Understanding God’s election
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From the @PaulThomson post on the issue, it seems he understands the "us" in the verse. I was clear enough to someone who reads and am available to answer a question to anyone who asks about anything I say. "slipshod" is one of your pointless gutter-level remarks albeit one of the lighter accusations and meaningless and lacking comments you put forth.
Is that all you have to say about 2Cor3-4 which you mistaught? If you could apply yourself to some detailed level reading and respond with some meaningful points, maybe we'd get somewhere.
Is that all you have to say about 2Cor3-4 which you mistaught? If you could apply yourself to some detailed level reading and respond with some meaningful points, maybe we'd get somewhere.
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Reformed folks preach or teach the gospel the same way Jesus and the apostles did. We certainly emphasize personal responsibility and accountability for how they receive the message of life. And I also stress to the unsaved that they should earnestly seek God for help. They should pray to him to grant them repentance and faith. Re this last point, this is something you FWs cannot do in good conscience if you remain consistent with your beliefs. Why would any FWer encourage or exhort any unbeliever to to pray to God to effectuate their own salvation, since according to FWT, salvation is self-effectuated by unbelievers themselves. It would be entirely hypocritical of any FWer to tell any unbeliever to pray to God for their own salvation.
Yeah. Nothing about the Cross and His death and resurrection......For unbelievers. Just an intellectual " I am right."
You don't fool me. I Pray you don't fool others.
Unbelievers~~ Jesus Christ died and rose again for you and every person on this planet. He asks that you believe on HIM for your salvation. Anywhere, any place you can do this and be saved. Screw the calvies, Jesus saves anyone who asks Him.
You don't fool me. I Pray you don't fool others.
Unbelievers~~ Jesus Christ died and rose again for you and every person on this planet. He asks that you believe on HIM for your salvation. Anywhere, any place you can do this and be saved. Screw the calvies, Jesus saves anyone who asks Him.
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I think my real "aha" moment on this thread was how the Gospel is presented to a non-believer by the "can't believe" adherents.
I am so glad the man who shared the Gospel with me was so well grounded in the faith and he made it very clear that it was indeed personal.
I cannot agree more than I do, absolutely sinister to deny that man is born without the ability to believe the Gospel ... those who are perishing are those who have chosen to not believe.
I am so glad the man who shared the Gospel with me was so well grounded in the faith and he made it very clear that it was indeed personal.
I cannot agree more than I do, absolutely sinister to deny that man is born without the ability to believe the Gospel ... those who are perishing are those who have chosen to not believe.
Ah, yes, according to you God is SO unfair that some cannot hear and do not belong to Him.
John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8, John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:7a, Galatians 5:17, John 1:5, John 14:17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8, John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:7a, Galatians 5:17, John 1:5, John 14:17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
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The Danger of Calvinism
1. If Calvinism is correct and God decreed/ordained/predestined every single event to happen then that would mean He is directly and personally responsible for every rape, murder, liar, molester, thievery, idolater, drunkard, junkie, sorcerer, atheist, Satanist, terrorist, human genocide, etc etc. He would be responsible for every single evil that has ever walked the face of the planet…you name it…He decreed/ordained it to happen due to Calvinism. And that is utter blasphemy.
2. This doctrine is making God the author of evil/sin/wickedness. It’s a very ungodly doctrine that has people to be lost when they had no choice in the matter due to God purposefully choosing them to be lost. It makes God a respecter of persons and has Him being very unjust which is completely opposite of a loving and Holy God. On judgment day as they are being cast into the lake of fire, they should say “NOOOO!!! I DIDN’T HAVE A CHANCE!! It’s not MY fault!! YOU didn’t give ME the ABILITY to CHOOSE!!!” Calvinism’s God simply says “Tough…you can’t and couldn’t do a thing about it because those were the cards that were stacked against you and those are the cards that I dealt you.”
3. According to Calvinist nothing happens outside of God’s will and we can’t do anything outside of His will. Everything that happens is because it has been decreed before the world ever began. So, when a child gets molested is that God’s will? Is the molester doing the will of God by doing that sin that they were decreed to do? If the molester does not do that, then would the molester be going outside of God’s will that the molester was decreed to do? If a good Samaritan stops the molester or whoever else from doing a sin, then the good Samaritan that stops them would be going against what God has decreed the molester to do, or whoever else that is sinning. Such a sick and blasphemous doctrine.
4. How does anyone know what God has decreed if people are told to stop doing something when God has decreed it? Would a Christian be wrong for telling a sinner who was decreed by God to sin to stop sinning? Would the decree of God to have a Christian stop a sinner from sinning interfere or go outside God’s will with His decree to have a sinner commit sin? In other words their doctrine has God contradicting Himself in what He has decreed. This doctrine makes no sense at all.
5. Did God decree all of this to happen? Did He decree me to type and post this? If He did then is it wrong what I believe? If it is, then did God decree something wrong since I strongly disagree with Reformed Theology? If Calvinists disagree then were they decreed to disagree with what God decreed of me to believe? Everyone would be going against what God decrees according to Reformed Theology. If some are unconditionally chosen to have eternal life then why bother preaching the gospel? Why bother giving us the Bible? Why did Jesus have to die if some are already unconditionally saved?
6. If everything is predestined by God then why bother telling a sinner they are in the wrong since they are doing what God predestined, decreed, ordained them to do or believe in the first place?
7. The doctrine of Calvinism makes God into an evil tyrant that is unmerciful and is not the God of the Bible. Why would it matter to Calvinists how anyone acts if God has decreed/ordained them to act like that? Would they now be saying what God has decreed to be wrong with how someone acts? Why would anyone have to justify their behavior if God is the one that decreed it? If God decreed it then would that not make it justifiable?
8. If we do what God has decreed of us by telling Calvinists they are in biblical error, then we would be doing what God wants us to do since we have been decreed to do that. And at the same time they would be telling us we are in biblical error and they would feel they would be doing what God wants them to do since they claim He decreed them to do that, which once again is making God decree things differently which is making God essentially decree against Himself. Who can believe it?
9. Their own theology (and their puppet-master view of God), is everything that we do is simply what God makes us do or forces us to do--including to not believe Calvinism. It’s God’s fault for having us to think the way we do about Reformed Theology, according to Reformers. I’m not sure why all our Calvinists friends are mad because people who believe differently than them are only doing what God decreed me and others to do. Was God wrong in decreeing us to be this way?
10. We are made in the image of God. How can we be made in the image of God if we are born sinners and how can our soul and spirit come from God if we are born sinners, i.e. child of the devil? What part of us is born totally depraved? What part of man is made in the image of God and what part of man is born in sin? Did God have some to be made in His image as children of the devil at birth?? What part of the devil is in His likeness and image according to Calvinist?
11. The logical conclusion to their doctrine is nothing more than utter blasphemy.
Scriptural refutation of Calvinism: The Bible tells us to diligently seek Him (Heb. 11:6). If we don’t have the ability to seek God, then why would the author of the book of Hebrews tell us to diligently seek Him? We are told to seek the Lord (Acts 17:27, Old Testament example, Deut. 4:29). Other passages that tells us to seek are Matthew 6:33 (seek the kingdom of God), Matthew 7:7 (seek and ye shall find).
How was the angel of God able to give Cornelius a vision telling him to send for Peter, and the Spirit telling Peter three men (I believe one of them being Cornelius) are said to have seeked after Peter (Acts 10:19), when the Spirit was not poured on Cornelius and his kin until after Peter got there (Acts 10:44)? If it takes a direct operation by the Spirit to seek God, then how did Cornelius do this before the Spirit fell on him and the other Gentiles, and gave them the abilities to speak in tongues?
If we are so depraved we can’t seek after God then why are there passages telling us to “come”? (Rev. 22:17, Matthew 11:28). If we don’t have the ability to choose since we are depraved then why are there passages telling us to choose? (OT: Deut. 30:9 “choose life”, Joshua 24:15 “choose you this day whom ye will serve”)
The Bible says Christ died for all men (1 John 2:2, 2 Cor. 5:15, etc etc). For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). He wants all to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). The limited atonement view believes He only died for the elect.
“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.” (Acts 7:51). We can, and we do have free will to resist.
There were some in the church of Galatia who were being warned what would happen if they leave Christ, or if they had already rejected Christ to return to the law of Moses, which caused them to have fallen from grace Gal. 5:3-4). I would say some had rejected Christ because Galatians 1:6 says “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel”, and I believe Paul was also warning the others of what would happen if they had done this. Some might say Gal. 5:3-4 doesn’t apply today since no one returns back to the law of Moses, but for our time the result would be the same to anyone who remove themselves from Christ. The result would be they fall from grace. (Gal. 5:4).
The Hebrews author said “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:29)
“Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God…” (Heb. 12:15)
Now, does this sound like the God of the Bible to you? Does the God of the Bible have us to be born sinners, damned in sin to the point we can’t believe, choose or seek Him unless God chooses us to be able? Does the God of the Bible unconditionally elect who will be saved and lost with no choice of their own? Did the God of the Bible have Jesus to die for all men or only the elect? Did He not give us free will to reject grace? Does the God of the Bible not warn us about the danger of apostasy?
Why even bother telling others to place faith in God if they don’t have the ability without God giving it to them? I strongly urge anyone who believes in Calvinism (Reformed Theology) to repent.
1. If Calvinism is correct and God decreed/ordained/predestined every single event to happen then that would mean He is directly and personally responsible for every rape, murder, liar, molester, thievery, idolater, drunkard, junkie, sorcerer, atheist, Satanist, terrorist, human genocide, etc etc. He would be responsible for every single evil that has ever walked the face of the planet…you name it…He decreed/ordained it to happen due to Calvinism. And that is utter blasphemy.
2. This doctrine is making God the author of evil/sin/wickedness. It’s a very ungodly doctrine that has people to be lost when they had no choice in the matter due to God purposefully choosing them to be lost. It makes God a respecter of persons and has Him being very unjust which is completely opposite of a loving and Holy God. On judgment day as they are being cast into the lake of fire, they should say “NOOOO!!! I DIDN’T HAVE A CHANCE!! It’s not MY fault!! YOU didn’t give ME the ABILITY to CHOOSE!!!” Calvinism’s God simply says “Tough…you can’t and couldn’t do a thing about it because those were the cards that were stacked against you and those are the cards that I dealt you.”
3. According to Calvinist nothing happens outside of God’s will and we can’t do anything outside of His will. Everything that happens is because it has been decreed before the world ever began. So, when a child gets molested is that God’s will? Is the molester doing the will of God by doing that sin that they were decreed to do? If the molester does not do that, then would the molester be going outside of God’s will that the molester was decreed to do? If a good Samaritan stops the molester or whoever else from doing a sin, then the good Samaritan that stops them would be going against what God has decreed the molester to do, or whoever else that is sinning. Such a sick and blasphemous doctrine.
4. How does anyone know what God has decreed if people are told to stop doing something when God has decreed it? Would a Christian be wrong for telling a sinner who was decreed by God to sin to stop sinning? Would the decree of God to have a Christian stop a sinner from sinning interfere or go outside God’s will with His decree to have a sinner commit sin? In other words their doctrine has God contradicting Himself in what He has decreed. This doctrine makes no sense at all.
5. Did God decree all of this to happen? Did He decree me to type and post this? If He did then is it wrong what I believe? If it is, then did God decree something wrong since I strongly disagree with Reformed Theology? If Calvinists disagree then were they decreed to disagree with what God decreed of me to believe? Everyone would be going against what God decrees according to Reformed Theology. If some are unconditionally chosen to have eternal life then why bother preaching the gospel? Why bother giving us the Bible? Why did Jesus have to die if some are already unconditionally saved?
6. If everything is predestined by God then why bother telling a sinner they are in the wrong since they are doing what God predestined, decreed, ordained them to do or believe in the first place?
7. The doctrine of Calvinism makes God into an evil tyrant that is unmerciful and is not the God of the Bible. Why would it matter to Calvinists how anyone acts if God has decreed/ordained them to act like that? Would they now be saying what God has decreed to be wrong with how someone acts? Why would anyone have to justify their behavior if God is the one that decreed it? If God decreed it then would that not make it justifiable?
8. If we do what God has decreed of us by telling Calvinists they are in biblical error, then we would be doing what God wants us to do since we have been decreed to do that. And at the same time they would be telling us we are in biblical error and they would feel they would be doing what God wants them to do since they claim He decreed them to do that, which once again is making God decree things differently which is making God essentially decree against Himself. Who can believe it?
9. Their own theology (and their puppet-master view of God), is everything that we do is simply what God makes us do or forces us to do--including to not believe Calvinism. It’s God’s fault for having us to think the way we do about Reformed Theology, according to Reformers. I’m not sure why all our Calvinists friends are mad because people who believe differently than them are only doing what God decreed me and others to do. Was God wrong in decreeing us to be this way?
10. We are made in the image of God. How can we be made in the image of God if we are born sinners and how can our soul and spirit come from God if we are born sinners, i.e. child of the devil? What part of us is born totally depraved? What part of man is made in the image of God and what part of man is born in sin? Did God have some to be made in His image as children of the devil at birth?? What part of the devil is in His likeness and image according to Calvinist?
11. The logical conclusion to their doctrine is nothing more than utter blasphemy.
Scriptural refutation of Calvinism: The Bible tells us to diligently seek Him (Heb. 11:6). If we don’t have the ability to seek God, then why would the author of the book of Hebrews tell us to diligently seek Him? We are told to seek the Lord (Acts 17:27, Old Testament example, Deut. 4:29). Other passages that tells us to seek are Matthew 6:33 (seek the kingdom of God), Matthew 7:7 (seek and ye shall find).
How was the angel of God able to give Cornelius a vision telling him to send for Peter, and the Spirit telling Peter three men (I believe one of them being Cornelius) are said to have seeked after Peter (Acts 10:19), when the Spirit was not poured on Cornelius and his kin until after Peter got there (Acts 10:44)? If it takes a direct operation by the Spirit to seek God, then how did Cornelius do this before the Spirit fell on him and the other Gentiles, and gave them the abilities to speak in tongues?
If we are so depraved we can’t seek after God then why are there passages telling us to “come”? (Rev. 22:17, Matthew 11:28). If we don’t have the ability to choose since we are depraved then why are there passages telling us to choose? (OT: Deut. 30:9 “choose life”, Joshua 24:15 “choose you this day whom ye will serve”)
The Bible says Christ died for all men (1 John 2:2, 2 Cor. 5:15, etc etc). For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). He wants all to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). The limited atonement view believes He only died for the elect.
“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.” (Acts 7:51). We can, and we do have free will to resist.
There were some in the church of Galatia who were being warned what would happen if they leave Christ, or if they had already rejected Christ to return to the law of Moses, which caused them to have fallen from grace Gal. 5:3-4). I would say some had rejected Christ because Galatians 1:6 says “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel”, and I believe Paul was also warning the others of what would happen if they had done this. Some might say Gal. 5:3-4 doesn’t apply today since no one returns back to the law of Moses, but for our time the result would be the same to anyone who remove themselves from Christ. The result would be they fall from grace. (Gal. 5:4).
The Hebrews author said “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:29)
“Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God…” (Heb. 12:15)
Now, does this sound like the God of the Bible to you? Does the God of the Bible have us to be born sinners, damned in sin to the point we can’t believe, choose or seek Him unless God chooses us to be able? Does the God of the Bible unconditionally elect who will be saved and lost with no choice of their own? Did the God of the Bible have Jesus to die for all men or only the elect? Did He not give us free will to reject grace? Does the God of the Bible not warn us about the danger of apostasy?
Why even bother telling others to place faith in God if they don’t have the ability without God giving it to them? I strongly urge anyone who believes in Calvinism (Reformed Theology) to repent.
Either way you are wrong because you continually misrepresent. To hear you tell
it, even those given to Jesus will not come. Gosh. You could not be more wrong.
And LOL at your "it was indeed personal." You ought to make up your mind.
God's drawing is very much personal; you have been informed of this many times, at which you mock and scoff.
You are very much like the one who bragged about speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
it, even those given to Jesus will not come. Gosh. You could not be more wrong.
And LOL at your "it was indeed personal." You ought to make up your mind.
God's drawing is very much personal; you have been informed of this many times, at which you mock and scoff.
You are very much like the one who bragged about speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
Well we agree on something today. 
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I am trying to solve a Math problem. I can't work it out on my own, so I ask a teacher to help me understand the basic principles I need to know to make sense of the problem and solve it. I learn from them and solve the problem. They granted me understanding by giving me the information I needed to achieve the result. This is how repentance is granted, by God clarifying to us the principles that make repentance possible for us to do. The teacher does not just bypass my own searching out and download mathematical principles into my mind. She helps me understand the principles, probably using text book. The Holy Spirit does not just bypass my own searching out and download repentance into me. He helps me understand the basic principles of the gospel, probably using the Bible.
There is nothing incompatible with us asking God to grant someone repentance and faith, and believing that the person prayed for needs also to seek truth themselves.
There is nothing incompatible with us asking God to grant someone repentance and faith, and believing that the person prayed for needs also to seek truth themselves.
[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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