Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

But many positive things are said in scripture about Abraham, aren't there? In fact, God held him in such high esteem he promised to make the patriarch the father of many nations and that many nations would be blessed by his seed (Christ). Is not Abraham not the spiritual father of all believers? How come Adam isn't if he was such a great man of faith?

In fact, I'm surprised that you would cast aspersions upon Abraham since he is spoken of so highly in scripture, being accorded the great honor of being called God's "friend" (Isa 41:8; 2Chron 20:7; Jas 2:23). But where are the positive accolades for Adam?

And I can't be convinced of your position because it sends up too many red flags. Your theory presents too many unprecedented things going on in the post-fall account that make me uncomfortable. If God saved Adam apart from faith, that would be unprecedented. But if you say that God saved Adam due to his faith, then we'd need chapter and verse on that, etc, etc.

And then we do have Job's inspired commentary that Adam hid his transgression, and that would have been very displeasing to God.

Or can we find any text in the bible wherein God "drives" his faithful people out of the land? God has always driven his and/or Israel's enemies out of the land or...out of God's temple as Jesus did with his Father's enemies. The fact that God drove Adam out from the garden AND omitted Eve from his decree speaks volumes -- at least to me. Yes...Eve left the Garden with Adam...but that was her temporal punishment -- not eternal!

I'm not casting aspersions on Abraham. He was saved just like us all, he did nothing to deserve the favor of God, and likely sinned just like every other Christian. If you want someone to esteem, I suggest Jesus.
Many of the arguments are making are from silence or are trying to conform scripture to a particular view. But scripture is written to gradually reveal understanding over time. The absence of faith doesn't preclude faith. It can simply mean that God isn't making faith the focus of the passage. Grace isn't mentioned either, but God certainly exercised grace towards Adam in clothing him. Likewise, in the case of Noah, faith is not mentioned because God desired to focus on grace. Was faith present? Of course, because faith is always an element of genuine salvation. But it is not highlighted because God is giving understanding gradually.
The example of removing someone from a particular geographical location is to me spurious at best. Israel was often removed from the land. God allowed them to return to favor and to the land.
Your last point seems much more assumed to me than actual. God did the same for Adam as He did for Eve. I believe they are in the same estate both physically and spiritually.

 

[Cameron143]

I do not know what you think faith is....
But, it's probably not as simple as the Bible makes it to be.
It's probably faith + something you deem equally important.

Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17​

Abraham simply heard the Word, and he believed it.
Abraham had faith for that reason. What he believed = faith.
What Abraham believed was his 'faith!'

All other things Abraham did that might have been wrong did not disqualify him from being called 'the friend of God.' James 2:21-23

I never said differently.

 

[Genez]

Mankind was created as flesh and blood and that represents a problem.

Can flesh and blood eat from the the tree of life and live for ever?

An important question then persists.

How come we ate from the wrong tree?

Was Adam's mistake in choosing the wrong fruit or was the tree of life not attractive enough?

We need to summon Adam because He knows.

If Adam never fell?
Eating from the Tree of Life would have been expected by God.

Flesh and blood as we now know it is no good.

After finishing what He created, God called everything, "very good."
That included un-fallen Adam!

 

[Cameron143]

But a remnant cannot logically be 100% of the population. But according to your theory, 100% of the human race was saved right after the Fall -- making that unprecedented.

50% isn't a remnant either. A remnant is a very small part. Being very gracious is alot like God, however.

 

[Inquisitor]

If Adam never fell?
Eating from the Tree of Life would have been expected by God.

Flesh and blood as we now know it is no good.

After finishing what He created, God called everything, "very good."
That included un-fallen Adam!

Adam was not perfect but merely good.

Is good, good enough?

 

[Inquisitor]

But many positive things are said in scripture about Abraham, aren't there? In fact, God held him in such high esteem he promised to make the patriarch the father of many nations and that many nations would be blessed by his seed (Christ). Is not Abraham not the spiritual father of all believers? How come Adam isn't if he was such a great man of faith?

In fact, I'm surprised that you would cast aspersions upon Abraham since he is spoken of so highly in scripture, being accorded the great honor of being called God's "friend" (Isa 41:8; 2Chron 20:7; Jas 2:23). But where are the positive accolades for Adam?

And I can't be convinced of your position because it sends up too many red flags. Your theory presents too many unprecedented things going on in the post-fall account that make me uncomfortable. If God saved Adam apart from faith, that would be unprecedented. But if you say that God saved Adam due to his faith, then we'd need chapter and verse on that, etc, etc.

And then we do have Job's inspired commentary that Adam hid his transgression, and that would have been very displeasing to God.

Or can we find any text in the bible wherein God "drives" his faithful people out of the land? God has always driven his and/or Israel's enemies out of the land or...out of God's temple as Jesus did with his Father's enemies. The fact that God drove Adam out from the garden AND omitted Eve from his decree speaks volumes -- at least to me. Yes...Eve left the Garden with Adam...but that was her temporal punishment -- not eternal!

But Abraham and Sarah were decidedly imperfect. They disobeyed, made mistakes, questioned God,
and even laughed at God. Still, God chose to bless them in spite of this.

No one is righteous.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul explains the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15.

The gospel concerns the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Who and how God saves anyone is not the gospel, more so, an attempt to explain election.

We know definitely that John the Baptist was predestined but Jesus said that John the Baptist.
Was least in the kingdom of Heaven and anyone who believes in Jesus is greater than John.

Please explain?

1 Cor 15 is the Gospel, some of it, and TULIP is also

 

[Rufus]

What was walking around?

I see you don't know the difference between personal and impersonal pronouns either.

 

[Rufus]

But Abraham and Sarah were decidedly imperfect. They disobeyed, made mistakes, questioned God,
and even laughed at God. Still, God chose to bless them in spite of this.

No one is righteous.

I never said any human being was perfect, save for Christ. But thanks for your attempted correction.

P.S. Thankfully, Abraham (and no doubt Sarah) both had Christ's righteousness imputed to them -- which is far, far more than what Adam received from God's hand.

 

[Genez]

Adam was not perfect but merely good.

Is good, good enough?

Are you calling what God said was very good? Something other?

 

[Genez]

I never said any human being was perfect, save for Christ. But thanks for your attempted correction.

P.S. Thankfully, Abraham (and no doubt Sarah) both had Christ's righteousness imputed to them -- which is far, far more than what Adam received from God's hand.

How could Abraham receive what Adam did from God's hand?
When, Abraham was born already having it?

 

[Rufus]

I'm not casting aspersions on Abraham. He was saved just like us all, he did nothing to deserve the favor of God, and likely sinned just like every other Christian. If you want someone to esteem, I suggest Jesus.
Many of the arguments are making are from silence or are trying to conform scripture to a particular view. But scripture is written to gradually reveal understanding over time. The absence of faith doesn't preclude faith. It can simply mean that God isn't making faith the focus of the passage. Grace isn't mentioned either, but God certainly exercised grace towards Adam in clothing him. Likewise, in the case of Noah, faith is not mentioned because God desired to focus on grace. Was faith present? Of course, because faith is always an element of genuine salvation. But it is not highlighted because God is giving understanding gradually.
The example of removing someone from a particular geographical location is to me spurious at best. Israel was often removed from the land. God allowed them to return to favor and to the land.
Your last point seems much more assumed to me than actual. God did the same for Adam as He did for Eve. I believe they are in the same estate both physically and spiritually.

He removed Israel because they became God's enemies through their covenant-breaking apostasy. BUT...each time they have returned to the land, haven't they? So...my argument about Adam being evicted from the Garden is legit, most especially since Adam only was the specific target of that eviction. It follows logically and is consistent with a large body of scriptures that God cannot dwell with sinners who are his enemies. And from where I sit Adam was no friend of God. But if you see Adam as this glorious saint (or even as a "hero" as one here does), then good for you.

Just remember one thing: God TESTED A&E in their Garden. And what specifically did he TEST? Their FAITH! God gave Adam the command and warned him what would happen if he didn't believe God. Even Satan tried to discredit God's integrity, didn't he? If you can't see all this, then I can't help you.

And how you can believe A&E were on equal footing is beyond me. I asked you a long time ago, and I'll ask again: Under whose Seed does Adam fall? You can't say Eve's because Adam didn't descend from her. And of course, you'd be loathe to say the Serpent's seed for obvious reasons. So...you're left with coming up with a third option: Maybe God forgot about Adam altogether? Or God placed Adam under someone's else seed? Or maybe God decided that Adam didn't need to be "pigeon-holed" like Eve was. Dealer's Choice.







And no, I'm not making arguments from silence. There is much to contrast between Eve and Adam, and I stated earlier

 

[Genez]

I see you don't know the difference between personal and impersonal pronouns either.

I know the difference...

 

[Rufus]

How could Abraham receive what Adam did from God's hand?
When, Abraham was born already having it?

You twisted my words around. I didn't ask about what Abraham but what Adam received. Did Adam received Christ's imputed righteousness as Abraham did? Then give me chapter and verse.

 

[Rufus]

I know the difference...

Not according to what you posted.

 

[Genez]

You twisted my words around. I didn't ask about what Abraham but what Adam received. Did Adam received Christ's imputed righteousness as Abraham did? Then give me chapter and verse.

Did Adam reject the Lord after the Lord shed blood to give him animal skins to cover himself with?
Adam had faith to the extent faith was known at that time..

 

[Genez]

Not according to what you posted.

You have a correlation problem...
Literalist's deficiency syndrome.

If someone is feeling blue?
That means they are touching something that is blue?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You twisted my words around. I didn't ask about what Abraham but what Adam received. Did Adam received Christ's imputed righteousness as Abraham did? Then give me chapter and verse.

I think it can be reasonably inferred that Adam had full knowledge of the gospel. He was one sin away from perfection and had the mind of God. He was god-like and the greatest man who has ever existed besides Christ. God would have revealed the gospel to him in vivid detail. That revelation was passed down among the sons of God until Abraham was able to receive it from Noah and/or Shem, who lived not far from where Abraham journeyed to from Mesopotamia. That is why Abraham had such remarkable faith.

 

[Cameron143]

He removed Israel because they became God's enemies through their covenant-breaking apostasy. BUT...each time they have returned to the land, haven't they? So...my argument about Adam being evicted from the Garden is legit, most especially since Adam only was the specific target of that eviction. It follows logically and is consistent with a large body of scriptures that God cannot dwell with sinners who are his enemies. And from where I sit Adam was no friend of God. But if you see Adam as this glorious saint (or even as a "hero" as one here does), then good for you.

Just remember one thing: God TESTED A&E in their Garden. And what specifically did he TEST? Their FAITH! God gave Adam the command and warned him what would happen if he didn't believe God. Even Satan tried to discredit God's integrity, didn't he? If you can't see all this, then I can't help you.

And how you can believe A&E were on equal footing is beyond me. I asked you a long time ago, and I'll ask again: Under whose Seed does Adam fall? You can't say Eve's because Adam didn't descend from her. And of course, you'd be loathe to say the Serpent's seed for obvious reasons. So...you're left with coming up with a third option: Maybe God forgot about Adam altogether? Or God placed Adam under someone's else seed? Or maybe God decided that Adam didn't need to be "pigeon-holed" like Eve was. Dealer's Choice.







And no, I'm not making arguments from silence. There is much to contrast between Eve and Adam, and I stated earlier

The seed of the woman is Christ. No one is ever spoken of as in Eve. I believe Adam was saved and in Christ. Same as Eve.
Second, I don't see anyone as a super saint. No reason to make unwarranted attributions. If I don't overly esteem Abraham who has a body of acts, I certainly wouldn't esteem Adam who has a limited number.
As far as God not able to be with sinful enemies, Satan seems to have had access to heaven until shortly before the cross. What do you make of that?

 

[dougcho]

My critique of Calvinism is not some personal agenda.

Perhaps you might tell us ...
the main reason why you don't believe in Calvinism?