Understanding God’s election

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Inquisitor

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That's not saying much because "If God is sovereign then he could" have chosen to save no one whatsoever -- or to send Jesus into the world to lay down his life as a ransom MANY (not to be confused for "all")!

And how do you know if God hasn't already saved "billions of toddlers"? Didn't God save an entire second generation of Exodus Jews in the wilderness who didn't have any true knowledge of good and evil?
The entire nation of the Jews for two thousand years were grafted out, severed from salvation.

Romans 11:23
And they also, if they (Israel) do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

See I win again.

My proposition still stands; in Calvinism God hates nearly every toddler ever born.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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And this proves what precisely!? I know what it proves. But do you? Since you apparently don't read Isa 1: 5-6 some time.
You should read all of Isaiah 1 for context.

What my post would prove if I take your limited Isaiah verses as applying synonymously?
Is that all people are born "that way".
 

Inquisitor

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You need to hope you aren't like Esau.
Calvinism teaches that your destination was determined before God created the earth.

Your statement is meaningless.

No one can do anything about God's choice because it was an eternal choice.

God hates billions of toddlers just like He hated Esau.

Calvinism does not teach that if you believe Calvinism your saved.

The majority of Calvinists will burn in hell.

It's a numbers game in Calvinism regardless of any theological opinion.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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God respected his word like he always does

This isn’t an argument it’s just pointing out what happened lol this is Gods Will for mankind

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26, 31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems simple God includes mankind in his Will from the beginning by the design of it and gives him freedom and a warning

“And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Satan comes along and deceives them with the lie

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, ( god told them it was certain death and not to eat it ) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,( god didn’t tell them this part Satan did )

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. ( transgression of Gods commandment and Will )

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, ( why is Godnpoacing the blame on him for his deed ? ) thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; ( again why is God blaming Adam as if it’s something he did and not something Gods done ?) in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

……therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-6, 14-17, 23-24‬ ‭

remember God just placed him there to work and keep the garden and warned him now after satans deception and thier actions he’s throwing them out and closing the door with a flaming sword so they can get to the tree of life anymore


it’s hard to think God is double minded like that he tells them don’t eat the fruit you’ll die but that’s really
Not his Will his Will is that they eat the fruit become wicked to the core eventually after ten generetions and then he destroys them all but 8 . I think we should consider more of what happened in the beginning , middle. And end of scripture it helps

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭

I believe God presents the same to us all in the gospel and same choice

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
And it was also God's will for A&E to fall -- no matter how you want to frame that will -- i.e. permissive or decretive.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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It's downright weird and creepy how those who show the most interest in Calvinism say they are against it.

Ah, that is why, after all, that it is called a derangement syndrome. OK. Still weird and creepy.

They want to call people Calvinists who are not, yet refuse the label of Pelagian even though they are.


Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18
If you read those with CDS,good call Cameron, you'll notice they don't actually know anything about Calvinism.

However,being opposed to God's Election and Eternal Salvation, seems to be what inspires their accusations when they read those of us who post in defense of The Elect of God and Eternal Security.
 

Inquisitor

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Are you implying that there is no hope for Esau?
God's decision is final and you cannot change God's will.

The game was over before the earth was created.

Before Adam had sinned the end had already been predetermined in Calvinism.

Try to avoid the thought patterns that I should be like Jacob to be saved?

Or I should be like Paul to be saved?

A waste of time.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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You should read all of Isaiah 1 for context.

What my post would prove if I take your limited Isaiah verses as applying synonymously?
Is that all people are born "that way".
I suppose next, you'll be wanting me quote the entire bible to make sure we understand every single passage in its entire three-fold context: Immediate (within any given passage), Intermediate (within the book in which the passage is found and Distant context (the rest of the bible.

And, no, not all people are born "THAT way" (i.e. non-functional consciences) but all people are born with the spiritual condition the prophet described in the passage. Your theoretical "non-functional conscience would simply represent only one of any large number of symptoms of that spiritual condition...assuming, of course, that's it's true.

Besides...maybe those with dead consciences failed to take their Covid jabs. ;)
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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God's decision is final and you cannot change God's will.

The game was over before the earth was created.

Before Adam had sinned the end had already been predetermined in Calvinism.

Try to avoid the thought patterns that I should be like Jacob to be saved?

Or I should be like Paul to be saved?

A waste of time.
Both of your post are spot on in the Calvin's way of thinking because a billion people could be dedicating their lives living for God that if God ultimately chooses who goes where could be sending all 1 billion confessing Christians to eternal damnation.
 

Inquisitor

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Both of your post are spot on in the Calvin's way of thinking because a billion people could be dedicating their lives living for God that if God ultimately chooses who goes where could be sending all 1 billion confessing Christians to eternal damnation.
Of course, God's Sovereign will always prevails.

Regardless of all theological muttering.

The odds are Calvin himself is probably one of those toddlers downstairs.

In Calvinism, God created mankind in order to condemn the vast majority of toddlers.

No matter how you view Calvinism that's what it teaches.
 

Rufus

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The entire nation of the Jews for two thousand years were grafted out, severed from salvation.

Romans 11:23
And they also, if they (Israel) do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

See I win again.

My proposition still stands; in Calvinism God hates nearly every toddler ever born.
That's a bald-face lie. God has ALWAYS had his remnant here on the earth. There was never a time when he didn't have a witness for himself. Eve was the very first of God's elect, chosen people.

And...only the Jewish elect children of promise will ever be grafted into the olive tree.

And you have no biblical proof that God hates toddlers. Quite the the contrary! David knew he would, upon his own death, see his son again whom God took away due as punishment for his sin. So...God certainly didn't hate that toddler. :rolleyes:
 
Apr 24, 2025
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Of course, God's Sovereign will always prevails.

Regardless of all theological muttering.

The odds are Calvin himself is probably one of those toddlers downstairs.

In Calvinism, God created mankind in order to condemn the vast majority of toddlers.

No matter how you view Calvinism that's what it teaches.
The thing is, when we are not a Calvinist why would we care what a Calvinist believes.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Of course, God's Sovereign will always prevails.

Regardless of all theological muttering.

The odds are Calvin himself is probably one of those toddlers downstairs.

In Calvinism, God created mankind in order to condemn the vast majority of toddlers.

No matter how you view Calvinism that's what it teaches.
You must have a slew of quotes by Calvinists to support your claim, right? Surely, you could easily post a few, right?
 

Cameron143

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God's decision is final and you cannot change God's will.

The game was over before the earth was created.

Before Adam had sinned the end had already been predetermined in Calvinism.

Try to avoid the thought patterns that I should be like Jacob to be saved?

Or I should be like Paul to be saved?

A waste of time.
Be like Jesus and there's a good chance for you.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Both of your post are spot on in the Calvin's way of thinking because a billion people could be dedicating their lives living for God that if God ultimately chooses who goes where could be sending all 1 billion confessing Christians to eternal damnation .
Not to worry. God's will and man's are totally compatible. What God has decreed in eternity, the sons of men (elect and non-elect alike) will freely bring themselves into alignment with the divine will. The two wills are never at odds! And there's plenty biblical evidence to support this theological truth! Even Judas owned his own sin in spite of being satanically possessed! And Satan had to have had God's permission to enter Judas!
 

Cameron143

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Of course, God's Sovereign will always prevails.

Regardless of all theological muttering.

The odds are Calvin himself is probably one of those toddlers downstairs.

In Calvinism, God created mankind in order to condemn the vast majority of toddlers.

No matter how you view Calvinism that's what it teaches.
Isn't the probability higher that God would sovereignly choose to save babies according to grace?
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Besides, if what you say is true, then John taught in v.2 that Christ EFFECTUALLY atoned for the sins of the entire Gentile world just as He did for John's original Jewish audience.
Bingo! And that atonement is applied to those who believe.
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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Not to worry. God's will and man's are totally compatible. What God has decreed in eternity, the sons of men (elect and non-elect alike) will freely bring themselves into alignment with the divine will. The two wills are never at odds! And there's plenty biblical evidence to support this theological truth! Even Judas owned his own sin in spite of being satanically possessed! And Satan had to have had God's permission to enter Judas!
This actually is one of your better posts and well thought out even though man still has free will and we see this in Romans 1 how they reject God after knowing who He is.