Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Your statements do not deter me in the slightest from believing that the Son was begotten in the incarnation; for that doctrine is clearly set forth in Luke 1:35.
Here is the text of Luke 1:35 in four different popular translations:

ESV And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

KJV And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

NASB1995 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

NIV The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

None use "begotten", and none hint that Jesus was "begotten in the incarnation" at all. Your assertion that such an idea is "clearly set forth" is not only groundless, it's pure fiction.
 

TheLearner

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The Son exists eternally, uncreated as "I AM", having life in Himself, unborrowed, underived, alongside the person of the Father. They have always existed in eternity before any creation took place. The Son never came into existence at any point by creation or anything else. There was never a moment in eternity past when the Son, as a person/being was not along side the Father. Family is eternal.

The phrase "only begotten" simply means that Jesus nature as Deity is of the Father, who is identified as the only true God. Jesus is God by nature, and the Son by nature of the Father. Time has nothing to do with either term.
Thank you Brother, friend I am sure you know about the SDA Semi-Arian Sects that broke off from Mainline SDA.
Daniel
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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The children learn how to pray from the son

“And it came to pass, that, as he was...
The Luke 6:35 does not say children are present. We are to act or be like Children of God.


English Standard Version
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

Good News Translation
No! Love your enemies and do good to them; lend and expect nothing back. You will then have a great reward, and you will be children of the Most High God. For he is good to the ungrateful and the wicked.

https://biblehub.com/parallel/luke/6-35.htm
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gino_Jennings
https://truthofgod.com/

PastorJennings is an oneness pentecostal. Don't waste time listening to this guy. I am glad I have no speakers.

He has no Theological Training.

Anyone who who says that "women who chose to be fashionably dressed in church as 'whores' is not a Christian because they are degrading the "image of God" in those ladies.

"Pastor Gino Jennings and Minister Gary Robinson have been issued a cease-and-desist order from the attorneys of the Reverend Dr Carla Dunbar for the unauthorised use of her image in the promotion of their mid-year convocation event scheduled to be held on May 26 and 27, 2018.
In a story carried in THE STAR on Monday, Dunbar, the Reverend Phyllis Smith-Seymour and dancehall artiste Mr Vegas were listed as persons who would be in discussions with Jennings about topics including the dress code of church women.

However, Dunbar stated that she only learnt of the event after she saw her image and name on the promotional billboards.

"They need to issue a public apology, otherwise they will be getting a lawsuit. I have not given any consent to use my name or image on any of their billboards. I was driving to Cross Roads one day and I saw one of the billboards, and that's how I even know about the event. I then saw another one as I passed Devon House and another one in Half-Way Tree," she said.

Dunbar is threatening to take legal actions if Jennings and his team do not remove all billboards and promotional material that include her image or name for the upcoming event within 24 hours of the letter that was dated May 1, 2018. The YouTube video which had previously advertised the convocation has been removed.

Dunbar added that on that particular day, she is scheduled to be at an event at the White House in Washington DC.



Publish an apology


"They are also served with a formal demand to publish an apology in the Jamaica Gleaner on two consecutive Sundays leading up to the event. I will not be there, I will be representing the Caribbean at the White House on that day," she stated.

Mr Vegas also stated that he was unaware of him being booked for the convocation and only received an invite on Monday after an article was published in THE STAR.

When THE STAR contacted Minister Gary Robinson of the First Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ in St Elizabeth, he admitted that the advertisements were sent out before the invitations, but stated that Jennings will be rebutting their statements whether or not they are present.

"The advertisement did not state that it's a guarantee that they will be there. There are times when persons are confirmed for an event and still not show up for whatever reason," he said.

"They spoke publicly so I don't think they would expect it to go unchallenged like that. The only reason they did not get a response is because Pastor Jennings does not live in the country, but he decided to answer them at this convention," he added.

Both Dunbar and Mr Vegas were responding to Jennings after a video of him classifying women who chose to be fashionably dressed in church as 'whores' went viral.

But, according to Robinson, he does not think it is extremely out of line to use their images and names in the advertisement as they were not using it to make a profit.

"As I said before, they first went and made utterances and we are responding. Mr Vegas went on YouTube and spoke about Pastor Jennings and he didn't get Pastor Jennings' permission to speak about him. Mrs Dunbar went on TVJ and she spoke at length about him and she didn't ask what he thought. She was speaking publicly," he said.

"
http://jamaica-star.com/article/news/20180509/pastor-threatens-sue-gino-jennings
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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http://jamaica-star.com/article/new...en-hoes-female-church-leaders-say-clergyman’s

"Between February and March 2018, Jennings entered the media spotlight for his controversial sermons against women wearing excessive makeup, fake hair, wigs, and jewelry in church; comparing women who do such things to Jezebel and Delilah.[10][7] Reverend Carla Dunbar called his comments erroneous and degrading. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gino_Jennings

Anyone like this JERK is not worth my time or worth anyone listening to him. He lacks the virtures of II Peter 1, Fruit of the Spirit of gal 5 and agape of I cor 13. I am glad he is in hades on the wrong side of the grave.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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The Luke 6:35 does not say children are present. We are to act or be like Children of God.


English Standard Version
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

Good News Translation
No! Love your enemies and do good to them; lend and expect nothing back. You will then have a great reward, and you will be children of the Most High God. For he is good to the ungrateful and the wicked.

https://biblehub.com/parallel/luke/6-35.htm
“The Luke 6:35 does not say children are present. We are to act or be like Children of God.”

brother to accept the message is what makes us children the church are the children

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I’m saying is to believe the gospel and the things Jesus the son taught is the very thing That teaches us who we are. Christ was speaking to and still is speaking to the children of God and his word is what makes those things manifest and known To us

his doctrine is about living as we truly are in his sight Gods children it’s why the Gospel is about “ Father and Son” and why we need to believe the gospel of the son it’s the faith that makes the children known

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ is revealing who we are To us who believe and how to live our lives in truth

when we receive the spirit

“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father,

and ye in me, ( the son )

and I ( the son) in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A further understanding of that

“For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel message of father and son creates the children is all I’m getting at
 
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Thank you Brother, friend I am sure you know about the SDA Semi-Arian Sects that broke off from Mainline SDA.
Daniel
Yes, I knew several persons who ended up believing those things, and with at least one spent several months trying to win them back from the deception, but as I continued, I saw they were wholly given to it, and wept so much for their loss, for they were grieving away the Holy Ghost, and they pushed away the truth, their family and friends and church who came to them, and plead and prayed (I prayed so much in tears for God to give me light to win them back, and God gave, but they simply refused all aid from heaven in the word), but they rejected all. They lost both their position in high ministry office, their church membership, their standing with conference, they shut away their friends from social media, and in one case, lost his wife in divorce. The one no longer speaks with me. He started his own independent ministry with a few other like-minded persons and spreads the leprosy of error wherever he can breathe. I warn all to stay away from them, for they refuse to be helped.

They are not the only ones that have broken away. I specifically know of others now who are in similar conditions on other topics, and of them, aftero speaking with them, I have been called devil possessed. Breaks my heart for them. They had so much light, and now are in the grossest darkness. They are cut off from truth and light, from church and family and friends, and they think they are still doing God service by infecting as many as they can with their destructive doctrines.

As Jeremiah, my head is a fountain of salt water that has yet to cease and shall not cease until Christ comes again.
 
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I actually tried to contact Gino about sermon that Christians who celebrate Christmas were going to hell. I sent him a video to consider in response to his study. He and several of his churches never responded. Here is that video sermon study I sent him -

PowerPoint here - https://archive.org/details/ever-green

Video here - https://archive.org/details/aaron-evergreen

Or here - https://www.bitchute.com/video/6KrXf7N3p3IN/

Additional material after:

Ho, Ho, Ho ...

Isaiah 55:1 - Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Zechariah 2:6 - Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

There are many persons, when speaking on the subject of "Christmas", who cite Jeremiah 10:1-5, to 'prove' that the "Christmas tree" and the very "season" are all of pagan origin and thus not to be done by Christians. Here is that selection (KJB):

"10:1 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good."

Those who do produce that passage (Jer. 10:1-5), should take much more prayerful caution, and read a little more context, lest they "wrest" (Psalms 56:5; 2 Peter 3:16) the scriptures, and teach error in the place of truth. Why? It is because that passage is not directly speaking of a "Christmas tree", but rather of a tree cut from a forest, stripped of leaves and branches (a "stock", a "Christmas tree" is to retain it's branches and is more than "stock") and shaped into an idol (a "graven image", "molten image"), and plated with silver ("silver spread into plates") and gold, nailed into a fixed position, and carried on men's shoulders (like as unto what Roman Catholicism, Hinduism, etc do for their 'statues' (idols)). The Living God, contrasts Himself with those false "gods", even that which is not alive ("no breath in them", but a living tree does, as it exchanges CO2 with O2, etc). If we continue to read, we see this very thing:

"10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.

10 But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The Lord of hosts is his name.

17 Gather up thy wares out of the land, O inhabitant of the fortress.

18 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will sling out the inhabitants of the land at this once, and will distress them, that they may find it so.

19 Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous; but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.

20 My tabernacle is spoiled, and all my cords are broken: my children are gone forth of me, and they are not: there is none to stretch forth my tent any more, and to set up my curtains.

21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the Lord: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

22 Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

24 O Lord, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.

25 Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate."

Now, having read the fullness of the context, is that passage directly speaking about "Christmas trees"? No.

Is a "Christmas tree" inherently an "idol"? No.

Can it become one, even as the brazen serpent that was made by Moses at the behest of God (Numbers 21:8-9; John 3:14)? Yes (2 Kings 18:4). If it becomes an idol, then remove it, but until then, God owns the trees, and silver and gold, and made the seasons, and tells us to share, and give, with those around us who have need.

Just because satan can and does twist that which God made for a blessing, into a cursing, doesn't mean we have to allow it or follow it. Let us be thankful in this, Christ's season (Colossians 1:16), to our Father in Heaven for His precious gifts (James 1:17) unto us, let us celebrate Christ Jesus as we were always meant to.
 
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I believe that Jesus is still come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3 (kjv), 2 John 1:7 (kjv)) but that He has ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10)in the Person of the Holy Ghost (Luke 23:46)
That did not answer the question I asked directly, but seemed to indirectly. It seems (and you will have to clarify if I read your indirect answer incorrectly) that you do not believe that Jesus with flesh and bone body ascended to Heaven, but rather you believe only 'Jesus' as 'the Holy Spirt' did. If so, what happened to the flesh and bones that were glorified?
 
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Why is the answer to question 2, "n/a"?

If Jesus glorified flesh and bone body did not ascend to Heaven, but only 'Jesus', pre death, burial and resurrection, as 'the Holy Spirit', and Jesus is the example of the resurrection and going to heaven for humanity, how can the rest of humanity enter Heaven? You stated that they could, but didn't explain the how of it being possible in any detail.
 
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Both. From eternity's perspective, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost exist outside of time.
You are suggesting that in eternity past (before the 'incarnation' of Jesus, whom you claim is simply the Father taking on human flesh) the 'oneness' of 'God' is "triune" (your word)?

You are conflating (mixing the two) eternity past and time from the moment of 'incarnation'.

How can you say, "both" (eternity past and time), when you just told me that 'the Son' (whom you say is the Father come in human flesh), did not exist in time until that moment?

If you claim that time is in eternity, then you have a moment in time at which 'the Son's comes into existence, which means that 'the Son' did not exist in eternity past.

How can you say "both"?

You seem to even have 'the Son' vaporized since Calvary. Where is the "triune" post (after) Jesus saying into thy hands I commend my spirit and gave up the ghost?
 
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Time is related to eternity in that what we find in time, eternity has always been privy to it and eternity always sees what is taking place in time.
Again, you are conflating eternity and time in response to my question.

Do you believe time is in eternity?

If you do, consider my question again.

I will liken myself to being in eternity, and I will place a 12in. ruler before me representing the enter time of this created world. I will liken the 5.5-6.5 inch length to represent the period in time of 'the incarnation' to Jesus giving up the ghost. At the beginning of 0in. is creation of this world and at the end of 12in. is the consumption of this world.

I see the whole ruler at once and each segment individually. I experience the whole ruler individually and together as a whole.

Now look at my question again.

4. Do you believe that the Father is from eternity a Father, or did God take upon that attribute at some point of time, and if so when?

Using the ruler example, how would 'the Father' "from eternity" be a 'Father' if it was not until the 5.5 mark on the ruler of time that the 'incarnation' took place?

Since in eternity it (time/ruler) is all seen together, that means that 'the Father' does not exist as a 'Father' out side of 5.5-6.5 in. boundary, which simultaneously exists in eternity.

The reason I am asking is because God said of His character, "I change not", "the same yesterday, today and forever". To become a 'father' at point in time (existing in eternity) means God took upon a new character trait at that moment in time, regardless of eternity's view of all of it.
 
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Look at my ruler/time example.

Look at this question again:

5. Do you believe that God was from eternity relational, or did God take on that attribute at some point of time, and if so when, and if God was from eternity relational, with whom was God relational with?

Notice, I am asking about "from eternity". I am not asking about anything once the ruler begins at 0in. or 5.5-6.5in. or after unto the final section at 12in.

I am asking you How can 'God' be relational pre 0in. in your model? How can 'God' be relational to 'the Son' pre 5.5in? How can 'God' be relational with 'the Son' post 6.5in?

How is your 'God' "triune" pre 5.5in and post 6.5in?

You say 'God' is in all time (correct) but by your scenario the persons of Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not. They are prisoners bound by their existing only in moments of time/ruler.

This means that 'God' in your scenario is pre time non relational (and cannot be love until creating, you have it backwards, as if 'God' experiencing creation from eternity allows 'God' to be love and relational, but that is begging the question) and pre 5.5 and post 6.5 non relational in persons of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
 
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"
VII. The Holy Spirit Is God
A. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God
1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14
2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
C. Involved in all the works of God
1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35
3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27
D. Is a person
1. Has a name:
: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might
be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and
the Son, it must be used of a person
2. Is the "Helper"
a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1;
note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in
Greek always or almost always of persons.
b. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not
on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify
Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.
3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf.
Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29;
10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11: 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb.
3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13,22.
5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language
used of other persons
a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf.
Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Isa 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.;
cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; 14:10

"
https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf
You have only supported the fact that the Holy Spirit is God's power, and he does with it what he wants. Because it is intelligent doesn't make it a person. The internet is intelligent and teaches us, but it is not a person. Email can intercede for us, but it is not a person. The internet helps us to make decisions and it can help you make judgements, but it is not a person. A letter can be sent to you in the mail to convict you of sin against the law but is the letter from the court a person. There is nothing in the Bible that uses the word "omnipresent" where does that word come from? God is in the Heaven and has a throne a location. Psalms 47:8, Psalms 103:19, Exodus 24:9-11 Even if it is figurative, he is still alluding to the fact that he is in a location in Heaven. Now if you're talking about his Ruach again that is his spirit/energy that comes from him. God is not in everything and everybody his Ruach is.
 
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God is love from eternity based on my answer to question 4; while He cannot be love without an object of love and therefore God has always been privy to what happens in time as He dwells in eternity.
Your answer shows why I asked. Your 'God' in order to be (in eternity) relational or love requires something outside of Himself - ie creation. Your 'God' is not of Himself relational or love, but requires something to have to come into existence to be the very thing (relational/love) He is supposed to already be.

Saying that your 'God' is relational or love because of creation is begging the question and argues in a circle refuting itself each cycle.

If God is not relational or love already existing apart from creation can never be relational or love by creation, and neither would the creation. Mankind was made in the image and likeness of God. If God were not inherently relational and love, mankind amidst mankind could not find relationship or love one another.
 
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I believe that we do not cease to be flesh and bone human beings when we enter into eternity.
You believe that 'Jesus' as 'the holy spirit' went to Heaven pre death, burial and resurrection, when 'Jesus' gave up the ghost on the Cross, correct?

What happened to the flesh and bones that were left hanging on the Cross?

Do you believe that those 'flesh and bones' were later glorified and resurrected? If so, who is this person?