

Look at my post and your response. You clearly didn't even understand what I wrote but you want me to think you understand the Bible?

Aren't You just precious!
Bless Your Heart!

Well then if you can, explain it now

 

[studier]

Oh okay...so now you're going to wax cryptic?

Trying different angles to open your mind. Listed verses show thinking is in the heart. You use some of the online resources. Here's one for the Hebrew "leb" Strong's Hebrew: 3820. לֵב (leb) -- Heart

You're probably aware of the Hebrew concept of the heart. Look at the verse in your different English translations and see them differ in translating prosechō. Double check them yourself. That's what these online tools provide opportunity to do.

In our vernacular we more often speak of opening our mind - same and even more comprehensive in Hebrew.

The Lord opened her heart/mind to pay attention to (hear, listen, consider) Paul & Timothy teaching the Gospel. This isn't a heart transplant, but a check in the mind/heart to go listen to someone she might otherwise avoid. The power inherent in the WORD God uses to save as we were earlier discussing.

 

[studier]

And what has always struck me about Lydia is that she was obviously a God-fearing, God-worshiping proselyte when God got a hold of her -- and He still had to do a mighty work in her heart to "force" her to believe the gospel -- not just her mind -- but her heart wherein all the faculties of man reside. So...since this was true of this kind of person, how much more with vile, wicked, debauched, God-hating sinners!?

Open Text > insert tradition.

 

[Rufus]

Scripture, and scripture alone, was designed and written by God to be its own dictionary and is fully self-contained pertaining to His plan of salvation. The definitions derived from a dictionary written by man, shouldn't be trusted for such if that was your point.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

That's an excellent point. Although...when ancient bible language experts come up with a English word, I often will consult a secular, English dictionary to catch all the definitions to see how any of them fit into the context of a passage. But at the same time, secular dictionaries are not the final authority. As you have correctly pointed out, the final authority is the Word of God. And what carries more weight with me, generally, than etymology is word usage. This latter tool can often reveal biblical definitions that secular dictionaries omit. A great example that comes to mind is the definition of "grace" -- a highly important word in scripture, making it incumbent upon all honest and sincere students of the Word to understand this term with all its nuances. What secular dictionaries omit is that "grace" is also synonymous with "power" -- a fact that is hotly debated in some circles, as it appears most people want to stick with secular definitions, which are fine as far as they go. But the bible goes beyond those definitions, as it does clearly equate grace with power (2Cor 12: 7-10). Having said that, Dictionary.com comes pretty close to revealing that nuance in its NINTH definition, which reads:

• moral strength:
  the grace to perform a duty.

Can anyone honestly say that this "moral strength" is not the power to perform a duty? Or what about grace/power to overcome or bear up with affliction such as Paul did with the thorn in his side?

 

[lrs68]

Well then if you can, explain it now

Explain that God wrote the Bible?

Or explain the difference between choice and yielding?

This is what I wrote about that you quoted.

 

[Rufus]

Trying different angles to open your mind. Listed verses show thinking is in the heart. You use some of the online resources. Here's one for the Hebrew "leb" Strong's Hebrew: 3820. לֵב (leb) -- Heart

You're probably aware of the Hebrew concept of the heart. Look at the verse in your different English translations and see them differ in translating prosechō. Double check them yourself. That's what these online tools provide opportunity to do.

In our vernacular we more often speak of opening our mind - same and even more comprehensive in Hebrew.

The Lord opened her heart/mind to pay attention to (hear, listen, consider) Paul & Timothy teaching the Gospel. This isn't a heart transplant, but a check in the mind/heart to go listen to someone she might otherwise avoid. The power inherent in the WORD God uses to save as we were earlier discussing.

But the intellect is a faculty that resides in the heart! Since the entire heart of man is depraved (i.e. all four of its faculties), then God must act upon the entire heart, which is precisely what he promised to do in his New Covenant. He didn't promise Israel that he would put just a new mind in them, but rather a new heart so that all the faculties therein will operate in sync to produce godly choices.

 

[Magenta]

Trying different angles to open your mind.

More of your hypocrisy.

 

[Rufus]

Open Text > insert tradition.

Nope. The text says that God opened her heart. That means he touched her mind, affections, conscience and volition! This is a great example of God making good on his NC promise:

Ezek 36:26
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
NIV

And since Lydia responded just as God purposed, then I can only conclude that his action upon her heart was efficacious.

 

[Magenta]

The Lord opened her heart/mind to pay attention to (hear, listen, consider) Paul & Timothy teaching the Gospel.

Not everyone can hear. Those who hear live. Add it up. Can you add?

Some say all hear. Scripture says otherwise.