Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Why would that "engender serious theological implications", if Jesus is talking about bringing all people before Him for judgment and reward at the last day, both the good and the wicked? Which He will do, according to scripture?

You're assuming he's talking about "all people" in the distributive sense. Whereas the context requires 'all people" to mean "all w/o distinction.

Since your assuming, that God draws all to the Son w/o exception, then there had better be NO EXCEPTIONS. God is drawing infants, babies, young children, the mentally handicapped, the comatose, etc. to his Son? Also, you're assuming that the Gospel has reached every crook and cranny and corner of this globe or that Gospel is permitted to be preached in every country in the world.

Also, if God is drawing all w/o exception, then Jesus has lost the vast majority of those whom the Father has given. And since this would be the case, this means the Son disobeyed his Father's will, making Him a sinner! He's anything but the spotless Lamb of God without blemish.

 

[Rufus]

Acts 26:14
And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

The Lord had been after Paul for a long time. We just see the brick wall The Lord Jesus used.

I use Paul and the calvies as an analogy. If the Lord would give em a good slap........They have tons of knowledge to ADVANCE His Gospel, rather than hinder it at every turn.

And it took a supernatural act of God to remove the veil from Paul's eyes, didn't it? Paul didn't believe the Gospel until God efficaciously acted upon Paul.

 

[Rufus]

The more I read you the more it seems all you really have is empty rhetoric.

Nothing I said in my post to which you replied was unbiblical. Perhaps the emptiness you perceive is much closer home to you than you care to admit.

 

[Rufus]

studier said:


This is another example of why I don’t use the NIV. You have emphasized the word “CANNOT” but the Text does not specifically say they CANNOT see. More later.

Oh...so Satan only blinds partially? Some can see while others cannot? Or do all the blind have some sight? Where does it say that in the 2Cor 4?

 

[Rufus]

Sure, what I posted from John15 shows I'm stuck in the OC. Obeying Him and living out love for one another has no practical meaning in this era, I suppose...

All done with this discussion, thanks. Jesus in J15 is clear enough for me. There's more He says, but you can search it out yourself if interested. The fact that it took you several posts to note a single Scripture that actually uses the word "friend" translated properly is telling enough that you should be thinking about making empty allegations. I don't think you have such a filter.

And how does Jesus' teaching in Jn 15 conflict with God's efficacious grace in his NC promises? Loving God is not enough to qualify as a friend? Obeying him is not enough to qualify? Remaining loyal to him is not enough to qualify?

You also fail to understand that Jesus didn't plumb the depths of the Gospel or the New Covenant during his earthly ministry. That would come later after Pentecost in the various epistles in the NT. You obviously have forgotten that Jesus also told his disciples that he had many more things to reveal to them but they could not bear them at that time of his first advent! Therefore, John 15 alone should be understood in the context of the Old Covenant in which his ministry was grounded, and understood more thoroughly and accurately in the context of the unilateral NC promises in the OT and after the apostles provided deeper insights to the Church into the Gospel and the New Covenant.

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus re: 2Cor3-4 cont'd

Firstly, why do you skip some of the foundational context of 2Cor4? I’ll begin in 2Cor3

For clarity I’m going to focus on Paul and will later pick up Timothy (Silvanus is also mentioned but I’m not focusing on this):

3:6 God made Paul sufficient/qualified [as a] servant/minister of the NC of [the] Spirit – the Spirit gives life

• This is important for 4:6

There were 2 ministries/administrations going on in Paul’s time:

• Moses’ ministry:
  • Written on stones 3:7
  • A ministry of death 3:7
  • Glorious but passing away 3:7
  • Condemnation 3:9a
  • Moses veiled his face so Israel could not stare at the end of his ministry’s glory that was passing away 3:13
  • The minds/thoughts of [some of] Israel were hardened – the same veil remained and was being laid on their hearts when the OC (Moses) was read 3:14a, 3:15
• The Spirit’s ministry:
  • The spirit gives life 3:6
  • Will be more glorious than Moses’ ministry 3:8
  • A greater, remaining ministry of righteousness 3:9b, 3:10b, 3:11b
  • Paul employed much boldness because he had hope/confidence in the NC ministry of the life-giving Spirit 3:12
  • The Mosaic veil is made powerless in/by Christ – the veil is removed when [a man] turns to the Lord 3:14b, 3:16
  • The Lord is the Spirit – where the Spirit the Lord [is] Freedom [is]! 3:17
  • Christians:
    • Have had their face unveiled when they actively turned to Christ and became Christian
    • Are looking at/contemplating the Lord’s glory as in a mirror
    • Are being transformed into the same image
      • from glory into glory
      • As from the Lord the Spirit

Please note that the only mention of conversion is when a man actively turns to the Lord. When a man turns to the Lord, the veil is wiped out & removed, the new Christian has Freedom in Christ, is contemplating the Lord’s glory as in a mirror, and is being transformed into the same image.

Then 2Cor4 Paul’s ministry of the NC life-giving Spirit and all that the Christian has in Christ when he turns to the Lord:

• Paul has this ministry – he has received mercy – he does not lose heart – he has renounced shameful hidden things – he is not walking in cleverness – he is not falsifying/adulterating God’s Word/Message – in God’s presence he is disclosing the truth and thereby presenting himself to each conscience of men 4:1-2
  • Even if Paul’s Gospel (God’s Word/Message) has been veiled – it has [only] been veiled in the [men] who are perishing = those unbelieving men whose minds/thoughts were blinded (see above highlighted info under Moses ministry 3:14a, 3:15) by the god of that age so the light/enlightenment of the Gospel of the glory of Christ – who is the image of God – does not shine forth 4:3-4
  • To make clear 4:1-4: because [the Creator] God shone in Paul’s heart toward the goal of enlightenment of the knowledge of God’s glory in Christ’s face 4:6 - Paul says he is proclaiming Christ Jesus Lord – he is not proclaiming himself – on behalf of Jesus he is the slave of those he proclaims Christ Jesus Lord to 4:5

As I understand you, you’ve made this an example of how God according to your highlighted NIV MADE HIS light shine in our hearts. In light of your presuppositions this must be God dragging sinners to salvation as you say “No sinner participates in, or helps with, or cooperates or facilitates that work of God.”

Yet in the clear context of this section of Scripture:

• Paul says [unbelievers] actively turn to the Lord – this does NOT say they are passively turned to the Lord by someone or something else. This is human response to the enlightenment contained in the Gospel of Christ’s Glory. If we're going to discuss human choice and response, we can do so right here.
• Because of what God did in their hearts to enlighten them of the knowledge of Christ’s glory 4:6 – Paul and Timothy are proclaiming Christ Jesus Lord 4:5
  • So, 4:6 explains the cause for Paul’s proclaiming in 4:5. It does not explain what God does to every unbeliever as He did to Paul. There is some discussion to be had here, but it is not from your presupposition of men do nothing as Paul clearly explains in 2Cor3.
    • Going back to 3:6: Paul says God made them qualified as ministers of the NC ministry of the Spirit. 4:6 explains how.
    • If we want to see the miracle that took place with Paul, we can read in Acts about the Lord’s shining a great light at Paul and explaining who He is. Paul later taught Timothy per 2Tim2
• It is Paul’s proclamation of God’s Word/Message – the truth – the enlightening Gospel – that enlightens men – God is shining the enlightenment/light of the Gospel to enlighten the hearts and minds of men through men to men.

You’re forcing the language to go beyond what it says. The NIV is not helping you read this Text accurately.

You’re also negating what the Text clearly says in context about [some] men actively turning to the Lord. God enlightens with His Gospel and [some] men respond – they turn to the Lord. Your reference to John3 is helpful when both types of men are considered.

God very specifically enlightened men like Paul in the first century. He graced Paul with a great light, with His audible voice, with the enlightening explanation of who He is. His enlightening Gospel message has been proclaimed since then.

You seem intent on lessening the power and light contained in God’s Word – God’s Message – God’s Gospel of the glory of Christ Jesus Lord – the NC ministry of the life-giving Spirit.

My, my...it doesn't take you very long to get off to a rocky start does it? So, did Paul have a multiple personality disorder and that's why the text literally says "He has made US competent as ministers of a new covenant"? Or did Paul have a mouse or two in his pocket when he penned those words? If not either of these, then who are the "us" in the verse? Or who are "them" that you eventually get around to acknowledging late in your post?

 

[Kroogz]

And it took a supernatural act of God to remove the veil from Paul's eyes, didn't it? Paul didn't believe the Gospel until God efficaciously acted upon Paul.

Ok. That is why Paul never preached and pushed the Gospel Of the Lord Jesus Christ to unbelievers. He knew it was futile to preach the Gospel.

WAKE UP.

 

[PaulThomson]

You're assuming he's talking about "all people" in the distributive sense. Whereas the context requires 'all people" to mean "all w/o distinction.

Since your assuming, that God draws all to the Son w/o exception, then there had better be NO EXCEPTIONS. God is drawing infants, babies, young children, the mentally handicapped, the comatose, etc. to his Son? Also, you're assuming that the Gospel has reached every crook and cranny and corner of this globe or that Gospel is permitted to be preached in every country in the world.

Also, if God is drawing all w/o exception, then Jesus has lost the vast majority of those whom the Father has given. And since this would be the case, this means the Son disobeyed his Father's will, making Him a sinner! He's anything but the spotless Lamb of God without blemish.

Yes. ALL infants, babies, young children, the mentally handicapped, the comatose, etc. Jesus WILL draw to Himself, resurrecting them and bringing them to judgement or reward?

Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Co 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[PaulThomson]

Also, you're assuming that the Gospel has reached every crook and cranny and corner of this globe or that Gospel is permitted to be preached in every country in the world.

If Jesus will draw all to himself means that submitting to crucifixion would entitle Jesus to resurrect and judge all people, as I am reasonably proposing, this text does not require 1. the Gospel to have reached every nook and cranny and corner of this globe, nor 2. that the Gospel must be preached in every country of the world.

I must say that your point 2 seems redundant.

Also, if God is drawing all w/o exception, then Jesus has lost the vast majority of those whom the Father has given. And since this would be the case, this means the Son disobeyed his Father's will, making Him a sinner! He's anything but the spotless Lamb of God without blemish.

If Jesus does raise all to judgment or reward, He will have lost no one from those whom the Father was going to give to Him to be their judge at the last day. You really don't seem to have a grasp of what people are saying to you, nor how think logically.

 

[PaulThomson]

My, my...it doesn't take you very long to get off to a rocky start does it? So, did Paul have a multiple personality disorder and that's why the text literally says "He has made US competent as ministers of a new covenant"? Or did Paul have a mouse or two in his pocket when he penned those words? If not either of these, then who are the "us" in the verse? Or who are "them" that you eventually get around to acknowledging late in your post?

Logically, "us" would refer to Paul AND the other mature teachers who helped Paul teach the Corinthians the gospel and how to apply it to their lives.

 

[Mem]

If Jesus does raise all to judgment or reward, He will have lost no one from those whom the Father was going to give to Him to be their judge at the last day. You really don't seem to have a grasp of what people are saying to you, nor how think logically.

Certainly, no one will be able to "slip by" Him.

 

[studier]

Nothing I said in my post to which you replied was unbiblical

Not much of an argument.

 

[LeeLoving]

I might be ignorant, but some seed fell into good ground... if you're worried if you or someone else is elect I suppose time will tell. Jesus is real though.

 

[studier]

Oh...so Satan only blinds partially? Some can see while others cannot? Or do all the blind have some sight? Where does it say that in the 2Cor 4?

Just showing what the Text says and doesn't say. It's actually important to read it accurately and let Him guide us into all truth apart from our eisegesis and traditions. If/when I make an error in reading it exactly as it meant to be translated it'll take more than your tradition and rhetoric to assist in finding the accuracy.

DBY 2 Timothy 2:15 Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth.

NKJ 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

NET 2 Timothy 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.

ESV 2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

NAS 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.

NKJ James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

Some of us have contemplated and prayerfully considered these Scriptures deeply, Rufus.

I'm comfortable I can show you what the Text says and provide insight and resources to reveal the decisions a translator must make. If you want to remain where you are and deal with the WORD and Christians as you do, that's between you and our Lord, as it is with all of us. Some of us can see your m.o. When it gets to the point where we're dealing with the Text to see what it actually says, you resort to fallacious methods and harsh rhetoric and outright ignoring detailed work in the Text.

I did a little personal test of dealing with you over the past week or so. At first, I stripped out your rhetoric and attempted to remain with the Text. Then I let myself flow with actually paying attention to all you say, Shirley, and respond to more of it - the rhetoric. It doesn't take long to end up in the gutter brawling and being distracted from the Text. It seems to me this is where you like to function. But being distracted from the Text combined with dealing with an interpretation that limits the power and light of God's Good News of His Son is beyond problematic. I don't normally use words like "insidious" but I understand why some do.

So, back to the Text. What's being blinded in 2Cor3-4? What's become hardened?

 

[studier]

And how does Jesus' teaching in Jn 15 conflict with God's efficacious grace in his NC promises?

What's efficacious grace? Define your terminology openly if you'd like a response.

You also fail to understand that Jesus didn't plumb the depths of the Gospel or the New Covenant during his earthly ministry.

I disagree and am comfortable I can contribute to a real discussion on the topic.

I see no need to continue after these opening sentences.

 

[studier]

My, my...it doesn't take you very long to get off to a rocky start does it? So, did Paul have a multiple personality disorder and that's why the text literally says "He has made US competent as ministers of a new covenant"? Or did Paul have a mouse or two in his pocket when he penned those words? If not either of these, then who are the "us" in the verse? Or who are "them" that you eventually get around to acknowledging late in your post?

Gutter rhetoric. I explained the wording "us".

 

[studier]

I might be ignorant, but some seed fell into good ground..

Seems simple enough to understand apart from presuppositions causing problems.... Thank you for the input.

 

[Rufus]

Ok. That is why Paul never preached and pushed the Gospel Of the Lord Jesus Christ to unbelievers. He knew it was futile to preach the Gospel.

WAKE UP.

Take your own advice and heal yourself, Mr. Physician! Paul's very personal salvation experience actually served to compel him to preach the Gospel to the lost because he knew that at the end of the day, it is God who gives the increase as he sees fit. The salvation of any soul is not ultimately caused by a preacher, teacher or evangelist any more than by a repentant sinner who self-effectuated it by his "freewill" decision to believe the Gospel.

 

[Rufus]

Gutter rhetoric. I explained the wording "us".

Sure you did in a slipshod manner.

 

[Kroogz]

Take your own advice and heal yourself, Mr. Physician! Paul's very personal salvation experience actually served to compel him to preach the Gospel to the lost because he knew that at the end of the day, it is God who gives the increase as he sees fit. The salvation of any soul is not ultimately caused by a preacher, teacher or evangelist any more than by a repentant sinner who self-effectuated it by his "freewill" decision to believe the Gospel.

So why don't you? Can you point me to a post that you or anyone with your point of view has a gospel message to an unbeliever?