Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[P1LGR1M]

nope. They did have a measure of the HS before pentecost. The same as today,salvation = measure of HS.......Baptism of HS = the second work as it did then.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

And we see that the disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost here, but were simply commanded to 4eceive Him when He came.

The Comforter could not come uñtil Christ returned to Heaven:

[h=1]John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)[/h]

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


The teaching that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is a subsequent work in salvation is perhaps one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the Çhurch by teachers who create a false dichotomy within the Body of Christ, that there are those who are merely saved, and the the super-christians among us who have also been Baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Here...

[h=1]Acts 1:4-9

King James Version (KJV)[/h]
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.


5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.



...it is clear that just as Christ taught the Comforter had not come, because Christ had not yet departed. They did in fact receive power when they received the Holy Ghost, but let's not forget that they are in fact receiving the Holy Ghost, in His ministry as Comforter, at this time.

When exhortation for Holy Ghost empowerment is in view, this is called being filled with the Spirit, not being baptized with Him.


God bless.

 

[Hoffco]

Jesus is so clear when He spoke to Nicodemus, Jh.3:5 "...I say to you, unless one is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (water is the natural birth of the mother and Spirit is the supernatural birth of the Spirit) Then Jesus say of the eleven disciples being washed, in Jh.13:10: ""...you are clean, but not all of you." This can only mean one thing, "...the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit." Tit.3:5 Here regeneration is pictured as "washed" as with water, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. Eph.5:26"That He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word," Jesus give the new birth ,as does the Holy Spirit and the Father. as in James 1:18,"The Father" "Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth,...." Once we are cleansed and renewed Christ and the Spirit and the Father come into and abides in us. This is the truth of the eternal cov. of GRACE, by which all the "elect" of God ,in all ages, have been saved. The "mystery" Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

You have to get use to Jesus speaking off the cuff, as out of both sides of His mouth, as to deceive people into an error to drive them away. or to teach a new side of the truth to the disciples but to deceive the multitude, which were not born again, so, had NO ears to hear the truth. Hoffco

 

[P1LGR1M]

Jesus is so clear when He spoke to Nicodemus, Jh.3:5 "...I say to you, unless one is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (water is the natural birth of the mother and Spirit is the supernatural birth of the Spirit) Then Jesus say of the eleven disciples being washed, in Jh.13:10: ""...you are clean, but not all of you." This can only mean one thing, "...the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit." Tit.3:5 Here regeneration is pictured as "washed" as with water, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. Eph.5:26"That He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word," Jesus give the new birth ,as does the Holy Spirit and the Father. as in James 1:18,"The Father" "Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth,...." Once we are cleansed and renewed Christ and the Spirit and the Father come into and abides in us. This is the truth of the eternal cov. of GRACE, by which all the "elect" of God ,in all ages, have been saved. The "mystery" Hoffco

You really need to make up your mind if the water is physical birth or the washing of water by the Word, as taught by Christ in John 15.

I am taking my leave of this forum, Hoffco, and all I would say is I encourage you to go through the thread and address the posts that already respond to the objections you continue to raise.

Understand that your position creates a false dichotomy among believers which teaches some are born again but not necessarily indwelt of God. Your position has men that rejected the Gospel and denied the resurrection as born again believers, rather than Old Testament Saints as all of the disciples were until Pentecost.

All of that is already addressed in this thread, so if you care to challenge your position, I would suggest you address that which addresses whether men were born again before Pentecost or not.

May God richly bless your ministry, my friend.


God bless.

 

[Hoffco]

I obviously do not present a false dichotomy between law and grace or between faith and law, or between faith and works. I have presented contextual reasons that unite the whole body of truth in the Bible. Paul was careful to say that law is not opposed to faith or to grace; Both faith and grace establish the moral law for the New T. believer. The OLD T. did the same but in a mysterious manner which hide the full truth. In the N.T. the full teaching of the O.T. is brought to light for all to see. The O.& the N. testaments are united under the ONE eternal covenant of God's saving GRACE. Rom.8:29-30 When you present a different way of salvation for the O.T.believers and the N.T. believers, YOU destroy the unity of the Bible and the unity of the people of God in both O.&N. testaments. God has ONLY one Church, one Flock and one Olive tree ,ONE people of GOD.! You need to analyze each passage separately and the synizesis them together correctly, by topics, to make one systematic teaching of each topic of the whole Bible. No passage should contradict another; All passages should compliment each other on the same topic. Each topic can get very complicated and deep with various sides of the truth,(topic). Israel is not the same as the Church ;But in the O.T. most of the Church of Christ came out of the nation of Israel. This is the big problem of the dispensationalists: they equate the Church with israel, bad, because MOST of Israel were lost people. Sad to say, most people in churches are lost today; that is the parallel. Most "born again" people are lost today. I am not the only theologian to say this.! And, as we can see from natural revelation, Israel has a part to play in God's future events of the "end times". Jesus is coming soon.!

 

[Hoffco]

I should make it clear to Pilgram, you have put me in the wrong camp. I do not teach that a sinner can be born of God and still live in sin. The new birth is the implantation of the holy nature of God into the sinner as well as the endwelling of the Godhead with in our spirits.