Universal Laws of Heavenly Bodies

[Muskokaman]

I agree Musk. The level I have been working on is to prove that nothing in science can be proved. It is ONLY THE BIBLE which can be trusted. If God said it, IT IS TRUE.

I don't think geo or helio centrists can be proved, but I do take the Doc's point that scripture COULD imply a stationary Earth. Scripture could also be interpreted (using the poetic language) to imply the Bible does not categorically state that the Earth is stationary. Sometimes I believe we need to interpret the scriptures logically and with our God given common sense using the context of teaching from the whole Bible. Of course we also need help from the Holy Spirit to interpret.

Couldn't agree more John! I respect Doc.s view scripturally but it doesn't jive scientifically and before we go into the scientific psycobabble again I wanna be on record as saying It is good to try and understand the workings or mechanics of the Universe right from the smallest particle up to the entire universe. Since Eve let the cat outta the bag in Eden it has been our lot to learn anyways.

There is much more hidden in those passages than meets the eye!

Personally I find it VERY unfair that the whole of mankind is bound to this fate because of the decision of 2 people to go against the will of God in the first place.
Ya I know free will.....yada yada yada
However as it is said in Ecclesiastes that is our lot and we should be content with it. (was never fond of that line either) Might as well say that's just the way it is suck it up buttercup thats life!

 

[AnandaHya]

Couldn't agree more John! I respect Doc.s view scripturally but it doesn't jive scientifically and before we go into the scientific psycobabble again I wanna be on record as saying It is good to try and understand the workings or mechanics of the Universe right from the smallest particle up to the entire universe. Since Eve let the cat outta the bag in Eden it has been our lot to learn anyways.

There is much more hidden in those passages than meets the eye!

Personally I find it VERY unfair that the whole of mankind is bound to this fate because of the decision of 2 people to go against the will of God in the first place.
Ya I know free will.....yada yada yada
However as it is said in Ecclesiastes that is our lot and we should be content with it. (was never fond of that line either) Might as well say that's just the way it is suck it up buttercup thats life!

what are you talking about Musko?

the whole fate of mankind is redeemed by the blood of ONE Man so how is that unfair?

I believe God wants us to learn everything about the world around us because He created us and told Mankind to have dominion over all living things in the air, the sea and on land.


Genesis 1
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.

 

[Muskokaman]

what are you talking about Musko?

the whole fate of mankind is redeemed by the blood of ONE Man so how is that unfair?

I believe God wants us to learn everything about the world around us because He created us and told Mankind to have dominion over all living things in the air, the sea and on land.


Genesis 1
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.

Would we have needed the redemption if Eve hadn't picked the fruit in the first place or Adam eaten it?

 

[AnandaHya]

Would we have needed the redemption if Eve hadn't picked the fruit in the first place or Adam eaten it?

yes.

look at your own life and identify when you first sinned. then you will realize YOU ate the apple not just Eve or Adam.

Not only their actions but YOUR OWN causes you to need a redeemer.

If God was just "fair" as men count fairness with no grace or love, then all of humanity by their own actions have already condemned themselves by their own choices in this life without factoring their ancestors' sin.

 

[zone]

Huh? Musk could you please make that clearer.

Regarding curiosity. What about Eve being curious about the tree of the knowlege of good and evil? Curiosity leads to temptation and doubt in God's Word. Curiosity is a trait of our sinful nature. Faith is not curious, it trusts what God has said about the Universe.

that's true john.
but since Eden we have a problem, and have to deal with it:

Hebrews 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

 

[zone]

So you think heliocentricism which has been purported since Galileo and corroberated with findings from many different thoughts of scientific study is utter nonsense? Right?

Well there's no accounting for taste I guess! You Know PPS I have tucked my tail in on this subject because I do not wish to offend anyone but even with Doc.s proposed geocentricist model I spent hours watching yesterday I still do not believe in geocentricism. when It comes right down to brass tacts neither of us can prove jack about the nature of the heavenly bodies with science if we are to refute the science we are using.
So that being said lets see some scripture without exegete (I don't want some other mans Ideas polluting the thought process) that proves geocentricism and we will go from there

doc already laid out scripture musk.
go back.

 

[Muskokaman]

yes.

look at your own life and identify when you first sinned. then you will realize YOU ate the apple not just Eve or Adam.

Not only their actions but YOUR OWN causes you to need a redeemer.

If God was just "fair" as men count fairness with no grace or love, then all of humanity by their own actions have already condemned themselves by their own choices in this life without factoring their ancestors' sin.

There would be no sin in the world Ananda if Eve had not have picked the fruit in the first place in other words I would never have sinned today period.

So far as men count fairness since I am not god I have only one way to count fairness!

 

[Muskokaman]

doc already laid out scripture musk.
go back.

ok checking

 

[AnandaHya]

There would be no sin in the world Ananda if Eve had not have picked the fruit in the first place in other words I would never have sinned today period.

So far as men count fairness since I am not god I have only one way to count fairness!

before Eve did anything the Serpent tempted. Did he sin?

Checked the scriptures, not buying the whole geocentric model. Don't believe the scriptures support it.

 

[Muskokaman]

Only because thats what you WANT to believe. Shemesh means sun. The physical sun.

I've got plenty of scripture talking about the sun moving.

Genesis 15:12...... "...and when the sun was going down..."

15:17..... "...when the sun went down..."

19:23..... "The sun was risen upon the earth."

28:11..... "...because the sun was set...."

32:31..... "...the sun rose...."

Exodus 17:12..... "...until the going down of the sun...."

22:3...... "...if the sun be risen upon him...."

22:26.... "...the sun goeth down...."

Leviticus 22:7...... "...And when the sun is down...."

Numbers 2:3........ "...toward the rising of the sun...."

Deuteronomy 11:30..... "...the way where the sun goeth down...."

16:6....... "...at the going down of the sun...."

23:11..... "...when the sun is down...."

24:13..... "...when the sun goeth down...."

24:15..... "...neither shall the sun go down...."

Joshua 1:4..... "...the going down of the sun...."

8:29... "...as soon as the sun was down...."

10:12.. "...Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon...."

10:13.. "...and the sun stood still...."

10:27.. "...the time of the going down of the sun...."

12:1.... "...toward the rising of the sun...."

Judges 5:31.... "...as the sun when he goeth down...."

8:13.... "...before the sun was up...."

9:33.... "...as soon as the sun is up...."

14:18.... "...before the sun went down...."

19:14.... "...and the sun went down...."

II Samuel 2:24.... "...the sun went down...."

3:35.... "...till the sun be down...."

23:4..... "...when the sun riseth...."

I Kings 22:36.... "...the going down of the sun...."

I Chronicles 16:30.... "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved...."

II Chronicles 18:34.... "...time of the sun going down...."

Job 9:7.... "...commandeth the sun and it riseth not...."

Job 26:7.... "...He hangeth the earth upon nothing...."

Psalm 19:4.... "...tabernacle for the sun...."

19:5 ... "...cometh out to run...."

19:6.... "...goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other...."

50:1.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

93:1.... "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved...."

104:19.. "...the sun knoweth his going down...."

104:22.. "...the sun ariseth...."

113:3.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

Ecclesiastes 1:5.... "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down

and hasteth to the place where he arose...."

Isaiah 13:10.... "...sun shall be darkened in his going...."

38:8...... "...is gone down on the sundial of Ahaz...."

38:8...... "...so the sun returned...."

41:25.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

45:6...... "...from the rising of the sun...."

59:19.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

60:20.... "...the sun shall no more go down...."

Jeremiah 15:9.... "...her sun is gone down while it was yet day...."

Daniel 6:14.... "...going down of the sun...."

Amos 8:9.... "...cause the sun to go down at noon...."

Jonah 4:8.... "...when the sun did arise...."

Micah 3:6.... "...and the sun shall go down...."

Nahum 3:17.... "...when the sun ariseth...."

Habakkuk 3:11.... "...the sun and moon stood still in their habitation...."

Malachi 1:11.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

Matthew 5:45.... "...for He maketh His sun to rise...."

13:6..... "...and when the sun was up...."

Mark 1:32.... "...when the sun did set...."

4:6...... "...when the sun was up...."

16:2...... "...at the rising of the sun...."

Luke 4:40.... "...when the sun was setting...."

Ephesians 4:26.... "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath...."

James 1:11.... "...for the sun is no sooner risen...."

Now you just show me ONE VERSE describing the earth moving. JUST ONE!

Why should you believe scripture when it says the SON is risen from the grave when you dont believe the SUN rises?

Well theres lots of scripture pertaining to the sun. NONE of it proves the earth is stationary because it was all written from the perspective of looking up from earth (earthly observation) not to mention the scriptures quoted are from so many different passages and all have their relevancy to the topic they were being used to expound on rather than to a direct description of the movements of heavenly bodies!

 

[Muskokaman]

before Eve did anything the Serpent tempted. Did he sin?

Checked the scriptures, not buying the whole geocentric model. Don't believe the scriptures support it.

Then are you saying Man isn't responsible for bringing evil into the world?

 

[AnandaHya]

Then are you saying Man isn't responsible for bringing evil into the world?

i'm not saying anything.

I'm asking a question. thus the whole question mark thingie at the end of the statement.

nevermind I'll go read my Bible.

 

[JohnChingford2007]

There would be no sin in the world Ananda if Eve had not have picked the fruit in the first place in other words I would never have sinned today period.

So far as men count fairness since I am not god I have only one way to count fairness!

I do get your point. The whole of mankind came from Adam and Eve. As the NT puts it "in Adam we all have sinned" So if they had not of sinned, we would not have inherited the sinful nature.

However, no point discussing the IF's. IT DID happen, no discussing it will change it! As "Res33" keeps saying "God is Just". As God implied to Job, how can man judge GOD and determine what is fair. GOD sets the standards of fairness.

One thing we know is that God in His great mercy dealt with our sinful nature by sending His Son to take our place and be judged in our place. Book of Romans is full of explanations as to God's Justice, fairness and mercy and what He did to save us from our sinful nature.

Actually, none of us have any excuse, because we have all sinned and fallen short of God's Glory (standard) for our lives. We have ALL been born out of Adam's helpless race, but God has provided us with salvation from it.

 

[Muskokaman]

I do get your point. The whole of mankind came from Adam and Eve. As the NT puts it "in Adam we all have sinned" So if they had not of sinned, we would not have inherited the sinful nature.

However, no point discussing the IF's. IT DID happen, no discussing it will change it! As "Res33" keeps saying "God is Just". As God implied to Job, how can man judge GOD and determine what is fair. GOD sets the standards of fairness.

One thing we know is that God in His great mercy dealt with our sinful nature by sending His Son to take our place and be judged in our place. Book of Romans is full of explanations as to God's Justice, fairness and mercy and what He did to save us from our sinful nature.

Actually, none of us have any excuse, because we have all sinned and fallen short of God's Glory (standard) for our lives. We have ALL been born out of Adam's helpless race, but God has provided us with salvation from it.

Thanks John and I agree with you, still doesn't make it any easier to swallow though!
Suppose it is pointless discussing the ifs, coulda, shoulda, woulda, still seems quite ridiculous to build a cosmos and an earth and all that's in it just to watch little humans run around in a grand science experiment to see who will believe and who will not, when as God he coulda just solved the problem with one thought anyway. (destroy Satan and his confederates) and move on to eternity in glory the whole freedom of choice thing is an exercise in futility when Satan and his confederates destruction is the eventual game plan anyway.

Do you see my reasoning here?

 

[JohnChingford2007]

Thanks John and I agree with you, still doesn't make it any easier to swallow though!
Suppose it is pointless discussing the ifs, coulda, shoulda, woulda, still seems quite ridiculous to build a cosmos and an earth and all that's in it just to watch little humans run around in a grand science experiment to see who will believe and who will not, when as God he coulda just solved the problem with one thought anyway. (destroy Satan and his confederates) and move on to eternity in glory the whole freedom of choice thing is an exercise in futility when Satan and his confederates destruction is the eventual game plan anyway.

Do you see my reasoning here?

I do see your reasoning but have to disagree. It is at this point that I always quote

"“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

We are not God and our minds are finite/limited, so HOW can we (mere mortals) understand perfection. God's ways are perfect, our thinking is NOT! God ALWAYS has a purpose. It would be good for us all to read Go's reply to Job in chapters 38-41 and then Job's sudden humility (in response) in chapter 42

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

There would be no sin in the world Ananda if Eve had not have picked the fruit in the first place in other words I would never have sinned today period.

So far as men count fairness since I am not god I have only one way to count fairness!

Well... I'm thankful that by grace I will be a partaker of the Divine nature for all of eternity instead of just being like Edenic Adam. I'm His abode. Adam was not.

GLORY!!!!

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Well theres lots of scripture pertaining to the sun. NONE of it proves the earth is stationary because it was all written from the perspective of looking up from earth (earthly observation) not to mention the scriptures quoted are from so many different passages and all have their relevancy to the topic they were being used to expound on rather than to a direct description of the movements of heavenly bodies!

Okay. But if we've determined that much of science is hypothetical and unprovable apart from assent to the hypotheses, and geocentricism shares that dilemna also; then we're left to which persuades us unto belief apart from true empiricism.

Scripture certainly seems to at least imply geocentricity. So THEN it's down to one's position on inspiration of Scripture. I personally hold to authorship by the Holy Spirit through those authors; thus the passages aren't subject to the limited observable perspectives of the authors in a human sense. There was enough dictation method that scripture isn't subject to authorial perception.

In other words... GOD said the sun went back 10 degrees. The human author didn't say that.

Does that make sense to you, even if you don't agree?

 

[LightningClap0002]

Okay. But if we've determined that much of science is hypothetical and unprovable apart from assent to the hypotheses, and geocentricism shares that dilemna also; then we're left to which persuades us unto belief apart from true empiricism.

Scripture certainly seems to at least imply geocentricity. So THEN it's down to one's position on inspiration of Scripture. I personally hold to authorship by the Holy Spirit through those authors; thus the passages aren't subject to the limited observable perspectives of the authors in a human sense. There was enough dictation method that scripture isn't subject to authorial perception.

In other words... GOD said the sun went back 10 degrees. The human author didn't say that.

Does that make sense to you, even if you don't agree?

Pneuma,

Your argument only works if there is a way in hebrew to differentiate between the earth stopping spinning and the sun physically moving. With out a doubt it is God's words, but God's words in human language. English certainly can differentiate between the two, but could hebrew? To make your claim you first must prove that a distinction could have been made. Then prove that the distinction WAS made. Once you have demonstrated this, you then still need to demonstrate that the distinction is SIGNIFICANT.

We are claiming that whether the earth or sun moves is not significant. But for you to prove that it IS in fact significant, you must demonstrate all of the above.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

So you think heliocentricism which has been purported since Galileo and corroberated with findings from many different thoughts of scientific study is utter nonsense? Right?

No, not at all. In light of my long-term indoctrination, heliocentrism is the only thing that makes logical sense. I've just learned to step aside from all that and seek the mind of Christ and for truth at any cost.

The main thing is... I know how pervasive the deceit is, including its far-reaching influences on science. I don't question some areas of science; but astronomy and cosmology are heavily based on an ascending hypothetical pyramid of conditional hypotheses. Pull out one Jenga block and... CRASH!

Well there's no accounting for taste I guess! You Know PPS I have tucked my tail in on this subject because I do not wish to offend anyone but even with Doc.s proposed geocentricist model I spent hours watching yesterday I still do not believe in geocentricism. when It comes right down to brass tacts neither of us can prove jack about the nature of the heavenly bodies with science if we are to refute the science we are using.
So that being said lets see some scripture without exegete (I don't want some other mans Ideas polluting the thought process) that proves geocentricism and we will go from there

See my previous post and let me know if it makes sense to you.

 

[Muskokaman]

Okay. But if we've determined that much of science is hypothetical and unprovable apart from assent to the hypotheses, and geocentricism shares that dilemna also; then we're left to which persuades us unto belief apart from true empiricism.

Scripture certainly seems to at least imply geocentricity. So THEN it's down to one's position on inspiration of Scripture. I personally hold to authorship by the Holy Spirit through those authors; thus the passages aren't subject to the limited observable perspectives of the authors in a human sense. There was enough dictation method that scripture isn't subject to authorial perception.

In other words... GOD said the sun went back 10 degrees. The human author didn't say that.

Does that make sense to you, even if you don't agree?

Thats what it all hangs on then doesn't it? Authors ........How many authors? which version do we take The KJV? The NIV? The NASB? The Torah? The Talmud? Why such a difference between the Roman Catholic version and the protestant one?
That's the one thing Muslims have on Christians and Jews They have one version it may be translated into many languages but it's word for word unchanged in 1400 years can't say the same for ANY Christian bible regardless of age there is always discrepencies!
On the front of your KJV what does it say under who's authority is it brought forth?

In the NIV I am reading from right now there are many passages from Modern men inserted into the bible and these men are not apostles nor are they prophets yet their words are found within the book!

Does it not say in Revelations about adding or detracting from the scriptures?

Well What say You?