Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

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DavidTree

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I do have faith. And realize every word of God is flawless. The biblical record confirms God gave believers specific commands in both the OT and NT. The thief died prior to the resurrection and glorification of Jesus. Therefore, the NT commands were not in effect. That occurred when the Holy Ghost was poured out after Jesus was glorified. (Acts 2)

The initial message to the NT church is outlined in Acts chapter 2. It includes the need to believe in Jesus death, burial and resurrection and stated requirements. Peter gave specific instructions to individuals who asked what they must do. They were told to repent, and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost. Peter later commanded the Gentiles to get baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus after they received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 10) And assisted in the Samaritans conversion as well. (Acts 8)
Your not showing faith in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ who said:

"Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the New Covenant in My BLOOD,
which is shed for you."


How is it you dismiss the words of the LORD???

Is it not to justify your position = all you care about is the Thief dying under the OT which is completely False.

Why?

Hebrews does nut nulify the words of Christ = nothing you say can change what happened that DAY.

IT IS WRITTEN in HIS BLOOD
 

Runningman

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Your not showing faith in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ who said:

"Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the New Covenant in My BLOOD,
which is shed for you."


How is it you dismiss the words of the LORD???

Is it not to justify your position = all you care about is the Thief dying under the OT which is completely False.

Why?

Hebrews does nut nulify the words of Christ = nothing you say can change what happened that DAY.

IT IS WRITTEN in HIS BLOOD
I firmly believe there is a good way to unite what it means to be saved by water baptism and saved by faith. These discussions shouldn’t be putting parts of the Bible against each other to try to disprove the truth of passages by quoting other passages. Saying that water baptism doesn’t save doesn’t harmonize the scriptures.

So what does it mean when the Bible says water baptism is necessary to be saved?
 
Jul 18, 2017
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So what does it mean when the Bible says water baptism is necessary to be saved?
If you would make the effort to understand that water is a metaphor for either (a) the Holy Spirit or (b) the Word of God (the Gospel) you would stop trying to promote the idea that water baptism saves. The gift of the Holy Spirit (which also corresponds to the gift of salvation) is ALWAYS before water baptism. For the clearest example see Acts chapter 10. The Bible is very clear: BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED. This is exactly what Christ preached.

So how do we reconcile this with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38? By taking the TOTALITY of all the Scriptures regarding salvation, and arriving at a proper understanding of justification by grace through faith PLUS NOTHING. Take note that there is no mention of baptism in a critical chapter regarding salvation -- Hebrews 11.

Those two verses mentioned above are there to stress the necessity of baptism for sanctification. The first step of sanctification is obedience to Christ is believer's baptism. And sanctification is not justification.
 

DavidTree

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I firmly believe there is a good way to unite what it means to be saved by water baptism and saved by faith. These discussions shouldn’t be putting parts of the Bible against each other to try to disprove the truth of passages by quoting other passages. Saying that water baptism doesn’t save doesn’t harmonize the scriptures.

So what does it mean when the Bible says water baptism is necessary to be saved?
The JOY of my heart is for everyone to see the Righteousness in water baptism from God's Purpose and Plan.

Let us look together, in the Spirit, and allow the Word to Speak to our hearts.

We can start here - Matthew 3:13-15

Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
But Jesus answered and said to him, Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”
Then he allowed Him.

Take note that this is at the Beginning of Christ's Ministry and was not part of the Last Supper where HE began the Shedding of His BLOOD for the New Covenant.

ALL Truth begins in Genesis - the answer as to the Righteousness that our LORD spoke of to John is in Genesis AND again i the Prophets.

Keep in the forefront of your mind that the Scripture does not say water baptism must be done to be saved but it is part of God's Will.
The Scripture from Genesis to Revelation does SAY - LOUD and CLEAR that the BLOOD of Christ saves us.
This is why water baptism is never mentioned in Revelation but His BLOOD is.

The connection of water baptism and Salvation is in Genesis and the Prophets = "to fulfill all righteousness."

PEACE
 

Runningman

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If you would make the effort to understand that water is a metaphor for either (a) the Holy Spirit or (b) the Word of God (the Gospel) you would stop trying to promote the idea that water baptism saves. The gift of the Holy Spirit (which also corresponds to the gift of salvation) is ALWAYS before water baptism. For the clearest example see Acts chapter 10. The Bible is very clear: BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED. This is exactly what Christ preached.
Unfortunately it isn’t crystal clear. Acts 19:1-7 says they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when they believed nor did they receive the Holy Spirit as a direct result of their baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus; they got the Holy Spirit after Paul laid his hands on them.

It seems like there are a few different typical methods to getting the Holy Spirit. For some reason, according to scripture, there are different methods and they aren’t the same for everyone. I suppose this is just God’s sovereign choice.
 

FreeGrace2

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I firmly believe there is a good way to unite what it means to be saved by water baptism and saved by faith. These discussions shouldn’t be putting parts of the Bible against each other to try to disprove the truth of passages by quoting other passages. Saying that water baptism doesn’t save doesn’t harmonize the scriptures.
There are no conflicts. No verse says that "water baptism" saves. Not even 1 Pet 3:21. It DOES say that literal water SYMBOLIZES the baptism (Holy Spirit) that does save.

So what does it mean when the Bible says water baptism is necessary to be saved?
Please show the verse.
 

DavidTree

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Unfortunately it isn’t crystal clear. Acts 19:1-7 says they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when they believed nor did they receive the Holy Spirit as a direct result of their baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus; they got the Holy Spirit after Paul laid his hands on them.

It seems like there are a few different typical methods to getting the Holy Spirit. For some reason, according to scripture, there are different methods and they aren’t the same for everyone. I suppose this is just God’s sovereign choice.
100% Correct that God's Sovereignty chooses the Plan for receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
THREE things are constant in this Plan =
#1 Hearing the Word
#2 Believing the Word
#3 the Messenger speaking the Word has the Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon them.

Read Acts ch19 again and find out why the disciples had not received the Holy Spirit prior to the Apostle Paul showing up.
These disciples were true believers for they heard the word being preached to them and believed before Paul arrived.
Go back a few chapters and read when this occurred.
 

FreeGrace2

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100% Correct that God's Sovereignty chooses the Plan for receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
THREE things are constant in this Plan =
#1 Hearing the Word
#2 Believing the Word
#3 the Messenger speaking the Word has the Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon them.

Read Acts ch19 again and find out why the disciples had not received the Holy Spirit prior to the Apostle Paul showing up.
These disciples were true believers for they heard the word being preached to them and believed before Paul arrived.
Go back a few chapters and read when this occurred.
Right. 19:4 - Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So this shows that these disciples HAD believed in Jesus, since they had received John's baptism of repentance.

What is interesting is it seems from Scripture the receiving of the Holy Spirit wasn't consistent among Gentiles, but not among Jews.

I'm not aware of Jews receiving the Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands.
 

Wansvic

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Unfortunately it isn’t crystal clear. Acts 19:1-7 says they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when they believed nor did they receive the Holy Spirit as a direct result of their baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus; they got the Holy Spirit after Paul laid his hands on them.

It seems like there are a few different typical methods to getting the Holy Spirit. For some reason, according to scripture, there are different methods and they aren’t the same for everyone. I suppose this is just God’s sovereign choice.
The Samaritan account also shows the Holy Ghost was received days after they believed Philip's message and were water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 8:12-18)
 

DavidTree

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Right. 19:4 - Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So this shows that these disciples HAD believed in Jesus, since they had received John's baptism of repentance.

What is interesting is it seems from Scripture the receiving of the Holy Spirit wasn't consistent among Gentiles, but not among Jews.

I'm not aware of Jews receiving the Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands.
I will have to look again concerning the Jews in Acts - Thank You for that aspect.

What we know is that, unlike today, the Jews had First Hand Encounter with the LORD Himself. Therefore the Scripture was more well known/available to them since childhood. This most likely prepared them to the Message more so then the Gentiles.
 

DavidTree

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Right. 19:4 - Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So this shows that these disciples HAD believed in Jesus, since they had received John's baptism of repentance.

What is interesting is it seems from Scripture the receiving of the Holy Spirit wasn't consistent among Gentiles, but not among Jews.

I'm not aware of Jews receiving the Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands.
FOUND IT - Acts ch9

Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children[c] of Israel. 16For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord [d]Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.18Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is CONTAGIOUS for those who BELIEVE.
 

DavidTree

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I firmly believe there is a good way to unite what it means to be saved by water baptism and saved by faith. These discussions shouldn’t be putting parts of the Bible against each other to try to disprove the truth of passages by quoting other passages. Saying that water baptism doesn’t save doesn’t harmonize the scriptures.

So what does it mean when the Bible says water baptism is necessary to be saved?
Concerning this Thread we should all start with a Song of Praise to the LORD

 

DavidTree

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It is said of Baptism, it is an outward sign of an inner grace.

Baptism is reminiscient of the Mikvah, the Jewish ritual cleansing bath.
As we are born of water and blood the first time, when we accept Christ as savior we are reborn in him. Born again.

The rite of Baptism is symbolic in that we are submerged beneath the water, remember Jesus is living water, and arise cleansed as a new being. Having been reborn when submerged as sinner, washed clean and arise a saint in Christ.

Free of the sins God will never again recall. This isnt what saves us. This is what symbolically regenerates our being formerly dead in our worldly sins.
Then reborn of living water as a new creation in Christ.

Jesus is living water. Jesus saves. We are saved by grace through faith.
The doctrine that claims we are not saved if not baptized puts conditions on what God ordained by his leading whom he will to his son.

God's free irrevocable gift of faith and salvation is not conditioned on emersion in water when Jesus is the living water that saves eternally. NOT conditionally.

Any doctrine that insists you are not saved unless you are baptized is literally a damned lie.

There are over a billion Catholics on earth. Sprinkle baptized as babies, or later converts. Are they all unknown to God?

Did God never know or call a one of them to his son?

Are they all damned for lack of emersion baptism? Do we know? Or does God know his own before the foundation of this world?
Well said - thank you
 

Runningman

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It is said of Baptism, it is an outward sign of an inner grace.

Baptism is reminiscient of the Mikvah, the Jewish ritual cleansing bath.
As we are born of water and blood the first time, when we accept Christ as savior we are reborn in him. Born again.

The rite of Baptism is symbolic in that we are submerged beneath the water, remember Jesus is living water, and arise cleansed as a new being. Having been reborn when submerged as sinner, washed clean and arise a saint in Christ.

Free of the sins God will never again recall. This isnt what saves us. This is what symbolically regenerates our being formerly dead in our worldly sins.
Then reborn of living water as a new creation in Christ.

Jesus is living water. Jesus saves. We are saved by grace through faith.
The doctrine that claims we are not saved if not baptized puts conditions on what God ordained by his leading whom he will to his son.

God's free irrevocable gift of faith and salvation is not conditioned on emersion in water when Jesus is the living water that saves eternally. NOT conditionally.

Any doctrine that insists you are not saved unless you are baptized is literally a damned lie.

There are over a billion Catholics on earth. Sprinkle baptized as babies, or later converts. Are they all unknown to God?

Did God never know or call a one of them to his son?

Are they all damned for lack of emersion baptism? Do we know? Or does God know his own before the foundation of this world?
"Outward sign of an inner grace" isn't really scripture though and I am kind of a stickler about that. Actually none of what you said seems to be scripture, but rather your own commentary.

Can you see that water baptism is for being resurrected after reading the OP?
 

Wansvic

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Right. 19:4 - Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So this shows that these disciples HAD believed in Jesus, since they had received John's baptism of repentance.

What is interesting is it seems from Scripture the receiving of the Holy Spirit wasn't consistent among Gentiles, but not among Jews.

I'm not aware of Jews receiving the Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands.
Paul's question proves the Holy Ghost is not automatically given when a person believes.

In addition, the disciples in this account believed in a coming messiah. John's water baptism for repentance was done in anticipation of the Messiah's arrival. The messiah's identity was a mystery to many. Water baptism was later modified to include the use of the name of the Jewish messiah as Jesus prophesied in Luke 24:47. And presented in Acts 2:38.
 

Wansvic

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FOUND IT - Acts ch9

Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children[c] of Israel. 16For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
17And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord [d]Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.18Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is CONTAGIOUS for those who BELIEVE.
Note. You neglected to mention that Paul believed in the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus but was not filled with the Holy Ghost at that time. Jesus actually sent Paul to Ananias who told him what he must do. Acts 9:6

"And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." After Paul was filled with the Holy Ghost he arose was baptized. (Acts 9:17-18)
Acts 22:16 provides details concerning Paul's water baptism:

" And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
 

Wansvic

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Water baptism has always been necessary:

Paul's conversion experience: "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." Paul was told he must be filled with the Holy Ghost and be baptized. (Acts 9:17-18) Acts 22:16 provides details concerning Paul's water baptism: "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

Jews at Pentecost conversion experience: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:36-41
 

DavidTree

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Note. You neglected to mention that Paul believed in the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus but was not filled with the Holy Ghost at that time. Jesus actually sent Paul to Ananias who told him what he must do. Acts 9:6

"And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." After Paul was filled with the Holy Ghost he arose was baptized. (Acts 9:17-18)
Acts 22:16 provides details concerning Paul's water baptism:

" And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
*** IMPORTANT NOTICE from GOD ***

#1.) Paul is saved at the appearing of the LORD to him.
#2.) Ananias lays hands on Paul and prays for him and Paul receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
#3.) LAST and LEAST = Paul is water baptized.

You said: "Water baptism has always been necessary:" = NO = it NEVER can Save you = only for obedience unto righteousness