Understanding God’s election

[fredoheaven]

The drawing denotes two things, #1 its for a select group, the elect, for the word draw helkō is akin to haireō :

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

The same word used for chosen in 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath G138 ➔ from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So the subjects of the drawing are the ones the Fahter has chosen,

You misread Stong. He's not really sure if it is. and then again jumping from another Gk word which is "ago". You are just trying to tweak it with a biased interpretation. The "bringing' of the people means not to drag but to lead, guide, or direct. For some info, 'bring ' in 1611 means to induce, to persuade... Well, well well.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rufus

Are you sure about that?

yes, I posted it didnt I ?

Helko" is never translated "persuade" in the NT.

Which means nothing, the word still means to persuade :

I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44;

 

[brightfame52]

@fredoheaven

You misread Stong. He's not really sure

Yes he said probably, but Im sure he had good reasons for that. And as I examined the word and compared scripture with scripture, I concluded he had good enough reason to make that inference. I read up on him James Strong, very scholarly fellow, well studied.

 

[fredoheaven]

@fredoheaven



Yes he said probably, but Im sure he had good reasons for that. And as I examined the word and compared scripture with scripture, I concluded he had good enough reason to make that inference. I read up on him James Strong, very scholarly fellow, well studied.

Exactly you are trying to persuade me but I choose not. I like comparing scripture with scripture but are we doing it? Umm...

 

[brightfame52]

Exactly you are trying to persuade me but I choose not. I like comparing scripture with scripture but are we doing it? Umm...

Im not trying to persuade you, thats Gods business, Im declaring what I believe I see in scripture. And yes I have compared a scripture.

 

[fredoheaven]

Im not trying to persuade you, thats Gods business, Im declaring what I believe I see in scripture. And yes I have compared a scripture.

My general/ critical observation is that I failed to see such a comparison of related/ similar words during discussions and you are stating your view. Well anyway so much for this.

 

[brightfame52]

My general/ critical observation is that I failed to see such a comparison of related/ similar words during discussions and you are stating your view. Well anyway so much for this.

I cant help what you failed to see, I dont dictate my affairs by that.

 

[Rufus]

Nope. Being a former calvie/reformed person myself. I REFUSE to believe your nice fluffy 10,000 word essay to just say...." Unbelievers cannot believe His Gospel to them."

And even that would be a patently FALSE unqualified statement; for scripture teaches unbelievers can believe "His Gospel" if they have been chosen by God in eternity to do so.

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus



yes, I posted it didnt I ?



Which means nothing, the word still means to persuade :

I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44;

Nothing personal, but I'll go with the numerous different teams of Gr. language experts who were involved in the many translations we have. The consensus seems to be unanimous -- not that I have every single translation under the sun on my computer-- but from the many and varied types I do have, I'm comfortable with that.

 

[Rufus]

In Studier's 9510 he wrote:

When we enter into Christ by Grace through Faith all of this that God planned and implemented in Christ pertains to us.

How can we enter BY grace when it isn't effectual?

In 9516, he wrote:

God's Word convinces the thinking mind still capable of being convinced.

And does this not speak to inherent mental power and spiritual ability in sinners that is required for performance or accomplishment of some task or duty? Since sinners have this kind of mental/intellectual power and spiritual ability then these qualities imply mental and spiritual competence in order to implement those powers, e.g. the power to choose to repent and believe the gospel. And just how does your high view of unregenerate sinners with a "thinking mind" square with 1Cor 1:26-30?

And since these sinners are still capable of being convinced, how isn't that capability the cause for their salvation -- their cause for being in Christ!? Yet, v. 30 of the above passage says that by God's doing the elect are in Christ. Therefore, how can God's doing (his work) not be effectual?

Yet, in the very same post you also incredulously wrote:

I seriously do not get this "our own power" point of view. Faith is submission. God's concerned that we're submitting to Him in our own power after He has planned and implemented what and who He wants us to submit to? This is the reversal of the Fall - willing submission/Faith.

Well...just look at what you just got done saying! You just got finished saying that man has all this mental/intellectual and spiritual ability.

Then he wrote in the same post:

God has initiated everything, so foundationally we have done and can do nothing....This is the reversal of the Fall - willing submission/Faith.

Now you're being duplicitous, Mr. Studier. On one hand, you don't believe God's grace is efficacious, but now essentially say that after God "jump starts" sinners (i.e. "initiated everything"), we're powerless to do anything!? If God's grace isn't efficacious AND at the same time, we're so powerless that we "can do nothing", then pray tell how does anyone come to faith? Something or Someone must effectively be at work to get dead sinners to believe! The tooth fairy, perhaps? Man in the moon? Humpty Dumpty? Who or what is the final and primary cause of man's salvation? And if it's not God, then why should any Christian pray to Him on behalf of any lost soul since he does not cause anyone to be saved?

Also, many FWs would take issue with the quote immediately above. If sinners "can do nothing" because God "initiated everything", then how can sinners lose their salvation?

And, yes, this is a reversal of the Fall since Adam came into this world spiritually alive and without sin -- which can hardly describe the spiritual condition of all his progeny. So, why are you surprised? Or incredulous?


Then in 9522 he said:

You know God's power is not limited other than Him limiting Himself for His reasons. As I recall, I've seen you write about that. So, why try to make it look like I'm suggesting He's limited in His abilities other than self-limited as you've said as I recall.

But I have never said God limited his power in his saving grace! Quite to the contrary! God not only initiates salvation, he completes it all the way to the end (Rom 8:30). (You might want to take careful note of the six "hes" in this verse.)

(To be continued)

 

[Rufus]

Sorry about the glitch. But something burped either on my system or with this site. So, I had to make two posts.

Tell me: Did God limit his power when he delivered Israel from the evil clutches of Pharoah? Did He just "initiate" his rescue mission with the ten plagues and then left the Israelites to figure out on their own how to cross the Red Sea to escape the king's army who was bearing down hard on them? I mean...any "thinking person" with any capability at all should have been able to figure out how to cross it and escape the oncoming army, right? OR did God lead (draw) them through the Sea that he effectually parted for them? And was it merely a coincidence that at the Red Sea, when he performed this stupendous miracle, that many Israelites came to believe in God and in Moses (a type of Christ, cf. Ex 14:31)!? But in FWT, God never effectuates any one's salvation; He merely provides sinners with the opportunity to repent and believe. (I wonder where the Jews would be today if God had merely presented their ancestors in Egypt with the opportunity to escape their bondage and Pharaoh's army... Since the Exodus is a type of spiritual redemption, one would logically think that God would have done just that -- present them with the opportunity to make the right choice.)

And how is it that time and time again -- repeatedly in the OT -- God effectually performed great signs, wonders and miracles in the physical deliverance of his people, to planting them in the physical land and in the defeat of their physical enemies; yet, when it comes to spiritual deliverance, then FWs angrily cry "FOUL"!? God's supernatural work is clearly relegated to a back burner of only physical deliverances by FWs! This is also the case in the NT wherein numerous miracles on peoples' physical infirmities were performed by Christ.

Yet, the efficacious nature of saving grace is found everywhere in the bible. We can start with God's work that is explicated in Rom 8:30 that starts with predestination and ends with glorification.

Or Jn 6:37 that clearly teaches that all the Father gives to the Son will come to him! ALL -- not some, not a few, not many -- but all! Nor does the text say that all the Father gives "may"or "perhaps" will come to Christ. Sounds pretty effectual to me.

Or take Jn 17:2 wherein Jesus states all authority had been given to him so that He would give eternal life to all the Father has given to him?

Or what about Jesus' remarks to Peter after his confession of Jesus as the Messiah (Mat 16:7)? No human "convinced" Peter about Christ's identity but God through his inner work in the apostle's heart revealed who Jesus was.

Or what about Lydia in Act 16:14-15? God didn't just open her mind, but her heart to receive the message of life! And God felt the need to do this with a God-fearing woman to boot -- a Gentile worshiper of God! But even so...she apparently needed a heart transplant. But you have meticulously avoided any mention of sinners' hearts in your posts. Rather, you have focused entirely on one faculty: Their mind, thereby presenting a very, biased, lopsided and extreme view of that one faculty at the expense of the others, even though the mind is every bit darkness as the rest of the heart. The prophet Isaiah said in chapter 1 that there was nothing sound in man's heart -- that his heart was desperately sick -- that man was ruined from the top of his head to the bottom of his feet. So, it doesn't appear that man's heart makes men capable or competent to do much of anything spiritually that would please God. After all, those "in the flesh" cannot please God (Rom 8:8).

Or what about 2Cor 4:3-6, Mr. Studier? Does God cure satanic blindness of unbelievers before or after they believe? And is this spiritual cure effectual?

Try as you may, sir, you can't have it both ways. In one breath, you can't deny the efficacious nature of saving grace but then in the next tell us that "foundationally we have done nothing and can do nothing" -- all because God "initiated everything". If you concede that he sovereignly "initiated everything" then how can you be so dead sure that he doesn't continue what he started "in Christians" (i.e. the elect) to the very end, which just happens to be what Php 1:6 and Rom 8:30 teach!?

 

[studier]

In Studier's 9510 he wrote:

When we enter into Christ by Grace through Faith all of this that God planned and implemented in Christ pertains to us.

How can we enter BY grace when it isn't effectual?

Define effectual?

Is it irresistible?

 

[studier]

In 9516, he wrote:

God's Word convinces the thinking mind still capable of being convinced.

And does this not speak to inherent mental power and spiritual ability in sinners that is required for performance or accomplishment of some task or duty? Since sinners have this kind of mental/intellectual power and spiritual ability then these qualities imply mental and spiritual competence in order to implement those powers, e.g. the power to choose to repent and believe the gospel. And just how does your high view of unregenerate sinners with a "thinking mind" square with 1Cor 1:26-30?

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor. 1:17-18 NKJ)

• Paul proclaims the good news of the cross of Christ
• To we who are being saved the cross of Christ message Paul proclaims is God power

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Cor. 1:21 NKJ)

• By means of the proclamation [of the cross of Christ] God is pleased to save the men who believe
  • See what you can find in your Greek tools to define the preposition "dia". This is saying the instrument God uses to save is the Gospel. If you'd like me to provide a copy of the definition from BDAG, let me know.

I'll leave it to you to find the places in the NC that speak of Paul persuading people (still capable of being convinced) that Jesus is the Christ.

I see no need to respond here to all the argument re: man's capabilities. It looks like it'll come up again. Some of the things we've been discussing re: John6 fit right in here. Jesus commands unbelievers to work for the lasting [spiritual] food for eternal life He gives. God draws/enables a man to come by teaching him & the man who hears and learns from God (His Word) comes + believes.

I'm not tied down with error of your tradition re: spiritual death. God knows what men are capable of. He uses the instrument He knows saves. Per the context of your referenced 1Cor1, that saving instrument is the Gospel He teaches for men to hear and learn.

And since these sinners are still capable of being convinced, how isn't that capability the cause for their salvation -- their cause for being in Christ!? Yet, v. 30 of the above passage says that by God's doing the elect are in Christ. Therefore, how can God's doing (his work) not be effectual?

Answered above. God saves by means of His Good News Message/Proclamation about His Son. Men don't save. God is the cause. Not men. God requires Faith, which is also submission. God is seeking men who will bow in obeisance in Spirit & Truth (John4). God initiates. Men choose to accept or reject.

Once you define "effectual" we can discuss it. This must also include your answer re: "irresistible".

Yet, in the very same post you also incredulously wrote:

I seriously do not get this "our own power" point of view. Faith is submission. God's concerned that we're submitting to Him in our own power after He has planned and implemented what and who He wants us to submit to? This is the reversal of the Fall - willing submission/Faith.

Well...just look at what you just got done saying! You just got finished saying that man has all this mental/intellectual and spiritual ability.

Man has the ability to hear and learn and believe. So, God provides the saving teaching for man to hear and learn + believe. If it weren't for God revealing Himself to and in men and if it weren't for God's powerful saving message about His Son and the convincing ministry of the Spirit of God and the persuading ministry of Christ's proclaimers, unbelieving man would have nothing to hear and learn and believe and therefore remain unable to come to Jesus + believe.

God saves. Man believes for salvation. Both are active voice.

Then he wrote in the same post:

God has initiated everything, so foundationally we have done and can do nothing....This is the reversal of the Fall - willing submission/Faith.

Answered above. You seem intent on ignoring such input in order to manufacture some supposed claim by others that man is saving himself. Silly. Men remain able to eat physically and spiritually. God supplies both kinds of food. Both are powerful BTW. Your tradition misinterprets spiritual death and promotes error.

Taking this piecemeal.

 

[studier]

Now you're being duplicitous, Mr. Studier. On one hand, you don't believe God's grace is efficacious, but now essentially say that after God "jump starts" sinners (i.e. "initiated everything"), we're powerless to do anything!? If God's grace isn't efficacious AND at the same time, we're so powerless that we "can do nothing", then pray tell how does anyone come to faith? Something or Someone must effectively be at work to get dead sinners to believe! The tooth fairy, perhaps? Man in the moon? Humpty Dumpty? Who or what is the final and primary cause of man's salvation? And if it's not God, then why should any Christian pray to Him on behalf of any lost soul since he does not cause anyone to be saved?

Define efficacious. Same as effectual? How about irresistible?

We can discuss Grace after you define your words so we can see if we view Grace the same as one another. Maybe you don't understand Grace.

BTW, while I'm talking about defining, I've had more thoughts about helko and am rethinking the use of both draw & drag after looking at John21 and some other associated verses and words.

 

[studier]

Also, many FWs would take issue with the quote immediately above. If sinners "can do nothing" because God "initiated everything", then how can sinners lose their salvation?

And, yes, this is a reversal of the Fall since Adam came into this world spiritually alive and without sin -- which can hardly describe the spiritual condition of all his progeny. So, why are you surprised? Or incredulous?

Dealing with loss of salvation is not my concern at the moment nor is a philosophical discussion of FW nor is being grouped into any heading like FWs.

What makes you say I'm surprised or incredulous about the reverse of the Fall? I brought it up as applicable so why wouldn't I believe it?

Then in 9522 he said:

You know God's power is not limited other than Him limiting Himself for His reasons. As I recall, I've seen you write about that. So, why try to make it look like I'm suggesting He's limited in His abilities other than self-limited as you've said as I recall.

But I have never said God limited his power in his saving grace! Quite to the contrary! God not only initiates salvation, he completes it all the way to the end (Rom 8:30). (You might want to take careful note of the six "hes" in this verse.)

Another discussion, I guess. If God doesn't limit His power in salvation, then I suppose we have to discuss universal salvation and a few other things e.g. why the salvation process takes so long, why there aren't millions of Apostles running around today doing obvious miracles to credential them for Christ and the power of His proclamation, why He allows old erroneous traditions and other errors and false teachings to deter from His truth, why.... Shirley we could come up with some things that seem like the Creator of the universe might do more powerfully if He chose to. He must have a purpose in limiting Himself.

 

[studier]

Or what about Lydia in Act 16:14-15? God didn't just open her mind, but her heart to receive the message of life!

When I can I'll consider looking at this additional lengthy "tome" as I recall your referring to one of my posts. I wish you would cease drawing back to these staple verses of your tradition. After nearly 10,000 posts I'm sure they've been addressed many times.

In quick glance I saw the typical reference to Lydia in Acts. A "heart transplant" huh? That's what opening her heart to pay attention to Paul means?

Firstly, do some work on the correlation to mind and heart and explain to me the difference. Here are the verses in Luke-Acts: I'll hit a few with underlines.

NKJ Lk. 1:17 "He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
NKJ Lk. 1:51 He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
NKJ Lk. 1:66 And all those who heard them kept them in their hearts, saying, "What kind of child will this be?" And the hand of the Lord was with him.
NKJ Lk. 2:19 But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart.
NKJ Lk. 2:35 "(yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
NKJ Lk. 2:51 Then He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them, but His mother kept all these things in her heart.
NKJ Lk. 3:15 Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John, whether he was the Christ or not,
NKJ Lk. 4:18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
NKJ Lk. 5:22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
NKJ Lk. 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
NKJ Lk. 8:12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
NKJ Lk. 8:15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
NKJ Lk. 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a little child and set him by Him,
NKJ Lk. 10:27 So he answered and said, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.'"
NKJ Lk. 12:34 "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
NKJ Lk. 12:45 "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk,
NKJ Lk. 16:15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
NKJ Lk. 21:14 "Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;
NKJ Lk. 21:34 "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
NKJ Lk. 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
NKJ Lk. 24:32 And they said to one another, "Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?"
NKJ Lk. 24:38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
NKJ Acts 2:26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
NKJ Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
NKJ Acts 2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
NKJ Acts 4:32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.
NKJ Acts 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
NKJ Acts 5:4 "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
NKJ Acts 7:23 "Now when he was forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren, the children of Israel.
NKJ Acts 7:39 "whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt,
NKJ Acts 7:51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
NKJ Acts 7:54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
NKJ Acts 8:21 "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
NKJ Acts 8:22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
NKJ Acts 11:23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.
NKJ Acts 13:22 "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'
NKJ Acts 14:17 "Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness."
NKJ Acts 15:9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
NKJ Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.
NKJ Acts 21:13 Then Paul answered, "What do you mean by weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus."
NKJ Acts 28:27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."'

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing personal, but I'll go with the numerous different teams of Gr. language experts who were involved in the many translations we have. The consensus seems to be unanimous -- not that I have every single translation under the sun on my computer-- but from the many and varied types I do have, I'm comfortable with that.

You go with what you want, as I did. I believe what I posted has a sound basis scripturally, doesnt matter if you dont agree friend

 

[brightfame52]

@studier

Man has the ability to hear and learn and believe.

Not without regeneration first. The natural man lacks that ability when it comes to spiritual truths. 1 Cor 2:14

 

[GWH]

There's literally 40 examples of using the WILL, which our WILL has nothing to do with choice.


8
Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the Lord and come to his sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever, and serve the Lord your God.

28
Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside[f] the king's command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.

23
And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."


Best example of yielding is the process of salvation.
1. Hear the Gospel preached
2. Given Faith from God to Believe
3. YIELDING to God to let God do His Will.

Jesus, the human being, said NOT MY WILL BE DONE but YOUR WILL be done.

Free Will is about YIELDING your will to God to feed the SPIRIT.
Choice is about which menu item do I want to eat to feed my FLESH

As a former English teacher I am amazed by those who want/choose/will to disagree with dictionary definitions!
What doctrinal heresy is committed by understanding choosing and willing to be synonymous with yielding?

 

[HeIsHere]

Including @Kroogz & @PaulThomson and any others.

Keeping it simple and not in any way trying to put you on the spot (as they say):

What do you see as the tremendous implications?

Is there a concept of Election that you see as Biblical? Simply stated, what is it?

Implications....

It is a different soteriology than Paul preached, denying that people can believe the Gospel, one has to wait on God to be selected.

Regeneration preceding faith is not taught in scripture.

It changes the character of God, to a god who only loves some.

This (Calvinist soteriology whether the full expression or select parts) creates an elitist mind set.

It fashions a god who is morally ambivalent and not trustworthy.

If one accepts the full doctrine of Calvinism then it makes God the author of evil.

Requiring saving faith to be a gift of God (not supported by the scripture) is a calvinistic doctrine which again means that God selects those to whom He will bequeath salvation.

It is emotionally and mentally destructive that is why we hear testimonies of people be set free from its bondage.

I could go on...but I will spare myself.

The elect are those who have believed (by the power of the truth inherent in the Gospel and the outworking NOT inner working of the HS) and are placed in Christ.