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My comments aren't just for this thread. It just seems that any time someone posts that faith should be active, a group jumps in and starts in on works salvation. Most people who commented at first started with they didnt want to watch the video and didn't care to because salvation isn't based on works. It just reminds me of how my kids say they don't like to eat something before they even tasted it.
Well done brother. I agree that our response to Jesus needs to be real, not just
nodding our heads and saying Christ was a good guy, said lots of nice things and I
do the religious things I need to to secure my place on the chariot to heaven.
Trouble a lot of brothers and sisters are moaning that saying they need to do anything
is just too much condemnation and legalism. Just accept and let God do what He wants
and then it is all His fault when it goes belly up,
nodding our heads and saying Christ was a good guy, said lots of nice things and I
do the religious things I need to to secure my place on the chariot to heaven.
Trouble a lot of brothers and sisters are moaning that saying they need to do anything
is just too much condemnation and legalism. Just accept and let God do what He wants
and then it is all His fault when it goes belly up,
It's best to just ignore those that are here causing strife and division with their name-calling and insults.
Here is an internet definition of the word "cult." (A cultist, of course, being one who is a member of such a cult!)
1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with itsfollowers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian,charismatic leader.b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive orexceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
Cultist - definition of cultist by The Free Dictionary
Some of these definitions do not apply, such as # 6. #2, #3 usually refers to a small religion or way of following rules, such as the cult of the Levites, or the cult religion of the Babylonians. It does not refer to modern cults, although one might think so.
That leaves us with #1, #4, #5.
First, all Word Faith teachers seek to gather followers. They have videos, websites, and large churches for their followers. They fight with each other for devotees, since devotees mean money. They fight over who is the real leader.
Do they live in an unconventional manner?
Many do not! But those who truly believe that healing comes with the atonement, put their lives on the line for this false belief. If they are sick, they do not seek help from modern medicine, but rely on "claiming" healing, and not confessing they are sick as per the wrong doctrine of this cult. Which is a pretty false way to look at life. And very extremist! Then there is the Prosperity gospel, with those who follow at times giving away their life savings, and retirement money, because some charismatic leader has told them the seed money will return 10 fold. I have known too many people who got sucked into these Word Faith lies, and either paid for it with their lives, or by losing every penny they owned. If that doesn't fuflll defintion 1a. I don't know what does.
Of course, #1b is the cultists themselves. So if you are in a cult, you are probably a cultist, right? Just common sense logic.
Which brings us to #4. Do I really have to expound this one? Healing guaranteed. No science, just some vague testimonials. Personally, if God heals people (and I am not putting God in a box here!) it is probably in spite of Word Faith, not because of it!
Then there is 5a. Woe is me! We had to ban one leader's name, so slavish the devotion of his followers, and so adamant they were that he held the "new" truth. And one person keeps on posting his lousy, exegetically incorrect devotionals, having (rumour says!) received permission from the owner to post these trite and inflammatory devotionals. I once suggested to this person, if they found a devotional helpful, to write it out in their own words, explaining the parts that have helped them on their Christian journey. They declined and left the forum for a while. Because it HAS TO BE in the words of the master! Talk about RCC devotion of veneration for a heretical cult leader!!
With 5b, being those leaders themselves. In the past, Hagin, Copeland and other people who I can't imagine anyone following like Benny Hinn or Creflo Dollar, were the leaders. Now, all eyes are on the man in Singapore, with his strange and exegetically incorect "revelations" from God?? If they don't line up with Scripture, they aren't from God. And if they aren't from God, who are they from? Well, self and Satan come to mind. But that should be everyone's first clue this man is a liar. His visions and dreams do not line up with the Word of God. Sadly, some people seem to think if you are not following this false NEW revelation, well, you are stuck in rituals and rites. A dead religion. Well, a religious cult, with inspiration from who knows where is more likely the dead religion, not being inspired by the Holy Spirit!
Well, I guess time passes, and Cult leaders change.
So no, Grace777. Sometimes when you call a spade a spade, it is a spade. So calling Word Faith a cult, for being unorthodox, and Biblically incorrect, (everything from Greek definitions to continually taking every verse of out context to create something the Bible does not say!) is sometimes the truth.
And in this forum, which has a wide range of beliefs over many aspects of our faith, there are just times when a heresy in a cult just stands out above everything else. That is Word Faith and hypergrace! It is what it is!
Do you want me to start another thread on this heretical doctrine? Sad we have to rehash the same garbage over and over, because people are so unteachable, and get sucked into the influence of some cult leaders, who have decided to reinvent the biblical wheel and done it in a way that creates a totally evil and false doctrine!
But, I am ranting! My bad again!
I forgot to mention - I am not name calling or insulting! I am trying to point out again, that cults which follow unbiblical theological ideas exist. People follow them.
Saying some is in a cult, if it is true, is not an insult. It is true. Trying to share why they are wrong, using the bible in context, is not name calling. It is a desperate attempt by me and others to try and correct what are deadly doctrines, in the case of Word Faith.
Saying some is in a cult, if it is true, is not an insult. It is true. Trying to share why they are wrong, using the bible in context, is not name calling. It is a desperate attempt by me and others to try and correct what are deadly doctrines, in the case of Word Faith.
People are allowed to have a difference of opinion. I won't call them a cult if they don't deviate from the reality of Christ Himself.
Martin Luther was deemed to be of a "cult" because his view differed from 1,300 years of beliefs that the then established church had. He was a "heretic" for sure.
I could call people that refuse to believe in Christ's work on the cross a "cult" too.
Martin Luther was deemed to be of a "cult" because his view differed from 1,300 years of beliefs that the then established church had. He was a "heretic" for sure.
I could call people that refuse to believe in Christ's work on the cross a "cult" too.
How we are to view all the people that are supposedly heretics to someone or to some group.
For example to those that believe in speaking in tongues and actually do pray in tongues on a daily basis to their Father - they have been called heretics by whole denominations because they don't agree with this doctrine.
There are lot's of self-proclaimed heretic hunters on the internet. To them everyone is a heretic.
There are websites dedicated to the heretic Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.S. Lewis, John McArthur, Paul Washer, Joseph Prince, Dr. Michael Brown, Justin Peters, Bill Johnson, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Andrew Wommack...etc..basically anyone who is known has a website dedicated to their "heresies".
There are even websites dedicated to the heretic apostle Paul because his epistles "conflict" with some of Jesus' words.
Basically these self-proclaimed heretic hunters have a beef about some thing with what someone else believes and so they are now "heretics".
Their motto is: "If people don't believe some scriptures in the way that "they" do - they are heretics and they try to prove it with "their" version of what the scriptures say.." This is not what we were taught in "my" church or in our whole church tradition.
It's the nature of the beast. Martin Luther was a heretic to the catholic church at the time because for 1300 years prior to Luther they had always "believed" the same way.
Where these types cross the line is when they turn a disagreement that they have with someone doctrinally on a secondary issue and turn it into "So and so is a false teacher and they are in error and a cult - a heretic/satanist/controlled by a demon" type stuff.
Some of them have been hurt by others in the body of Christ so in malice they slander others that have a difference of opinion in some area - like healing or other non-essential doctrine and thus they are now a "cult".
For example to those that believe in speaking in tongues and actually do pray in tongues on a daily basis to their Father - they have been called heretics by whole denominations because they don't agree with this doctrine.
There are lot's of self-proclaimed heretic hunters on the internet. To them everyone is a heretic.
There are websites dedicated to the heretic Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.S. Lewis, John McArthur, Paul Washer, Joseph Prince, Dr. Michael Brown, Justin Peters, Bill Johnson, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Andrew Wommack...etc..basically anyone who is known has a website dedicated to their "heresies".
There are even websites dedicated to the heretic apostle Paul because his epistles "conflict" with some of Jesus' words.
Basically these self-proclaimed heretic hunters have a beef about some thing with what someone else believes and so they are now "heretics".
Their motto is: "If people don't believe some scriptures in the way that "they" do - they are heretics and they try to prove it with "their" version of what the scriptures say.." This is not what we were taught in "my" church or in our whole church tradition.
It's the nature of the beast. Martin Luther was a heretic to the catholic church at the time because for 1300 years prior to Luther they had always "believed" the same way.
Where these types cross the line is when they turn a disagreement that they have with someone doctrinally on a secondary issue and turn it into "So and so is a false teacher and they are in error and a cult - a heretic/satanist/controlled by a demon" type stuff.
Some of them have been hurt by others in the body of Christ so in malice they slander others that have a difference of opinion in some area - like healing or other non-essential doctrine and thus they are now a "cult".
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Oh right Angela!! Of course! Nooo name calling or insulting from you Angela.... sure!!! The woman who never calls people names., never tries to put others in their place...(behind you) Angela., of course you're just pointing out in your usual kind loving way and manner how evil those who don't agree with her are.....
It is apparent that every name that is in the media of some sort is a heretic to someone or to whole denominations.
The administrators of internet websites have the right to post their opinion on specific people or on doctrinal issues that they disagree with.
Personally I don't everything that any minister or denomination says about every subject.
How are we to view these calls from others that these people are in error? If they are in error in one area - does this mean that all that they teach is in error too?
How do we decipher what is error? To some error is different than it is to others depending on our church teachings and upbringing.
1) We are to judge all things by the word of God. The problem that I see is that some people's "application" of it can be different and thus we have different interpretations. We do know that we need the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of God to us as it does not come from natural understanding.
Without the revelation of the Spirit of God - the scriptures can sometimes become death instead of life with the wrong application of them.
2) Some say that we are to go by church traditions. That sounds good at the surface however the scribes and Pharisees used the "traditions" argument against Jesus. Paul too was accused by the religious establishment of going against the traditional ways of their faith.
Martin Luther was deemed a heretic because he went against 1,100 years of church traditions when he said "The just shall live by faith" He was deemed to be in error and they persecuted him to the point of trying to kill him.
This being "in error" concept seems to happen whenever the Spirit of God is emphasizing certain aspects of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul says in Col.2:8 that the traditions of men will take us captive. Col.2:6 says As we have received the Lord , so are we to walk "in Him".
I believe that we are just as dependent on the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to us as Mary was dependent on the Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.
The administrators of internet websites have the right to post their opinion on specific people or on doctrinal issues that they disagree with.
Personally I don't everything that any minister or denomination says about every subject.
How are we to view these calls from others that these people are in error? If they are in error in one area - does this mean that all that they teach is in error too?
How do we decipher what is error? To some error is different than it is to others depending on our church teachings and upbringing.
1) We are to judge all things by the word of God. The problem that I see is that some people's "application" of it can be different and thus we have different interpretations. We do know that we need the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of God to us as it does not come from natural understanding.
Without the revelation of the Spirit of God - the scriptures can sometimes become death instead of life with the wrong application of them.
2) Some say that we are to go by church traditions. That sounds good at the surface however the scribes and Pharisees used the "traditions" argument against Jesus. Paul too was accused by the religious establishment of going against the traditional ways of their faith.
Martin Luther was deemed a heretic because he went against 1,100 years of church traditions when he said "The just shall live by faith" He was deemed to be in error and they persecuted him to the point of trying to kill him.
This being "in error" concept seems to happen whenever the Spirit of God is emphasizing certain aspects of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul says in Col.2:8 that the traditions of men will take us captive. Col.2:6 says As we have received the Lord , so are we to walk "in Him".
I believe that we are just as dependent on the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to us as Mary was dependent on the Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.
I just thought of two other sources that is sometimes used as the "standard of truth".
Commentaries.
I personally love to read from commentaries and have about 1/2 dozen or so that I regularly view on some subject. There is an inherent problem with going by commentaries to determine truth - they can be giving out what their denomination has taught them in the past and so we "could be" in another church tradition type of situation be perpetuated.
Commentaries are basically what the author himself thinks about a passage or certain doctrine which is absolutely fine. I find that I get a part from one and a part from a different commentary and the Spirit of God uses them all in some aspect to reveal what He is speaking to me about.
The other one is Greek/Hebrew dictionaries. I find that they too can "sometimes add" their comments to what the actual meaning of the Greek words are which may or may not be entirely true. They "add" their "application" of the meaning of the words - which is fine. But I believe we need to be aware of such things too.
I absolutely love to read the meanings of words in the Greek/Hebrew dictionaries and glean many things that have helped me to grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Personally I believe all Christians should be reading the original words as technology has been made available the tools needed to do this - and you don't need to go to seminary to do this elementary study. If you don't use these tools you are "in serious error" and qualify for "cult status".
( just kidding - using the play on the term being in error just in case you don't agree with me... )
In my opinion - Without the revelation of the Holy Spirit revealing the things of God to us - we can easily create our own religion that displaces the work of Christ in our lives and thus nullify the grace of God that is available for us for life and living.
Commentaries.
I personally love to read from commentaries and have about 1/2 dozen or so that I regularly view on some subject. There is an inherent problem with going by commentaries to determine truth - they can be giving out what their denomination has taught them in the past and so we "could be" in another church tradition type of situation be perpetuated.
Commentaries are basically what the author himself thinks about a passage or certain doctrine which is absolutely fine. I find that I get a part from one and a part from a different commentary and the Spirit of God uses them all in some aspect to reveal what He is speaking to me about.
The other one is Greek/Hebrew dictionaries. I find that they too can "sometimes add" their comments to what the actual meaning of the Greek words are which may or may not be entirely true. They "add" their "application" of the meaning of the words - which is fine. But I believe we need to be aware of such things too.
I absolutely love to read the meanings of words in the Greek/Hebrew dictionaries and glean many things that have helped me to grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Personally I believe all Christians should be reading the original words as technology has been made available the tools needed to do this - and you don't need to go to seminary to do this elementary study. If you don't use these tools you are "in serious error" and qualify for "cult status".
( just kidding - using the play on the term being in error just in case you don't agree with me...
)In my opinion - Without the revelation of the Holy Spirit revealing the things of God to us - we can easily create our own religion that displaces the work of Christ in our lives and thus nullify the grace of God that is available for us for life and living.
I like this subject and have considered it a lot over the past number of years so I'll post my random thoughts on "truth" in Christ.
It's ok if you disagree - I won't call you names or insult you nor de-mean you by trying to "lord it over your faith". I won't chastise you because your knowledge of Greek is "not like mine" ( as if that is the criteria for revelation knowledge ) - if you don't agree with some or all aspects of what I am sharing.
The other aspect is that all of us only see in part and as Paul said " Those that think they know something - don't know it as they ought to know it".
We are all learning about this walk with our Lord together and we need each other.
I always ask myself 3 questions about truth or a teaching.
1) Does it make Jesus bigger in your heart when you see His work and majesty? ( Or does it bring fear and insecurity because you are not "doing" enough to stay saved? )
2) Does it make you depend on Jesus and His finished work? ( or does it depend on what you do and depend on yourself?)
3) Does it make you fall deeply in love with your Lord, our Father and with all people? (Or does it make you view God as being a heavy task-master and so we view others as accursed, hated by God...etc - even though He loves them so much He sent His Son to die for them )
If I can answer these questions in the affirmative - then it is the good news of the grace of Christ.
We can view scriptures through the lens of the Old Covenant and then try to mix in a little of the New Covenant and we end up in mess of "working to maintain" our own righteousness for going to heaven.
When ever we don't factor in the finished work of Christ nor the real purpose for Jesus dying for us - the fact that God loves us dearly and He is not looking for ways to keep people from Him - we will end up in error as we are mixing up the covenants.
Bearing fruit stems from the life of Christ in us. He is the Vine we are the branches. The branch does not produce it's own fruit. It bears the life of the Vine.
The fruit of the Spirit being produced is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, meekness, goodness, faith and self-control. Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit of God living in us - not a product of self-effort in the flesh. There are counterfeits of all these fruit that the flesh can try to generate but they are not from God.
There is good fruit and bad fruit of the flesh - but it is still flesh. Outwardly these are sometimes hard to discern. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil had both types of fruit on it. Don't eat from that tree.
Eat from the tree of life - Christ = who is inside of us wanting to bear His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world as well as to our fellow brethren. We are one with Him in the spirit.
Let's keep beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord and the Holy Spirit will transforms us outwardly to reflect our true nature in our new creations in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
Those are my thoughts on how I view a teaching from anyone and there is no one teacher I agree with fully on every subject no matter who they are or the number of people that listen to any one person.
I hope in 2 years I will not agree with all that I believe now as I see new truths of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father. I look forward to repenting as I see new facets of the love and grace of God toward us that are in Christ.
It's ok if you disagree - I won't call you names or insult you nor de-mean you by trying to "lord it over your faith". I won't chastise you because your knowledge of Greek is "not like mine" ( as if that is the criteria for revelation knowledge ) - if you don't agree with some or all aspects of what I am sharing.
The other aspect is that all of us only see in part and as Paul said " Those that think they know something - don't know it as they ought to know it".
We are all learning about this walk with our Lord together and we need each other.
I always ask myself 3 questions about truth or a teaching.
1) Does it make Jesus bigger in your heart when you see His work and majesty? ( Or does it bring fear and insecurity because you are not "doing" enough to stay saved? )
2) Does it make you depend on Jesus and His finished work? ( or does it depend on what you do and depend on yourself?)
3) Does it make you fall deeply in love with your Lord, our Father and with all people? (Or does it make you view God as being a heavy task-master and so we view others as accursed, hated by God...etc - even though He loves them so much He sent His Son to die for them )
If I can answer these questions in the affirmative - then it is the good news of the grace of Christ.
We can view scriptures through the lens of the Old Covenant and then try to mix in a little of the New Covenant and we end up in mess of "working to maintain" our own righteousness for going to heaven.
When ever we don't factor in the finished work of Christ nor the real purpose for Jesus dying for us - the fact that God loves us dearly and He is not looking for ways to keep people from Him - we will end up in error as we are mixing up the covenants.
Bearing fruit stems from the life of Christ in us. He is the Vine we are the branches. The branch does not produce it's own fruit. It bears the life of the Vine.
The fruit of the Spirit being produced is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, meekness, goodness, faith and self-control. Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit of God living in us - not a product of self-effort in the flesh. There are counterfeits of all these fruit that the flesh can try to generate but they are not from God.
There is good fruit and bad fruit of the flesh - but it is still flesh. Outwardly these are sometimes hard to discern. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil had both types of fruit on it. Don't eat from that tree.
Eat from the tree of life - Christ = who is inside of us wanting to bear His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world as well as to our fellow brethren. We are one with Him in the spirit.
Let's keep beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord and the Holy Spirit will transforms us outwardly to reflect our true nature in our new creations in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
Those are my thoughts on how I view a teaching from anyone and there is no one teacher I agree with fully on every subject no matter who they are or the number of people that listen to any one person.
I hope in 2 years I will not agree with all that I believe now as I see new truths of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father. I look forward to repenting as I see new facets of the love and grace of God toward us that are in Christ.
Thank you for another fine post Grace777 .
I've often and still do at times want to come back with some smart Alec words and ZAP back. But remember how after I did it gave me no joy. I still can think of words I'd like to say but I know they are not blessed by God.
I've watched the latest politics on tv this last election and saw the way the media presents the news. I've concurred they report false news. And the way they take someone's words and twist them is shameless. Or even if they only present part of what someone said they know the way to down their opponent with few words and it looks like they didn't do it at all.
Innuendo is used a lot. Casting doubt on someone's reputation is so easy. Sometimes just the accusation is enough. When I remember this kind of character assassination I find it much easier to not answer back when someone accuses me of something I'm not guilty of. There is no sweetness in revenge like the world says. It later is like something rotting inside and it makes us sick.
The written word and the tongue have the power to do major damage. We are warned about it being a such a little member like the small wheel that steers great ships or bits in big horses mouths. The tongue is set on fire in hell. I see how on the news many people who were loved by many are now hated based on words.
Do I want to be a part of that kind of use of my tongue or my words written? No.