Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

Understood and appreciated. As time goes on, I simply have found myself setting aside the theological descriptives like intentional and permissive and being more willing to flow with the terminology of the discussion as much as makes sense to me.

I do like what you said that I highlighted above. In all these discussions re: loss of salvation and such, including as in #12,250 above, this matter of MFW as you refer to it and that @Rufus criticizes so adamantly, has become more and more important and pointed and important for me in how I view the Text. It was important before but especially in the loss discussions I can better see that nothing really makes sense if it negates human choice.

Thanks for the comments.

Calvinism teaches that God hates the bulk of the population.

If God is sovereign then he could save billions of toddlers but he doesn't.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What more do you need?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hah...the ol' "permissive will" argument that ultimately begs the question. God freely chose to not stop man's train wreck and in so doing he actively willed the Fall to occur.

God respected his word like he always does

This isn’t an argument it’s just pointing out what happened lol this is Gods Will for mankind

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26, 31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems simple God includes mankind in his Will from the beginning by the design of it and gives him freedom and a warning

“And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Satan comes along and deceives them with the lie

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, ( god told them it was certain death and not to eat it ) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,( god didn’t tell them this part Satan did )

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. ( transgression of Gods commandment and Will )

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, ( why is Godnpoacing the blame on him for his deed ? ) thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; ( again why is God blaming Adam as if it’s something he did and not something Gods done ?) in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

……therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-6, 14-17, 23-24‬ ‭

remember God just placed him there to work and keep the garden and warned him now after satans deception and thier actions he’s throwing them out and closing the door with a flaming sword so they can get to the tree of life anymore


it’s hard to think God is double minded like that he tells them don’t eat the fruit you’ll die but that’s really
Not his Will his Will is that they eat the fruit become wicked to the core eventually after ten generetions and then he destroys them all but 8 . I think we should consider more of what happened in the beginning , middle. And end of scripture it helps

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭

I believe God presents the same to us all in the gospel and same choice

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Rufus]

Nope, the context of the meaning stays the same throughout the passage.

World = fallen system of man

The RCC doctrine of Calvinism is false.

"The Roman Catholic Church doctrine...???

 

[Jackson129]

World dosent mean world... all dosent mean all... it's like Clinton saying it depends what the definition of is.. is.

 

[Cameron143]

"The Roman Catholic Church doctrine...???

You remember...Pope Calvin I

 

[lrs68]

Only the living can feel anything. Test my "theory" out someday. Visit a funeral parlor and puncture the flesh of some corpse laid out and watch it respond.

But the living unsaved still are able to visit the person dead physically in the funeral home.

Truth is your doctrine is so full of holes because facts are still facts and nothing can change a fact. For one, God created the facts so no man's doctrine will ever be able to out maneuver the truth.

 

[rogerg]

Sadly, the Bible doesn't say that and when the Bible speaks about the Potter and the Clay and hardening of hearts we see God explaining Himself like He said Pharaoh first hardened his own heart and that Esau chose to throw away his birthright.

Late reply but didn't want to leave your old post hanging out there least someone come upon it and believe it correct being left refuted. Therefore, I'll refute now. The Bible does definitely "say that", and as usual, you have it wrong. I posted these verses before and am doing so again now in the hope you might learn from them - I suggest you read them closely - that it is by God alone repentance is given. You have Esau wrong too, but I'll let that go for now.


[2Ti 2:25,26 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[Rufus]

Calvinism teaches that God hates the bulk of the population.

If God is sovereign then he could save billions of toddlers but he doesn't.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What more do you need?

That's not saying much because "If God is sovereign then he could" have chosen to save no one whatsoever -- or to send Jesus into the world to lay down his life as a ransom MANY (not to be confused for "all")!

And how do you know if God hasn't already saved "billions of toddlers"? Didn't God save an entire second generation of Exodus Jews in the wilderness who didn't have any true knowledge of good and evil?

 

[Rufus]

But the living unsaved still are able to visit the person dead physically in the funeral home.

Truth is your doctrine is so full of holes because facts are still facts and nothing can change a fact. For one, God created the facts so no man's doctrine will ever be able to out maneuver the truth.

Yeah, but will they get a response from the stiff they puncture? You're mixing metaphors -- spiritual with physical. Spiritual death doesn't mean that a person can't do physical things -- like physically walk into a funeral home.

 

[Magenta]

I have no interest in Calvinism one way or the other.

It's downright weird and creepy how those who show the most interest in Calvinism say they are against it.

Ah, that is why, after all, that it is called a derangement syndrome. OK. Still weird and creepy.

They want to call people Calvinists who are not, yet refuse the label of Pelagian even though they are.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18

 

[GWH]

Oh I was just showing some scripture there in the thread if anyone had t read those about children to consider i agreed with your point just wanted to throw some scripture in there . I think we can learn a lot just by considering things Jesus said or other scripture says about the subjects we discuss

“Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭22:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
i would suggest if we train children up in sinful wrong ways it becomes hard for them to get off that path as well . Jesus definitely looked at children in a much more highly esteemed way than he did the grown ups . In my estimation it’s because of what you were saying originally that I replied to they aren’t hopeless evil sinners, tbier just innocent children created by and given life by God like we were at one point as well but grown ups get accountable and responsability comes as we get older in life . Can’t wear a onesie and sit in mamas lap at fourty five ….but at two or even three ….it’s the place to be

someday they’ll grow up and become accountable for thier own words and deeds and so parents should teach them right and wrong and that there are consequences for our actions and rewards for our hard work ect

All eventually sin of they get older and they’ll need an atonement named Jesus but God doesn’t judge people for what they’re going to do in the future maybe but what they actually do according to what they know and understand about good and evil or right and wrong.

He definately loves the babes and children’s

Yes, nor does God hold anyone accountable for the sins committed by someone else.

 

[lrs68]

Yeah, but will they get a response from the stiff they puncture? You're mixing metaphors -- spiritual with physical. Spiritual death doesn't mean that a person can't do physical things -- like physically walk into a funeral home.

I am merely showing by the first post about natural man is although he's awakening he's still natural until being completely filled with the Spirit of God and there's no other way to refute that other than to flat out deny the absolute truth.

 

[GWH]

Calvinism teaches that God hates the bulk of the population.

If God is sovereign then he could save billions of toddlers but he doesn't.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What more do you need?

You need to hope you aren't like Esau.

 

[Cameron143]

It's downright weird and creepy how those who show the most interest in Calvinism say they are against it.

Ah, that is why, after all, that it is called a derangement syndrome. OK. Still weird and creepy.

They want to call people Calvinists who are not, yet refuse the label of Pelagian even though they are.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18

CDS is every bit as real as TDS. People lose perspective.

 

[Jackson129]

CDS is every bit as real as TDS. People lose perspective.

I see alot of derangment from both sides of it. Do you think Jesus wants us calling each other stupid or cowards over how we think we were saved? Or rejoice with one another that we are saved?

 

[Cameron143]

I see alot of derangment from both sides of it. Do you think Jesus wants us calling each of stupid or cowards over how we think we were saved? Or rejoice with one another that we are saved?

The latter, of course.
Are there any prizes for getting the answer correct?

 

[Jackson129]

The latter, of course.
Are there any prizes for getting the answer correct?

No.. he's not gonna be like oh you guessed pre trib on the rapture here is a bigger reward. Or any other endlessly debated interpretation of differing doctrine.

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

My antivirus program blocks me from going to that cite. At any rate, at least 99% of adults in the world do have a working, albeit fallen, depraved conscience since this is one of the faculties that resides in the human heart. Man's conscience is what makes him a moral/spiritual being.

OK.
Brain scans,some performed on consenting Deathrow inmates,have shown people can be born without a conscience.

The parts of the brain that control emotions,conscience,are largely atrophied or not functioning.
The anterior Rostral Prefrontal Cortex, the Amygdal , and the Temporal poles.

Leads to diagnosis of Psychopathy or Sociopathy.

 

[Rufus]

Which verse are you referring to, and what one-time event? I think you may be asking the wrong question, though. Also are you saying Adam and Eve were raised up in Christ without having eaten from the Tree of Life? That they were in Christ simply by virtue of being alive? That certainly presents problems... although Jesus sustains all whether they are Spiritually alive/born again or not. But that is vastly different than being born again. Those not born again die twice. The second death is ever after.

The Age of Innocence quickly evaporated after the Fall. The Fall was a one-time event.

I'm saying that God filled Adam with his Spirit which is how he was made alive unto God and accounts for his subsequent death after his disobedience. In order for anyone to die (physically or spiritually) they must first be alive. Only the living can die! Saul was spiritually alive unto God after He graciously poured out his Spirit upon the king -- but then "died" afterwards when God removed his love from him, sent demons to torment him and he spent the rest of his life not only as a liar but as a murderer who persistently pursued David. Surely, the evil one was Saul's spiritual father!

If Adam did not die spiritually after he sinned, which you seem to be saying, then please explain how spiritual death spread to and afflicted all his progeny. Like father, like son? But if not, how?

 

[Rufus]

OK.
Brain scans,some performed on consenting Deathrow inmates,have shown people can be born without a conscience.

The parts of the brain that control emotions,conscience,are largely atrophied or not functioning.
The anterior Rostral Prefrontal Cortex, the Amygdal , and the Temporal poles.

Leads to diagnosis of Psychopathy or Sociopathy.

And this proves what precisely!? I know what it proves. But do you? Since you apparently don't read Isa 1: 5-6 some time.