Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the only law that places someone under grace. It cannot be achieved any other way, and it is alone through Christ who sets someone free from the law of sin and death. Christ alone causes it but only for the elect. That's what makes it by grace.
The keeping of the LAW for salvation, is by its definition, works
The keeping of the LAW for salvation, is by its definition, works
First of all, the files I put together over the last 30 years or so are basically topical files that contain miscellaneous notes amassed over those years with scripture references and/or quotes.
Now...whether or not God saves "all" children, I cannot give a definitive answer except to say that the biblical evidence suggests that God does. For example, I see Jesus using a double entendre in Mat 18:14 (i.e. "little ones or little children literally and figuratively that would include all believers). When Jesus said his Father "is not willing that ANY of these little ones should perish", it's difficult to not logically infer that Jesus meant that literally, especially since Deut 1:39 illustrates this truth.
What's so important to grasp about the Deut passage is the Land. The Land is both a type of kingdom of God/Heaven and even more importantly a type of Christ himself. So...when God decreed judgment on virtually the entire generation He redeemed from Egypt, he at the same time decreed "salvation" for all the youngsters whom that sinful generation had begat either in Egypt or in the wilderness. Those youngsters, as they grew older, eventually entered the Kingdom when they entered the Land. They found their "rest" in the Land, and in so doing found their ultimate rest in the Lord.
Also, king David seem quite assured, that after God took his son away from him, that he would be reunited with him in death (2Sam 12:22-23).
Anyway...the "any" in Mat 18:14 and "all" the underage in Deut 1:39 is pretty solid evidence. And there's no reason to understand the text as saying that God allowed only a certain number of youngsters to enter, e.g. - some, few, many, most. There's nothing in the text to suggest a limited number.
Another important takeaway from both Mat 18 and Deut 1 is God's will (or decree) is front and center in both passages. The Deut text says, "they WILL take possession of it". No, "ands", ifs", buts" or 'ors"
Another big takeaway is that God's decree in Deut is unilateral! Those youngsters who didn't know good from evil had nothing to say about the matter! The "pots" destiny (who became God's children OF PROMISE!) was determined solely by the Potter. In fact, Deut 1:39 reminds me of Rom 9:11 that deals with two children before they were born -- and did anything good or bad. God dealt with the Exodus children in a very similar way -- i.e. BEFORE any of them had any real knowledge of good and evil.
And finally, we should not miss that God's will (decree) pertaining to these Exodus children was efficacious. God made good on his promise; for he was with the children of Israel every step of the way during their sojourn into the Land.
A lot more could be said since this text and all its historical fulfillment are bursting at the soteriological seams with precious truths -- predestination, election, preservation of the saints, possession of the Land (Christ), etc., but it's getting late.
I look forward to your critique.
Now...whether or not God saves "all" children, I cannot give a definitive answer except to say that the biblical evidence suggests that God does. For example, I see Jesus using a double entendre in Mat 18:14 (i.e. "little ones or little children literally and figuratively that would include all believers). When Jesus said his Father "is not willing that ANY of these little ones should perish", it's difficult to not logically infer that Jesus meant that literally, especially since Deut 1:39 illustrates this truth.
What's so important to grasp about the Deut passage is the Land. The Land is both a type of kingdom of God/Heaven and even more importantly a type of Christ himself. So...when God decreed judgment on virtually the entire generation He redeemed from Egypt, he at the same time decreed "salvation" for all the youngsters whom that sinful generation had begat either in Egypt or in the wilderness. Those youngsters, as they grew older, eventually entered the Kingdom when they entered the Land. They found their "rest" in the Land, and in so doing found their ultimate rest in the Lord.
Also, king David seem quite assured, that after God took his son away from him, that he would be reunited with him in death (2Sam 12:22-23).
Anyway...the "any" in Mat 18:14 and "all" the underage in Deut 1:39 is pretty solid evidence. And there's no reason to understand the text as saying that God allowed only a certain number of youngsters to enter, e.g. - some, few, many, most. There's nothing in the text to suggest a limited number.
Another important takeaway from both Mat 18 and Deut 1 is God's will (or decree) is front and center in both passages. The Deut text says, "they WILL take possession of it". No, "ands", ifs", buts" or 'ors"
Another big takeaway is that God's decree in Deut is unilateral! Those youngsters who didn't know good from evil had nothing to say about the matter! The "pots" destiny (who became God's children OF PROMISE!) was determined solely by the Potter. In fact, Deut 1:39 reminds me of Rom 9:11 that deals with two children before they were born -- and did anything good or bad. God dealt with the Exodus children in a very similar way -- i.e. BEFORE any of them had any real knowledge of good and evil.
And finally, we should not miss that God's will (decree) pertaining to these Exodus children was efficacious. God made good on his promise; for he was with the children of Israel every step of the way during their sojourn into the Land.
A lot more could be said since this text and all its historical fulfillment are bursting at the soteriological seams with precious truths -- predestination, election, preservation of the saints, possession of the Land (Christ), etc., but it's getting late.
I look forward to your critique.
Yes, but in addition, I think that there is also the law of works - that is, the doing of works is a law unto itself, which law, all who come into this world fall under until saved - bringing eternal judgment, because it is the antithesis of Christ, and Christ alone brings salvation. It exists within all natural, unsaved man and causes the desire to work for salvation
[Rom 3:26-27 KJV]
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[Rom 3:26-27 KJV]
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
I never said what you are claiming. But the LAW is ultimately defined by loving God and our neighbors which is giving Grace to our neighbors. You are stuck on how you have defined the LAW and GRACE but the Prophets explain how the LAW and GRACE are similar just in different ways. Jesus is GRACE but He is the LAW fulfilled because they are shadows of one another.
-
1
- Show all
You see the LAW isn't about works like you believe it is. It's about a way of life that's different from the rest of humanity.
Following Jesus is not about works either but about a way of life that's different from humanity.
You have falsely defined the LAW as a works system when it's merely a WAY OF LIFE that's different from humanity much like being a Follower of Christ is a way of life that's different from humanity.
Following Jesus is not about works either but about a way of life that's different from humanity.
You have falsely defined the LAW as a works system when it's merely a WAY OF LIFE that's different from humanity much like being a Follower of Christ is a way of life that's different from humanity.
Mercy and Grace are FREE given to anyone who will accept from God.
But thinking that the LAW is a works system is inaccurate. It's about a way of life that God wanted His people to live by that was different than the rest of humanity. It's why the LAW is called the "FORMER or SHADOW" of things to come.
But thinking that the LAW is a works system is inaccurate. It's about a way of life that God wanted His people to live by that was different than the rest of humanity. It's why the LAW is called the "FORMER or SHADOW" of things to come.
You can't really understand Jesus to understand what He has completely fulfilled. You understand the general outline but the actual bullet points is beyond the doctrine most Reformed have no knowledge about. You have been taught it's not for today so you ignore it. However, Jesus said the one who teaches the LAW is the greatest in Heaven because it's not about works but about a former lifestyle for God's people that reflects how being a Christian is a current lifestyle that is different from the rest of humanity.
Jesus said the LAW won't end until Heaven and earth pass. That hasn't happened yet.
Jesus said the LAW won't end until Heaven and earth pass. That hasn't happened yet.
-
1
- Show all
God elected us by sending Jesus to die for our sins,
God elected us by giving prophets and people to witness to us.
God elects us by giving the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin.
God elected us by giving us the word to know His will.
God elects us by sending trials and blessings.
God elected us by the witness of nature.
God elects us by the witness of people that love us.
But even with all of these gifts and witnesses to save us we are not forced to love God.
Forced love is not real. We have a choice.
God elected us by giving prophets and people to witness to us.
God elects us by giving the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin.
God elected us by giving us the word to know His will.
God elects us by sending trials and blessings.
God elected us by the witness of nature.
God elects us by the witness of people that love us.
But even with all of these gifts and witnesses to save us we are not forced to love God.
Forced love is not real. We have a choice.
-
1
- Show all
Yes agree.
Rom 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
I personally find that Roms 7 is good at explaining our condition.
Walking in the flesh = disobedience and sin.
Walking in the Spirit lead to obedience and life.
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5-6
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Gal 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The law is Spiritual and to walk in the Spirit results in obedience to the Law.
This battle between the flesh and Spirit is not pre destined and we are not forced to follow one side.
We must choose if we will walk in the Spirit or follow the flesh..
Rom 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
I personally find that Roms 7 is good at explaining our condition.
Walking in the flesh = disobedience and sin.
Walking in the Spirit lead to obedience and life.
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5-6
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Gal 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The law is Spiritual and to walk in the Spirit results in obedience to the Law.
This battle between the flesh and Spirit is not pre destined and we are not forced to follow one side.
We must choose if we will walk in the Spirit or follow the flesh..
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Indeed, the Law itself will not end until Heaven and earth pass. However, for those whom God had elected unto salvation - those whom God has placed under and will place under Christ - through Christ - and for them alone- the Law has ended; however, another Law exists and will continue to exist unto the end for the judgment of those not placed by God under the law of Christ.
The Law that should be taught is the law of Christ. That Law was fulfilled by Christ, and by fulfilling it, for His chosen, He satisfied all of the Law of the Law and the Prophets, and by so doing, has removed the requirement for them to do so. Therefore, by that, those laws can no longer be violated by them because they no longer exist for them. Those who do not teach the law of Christ, are teaching the violation of the law and prophets.
[Jhn 5:39 KJV]
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[Mat 5:17, 20 KJV]
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ...
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[Rom 10:3-4 KJV]
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
[Rom 6:14 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[1Co 15:56-57 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[Gal 3:10 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[Gal 4:21-26 KJV]
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[Gal 5:18 KJV]
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Heb 7:11 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[Heb 1:3 KJV]
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[Heb 10:8-10, 12, 14 KJV]
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. ...
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; ...
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The Law that should be taught is the law of Christ. That Law was fulfilled by Christ, and by fulfilling it, for His chosen, He satisfied all of the Law of the Law and the Prophets, and by so doing, has removed the requirement for them to do so. Therefore, by that, those laws can no longer be violated by them because they no longer exist for them. Those who do not teach the law of Christ, are teaching the violation of the law and prophets.
[Jhn 5:39 KJV]
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[Mat 5:17, 20 KJV]
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ...
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[Rom 10:3-4 KJV]
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
[Rom 6:14 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[1Co 15:56-57 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[Gal 3:10 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[Gal 4:21-26 KJV]
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[Gal 5:18 KJV]
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Heb 7:11 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[Heb 1:3 KJV]
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[Heb 10:8-10, 12, 14 KJV]
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. ...
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; ...
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
If the process of salvation were God unilaterally choosing some and rejecting others, or God unilaterally making the necessary changes in a person to save them, and choosing not to make those changes in others, the expression "God's boundless love and mercy" would not accurately describe that process.
-
1
- Show all