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Genesis 41:38
[SUP]38 [/SUP] And Pharaoh said to his servants, "Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?"
Numbers 27:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And the LORD said to Moses: "Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;
Daniel 4:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But at last Daniel came before me (his name is Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god; in him is the Spirit of the Holy God), and I told the dream before him, saying:
Yes, the Holy Spirit was in certain people in the Old Testament. Not everyone had the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was temporary at best.
[SUP]38 [/SUP] And Pharaoh said to his servants, "Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?"
Numbers 27:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And the LORD said to Moses: "Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;
Daniel 4:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But at last Daniel came before me (his name is Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god; in him is the Spirit of the Holy God), and I told the dream before him, saying:
Yes, the Holy Spirit was in certain people in the Old Testament. Not everyone had the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was temporary at best.
H
You are missing a vital point ; we are born again by the power of God, the spoken word of god to our hearts. Not just by the WRITTEN word of God , but by the SPOKEN wotd of God to our hearts, And by the eternal WORD of GOD, the eternal SON of God , who gave the new birth to Abraham and Adam and all the "elect of all ages.!!Rom. 8:29-30 is the eternal plan of God for salvation of all the elect" of all ages. All"elect" are "called" =born of God.
P
So explain why Paul wrote...
Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
...?
Of course we can see the Gospel in the Old Testament, that doesn't mean that the Old Testament Saint understood it.
Peter, for example, had no clue as to what this meant...
Isaiah 53
King James Version (KJV)
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
If he had, he would not have rebuked the Lord when the Lord gave him the Gospel:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
I agree the Gospel is found in the Old Testament, but, what is not found is the revelation of the Gospel which is given through the Spirit of God under New Covenant conditions:
1 Corinthians 2
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[SUP]7[/SUP]But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
What eye hath not heard, nor ear heard, neither entered in the heart of man...is not how wonderful Heaven is going to be, as most preach this passage.
It is the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.
This is the hidden Wisdom of God which, had men known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. Satan himself would have assembled the greatest protection detail ever known to man, to make sure that no harm befell the Christ.
You are imposing understanding into the Old Testament which was simply not there. You won't find the first believing disciple of Christ, they all were unbelieving of His Resurrection.
God bless.
Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
...?
Of course we can see the Gospel in the Old Testament, that doesn't mean that the Old Testament Saint understood it.
Peter, for example, had no clue as to what this meant...
Isaiah 53
King James Version (KJV)
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
If he had, he would not have rebuked the Lord when the Lord gave him the Gospel:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
I agree the Gospel is found in the Old Testament, but, what is not found is the revelation of the Gospel which is given through the Spirit of God under New Covenant conditions:
1 Corinthians 2
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[SUP]7[/SUP]But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
What eye hath not heard, nor ear heard, neither entered in the heart of man...is not how wonderful Heaven is going to be, as most preach this passage.
It is the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.
This is the hidden Wisdom of God which, had men known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. Satan himself would have assembled the greatest protection detail ever known to man, to make sure that no harm befell the Christ.
You are imposing understanding into the Old Testament which was simply not there. You won't find the first believing disciple of Christ, they all were unbelieving of His Resurrection.
God bless.
P
And that is what changed:
John 14:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
If you review the thread you will see no-one is denying that the Spirit of God ministered to and through men. That doesn't change the fact that the Comforter began a Minsitry that was not effected in the Old Testament, and that ministry coincides with the Cross.
God bless.
John 14:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
If you review the thread you will see no-one is denying that the Spirit of God ministered to and through men. That doesn't change the fact that the Comforter began a Minsitry that was not effected in the Old Testament, and that ministry coincides with the Cross.
God bless.
K
Jesus died once for all- all in the past who obeyed God, and all in the future who would obey God. The blood of animals in the Old Testament did not take away sin, But their obedience put their sin debt on hold until Christ died on the cross. Then when His church was established, so was the way into it (being born again/baptized). But to ask if Old Testament people were born again is the same as to ask if New Testament people were saved in the ark- the answer is both yes and no, depending on how literally you are speaking. 1 Peter 3:21 says that being saved by the ark represents baptism which now saves us. It is the same concept, and depended on which time frame you lived in. God parting the sea through Moses is another representation of God saving His people. Anyone in any time period who died in an obedient state to God has past from death, and are born into life.
If you tell people Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth(Rom 10:4) most assume this does not include the Ten Commandments/moral law. For it is not logical to the rational mind to remove a law of righteousness from the very law which is the enshrinement of love God and love your neighbour. People believe to give you a righteousness apart from these laws is giving you a licence to sin. This would be true, if the new covenant only hinged on one core fact-Christ dying for your sins at Calvary(you have a righteousness apart from the whole law) But the new covenant does not hinge on one core point , but two core points:
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]Heb 10:16&17[/SUP]
What does it mean to have God's laws written on your mind and placed on your heart? If we understand the enormity of what this means, we understand there is no licence to sin by Christ being the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth.
I like the way the living bible puts verse 16. In your mind you know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to obey. You have been supernaturally changed into someone who in your heart wants to obey God. In this sense you have been born again of the Holy Spirit, you have been changed from someone who lives to please yourself, into someone who in your heart wants to obey God. Whereas before this event takes place you can happily sin without conscience, now you cannot. Your conscience will be seered if you wilfully sin, for the law has been placed on your heart.This change that comes over the Christian cannot be overemphasised. It cuts out the licence to sin. No one who has been born again of the Holy Spirit and loves God can view Christ being the end of the law unto righteousness as an excuse to sin as much as they want. It cannot happen.
God is not stupid, he didn't create a covenant that gave anyone a licence to sin by Christ dying for their sins at Calvary. Jesus said to nicodemus:
Ye must be born again. Without this happening you cannot be in the new covenant, for you would view Christ dying to pay the price of your sin as a licence to sin, hence Jesus words. Jesus will only be your saviour from sin if you have been born again of the spirit, for he will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart desire to obey his father.
Were people born again under the old covenant? Their history proves they were not. For born again people want in their hearts to obey God!
Understand Paul and you understand grace. To Paul obedience comes by knowing you are not under a law of righteousness before God, just the opposite of what many Christians believe would be the result of accepting such a righteousness before God.
We could considerwhy Paul believed sin would not be your master for you are not under a law of righteousness before God, but that would be to derail the thread
so I will stop here
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]Heb 10:16&17[/SUP]
What does it mean to have God's laws written on your mind and placed on your heart? If we understand the enormity of what this means, we understand there is no licence to sin by Christ being the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth.
I like the way the living bible puts verse 16. In your mind you know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to obey. You have been supernaturally changed into someone who in your heart wants to obey God. In this sense you have been born again of the Holy Spirit, you have been changed from someone who lives to please yourself, into someone who in your heart wants to obey God. Whereas before this event takes place you can happily sin without conscience, now you cannot. Your conscience will be seered if you wilfully sin, for the law has been placed on your heart.This change that comes over the Christian cannot be overemphasised. It cuts out the licence to sin. No one who has been born again of the Holy Spirit and loves God can view Christ being the end of the law unto righteousness as an excuse to sin as much as they want. It cannot happen.
God is not stupid, he didn't create a covenant that gave anyone a licence to sin by Christ dying for their sins at Calvary. Jesus said to nicodemus:
Ye must be born again. Without this happening you cannot be in the new covenant, for you would view Christ dying to pay the price of your sin as a licence to sin, hence Jesus words. Jesus will only be your saviour from sin if you have been born again of the spirit, for he will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart desire to obey his father.
Were people born again under the old covenant? Their history proves they were not. For born again people want in their hearts to obey God!
Understand Paul and you understand grace. To Paul obedience comes by knowing you are not under a law of righteousness before God, just the opposite of what many Christians believe would be the result of accepting such a righteousness before God.
We could considerwhy Paul believed sin would not be your master for you are not under a law of righteousness before God, but that would be to derail the thread
so I will stop here
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P
New Birth as taught in the New Testament is quite different than the salvation received by the Just of the Old Testament.
When we are born again in this Age we are eternally indwelt of God, forgiven our sins in completion, and this is the reconciliatory Work of Christ. The Old Testament Saints were very much "saved," but this from an eternal perspective nullify the fact that they all died not having received the promise/s. The Promise/s of the New Covenant were bestowed when Christ died and rose again, not before.
When Noah and the Seven climbed aboard the Ark, they were saved physically. Noah was a beneficiary of God's grace long before he built the Ark. When he got off of that boat, he sacrificed for sin. When he died, the last sacrifice for sin he would have offered was the death of an animal in his place, for his sin.
That does not establish eternal redemption, but the provisional atonement and remission of sins that all Old Testament Saints had access to.
Again...
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
There is no Old Testament equivalent to the New Covenant removal of sins, where men are reconciled to God through Christ.
One is not reconciled to God apart from God removing the penalty of sin, and restoring the relationship lost in Adam.
The Life we receive is the very Life of God, because it is God we receive when we are born again. We are new creatures, not because God renovates what is there, but because He is there, which is something that was not the case prior to salvation in Christ.
Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
The "washing of regeneration" refers to the cleansing God performs in salvation, which includes the "new creature" which is contrasted with the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" which many may think refers to the one being saved being renewed, but that is covered in the "washing of regeneration. The renewing of the Holy Ghost is the Reconciliation, whereby the believer is made one with God.
That is the remedy of man's primary malady...separation from God.
Most think Hell is for those who sin, whereas the truth is that sin is simply the inevitable result of man's separation from God.
The New Birth is the union of God and man, and this did not occur in the Old Testament. While men were "saved" and this by grace through faith (and faith is confirmed by obedience), we see that the Holy Ghost did not permanently indwell believers. Under New Covenant standards this was a promise of God.
God bless.
P
Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here but Paul said that God has the power to establish you as is stated in:
- Paul's Gospel.
- The preaching of Jesus Christ.
- The revelation of the mystery.
- The scriptures of the prophets.
- The commandment of God.
And all of it is according to the revelation of the Mystery.
We can take it further, though:
Romans 10:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him
of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them
that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Now let me ask you: was the good news Isaiah preached "Believe on the Risen Lord and you will be saved?"
The "Gospel" is in every Age that divine directive given by God. When Isaiah ministered he ministered under Law. He did not reveal the Mystery of the Gospel, though he certainly in many places preached the Gospel (i.e, Isaiah 42, 53).
We have to acknowledge that Paul teaches the Gospel was a mystery, secret, hidden, and revealed in this day. And if the Gospel was a mystery, then God was not making men culpable for the Gospel in those Ages, but the gospel that was provided to them.
God bless.
P
Here:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter was carnal in his perception of what Christ was going to do.
We see Peter take up the sword to keep Christ from the Cross, and the Lord asks him a simple question:
John 18:11
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
And Peter would, in just a few short hours...deny he even knew the Lord.
Then we see that the disciples do not believe the Lord is resurrected:
Luke 24
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they remembered his words,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Mark 16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
The disciples can be seen here as not having an understanding of the Gospel of Christ.
That would not happen until they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which was the fulfillment of Christ's teaching in John 14 and 16. It is the receiving of the Promised Spirit foretold in the Old Testament but not understood until it took place.
Immediately after receiving the Spirit of God the disciples would immediately begin fulfilling the Great Commission, preaching Christ and making disciples.
God bless.
P
Who has said anything about license to sin in this thread?
The New Covenant has "two core points?"
How about discussing what it means to be born again?
Me, I am not a big fan of paraphrases, they tend to lead one to philosophize about the Word of God, which usually results in a rather unfocused approach to both His Word and is evidenced in discussion.
The New Birth is not an intellectual endeavor, it is the power of God unto salvation.
The natural man does not "know in his mind how God wants him to live," he thinks he is perfectly capable of living a good life on his own, in the intellectual prowess he mistakenly thinks he has.
Throughout history no man has ever come up in his intellectual capacity an understanding of God's will. God has always initiated relationship with man and revealed to him that which is God's will.
Your rabbit trail of license to sin is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
No kidding.
Who has said that in this thread?
And the fact is the new birth is not something visible. It is not an event which men observe, nor do they get into the musings you present here.
It is very simple: the Comforter enlightens the natural mind to the conditions which are real, and brings conviction in regards to sin (that men sin), righteousness (that the only One righteous is Christ, and that they are not), and judgment (that they are headed to an eternity of separation from God, being shown they are already separated and that Christ is the only remedy for that).
In your attempt to preach about license to sin, you muddle the realities of salvation.
Talk about being confused. In the Lordship Salvation thread you, and many others, cannot grasp that Lordship Salvation deals with what takes place after salvation. Here, we are discussing how men are saved...and you are talking about license to sin.
Amazing.
Tell that to Peter when Paul confronted him for his hypocrisy.
I would suggest you understand God...and then you will understand grace.
Christ, not Paul...reveals grace.
Paul very much warned believers not to let sin have mastery over them.
He did not preach a mushy "You will never sin" message to believers, but he taught the same diligence and vigilance that Peter taught, making clear the distinctions between the New Birth and the fact we remain in unredeemed flesh.
but that would be to derail the threadso I will stop here
so I will stop here
God bless.
Who has said anything about license to sin in this thread?
It is good to show why a licence to sin is removed as Christ is the end of the law unto righjteousness
The New Covenant has "two core points?"
Didn't you know that?
It is written very plainly in Heb10:16&17
How about discussing what it means to be born again?
I already have, but we can go into it in greater detail if you like
Me, I am not a big fan of paraphrases, they tend to lead one to philosophize about the Word of God, which usually results in a rather unfocused approach to both His Word and is evidenced in discussion.
I imagined you would say something like that! However, in this case the verse was rather well put
The New Birth is not an intellectual endeavor, it is the power of God unto salvation.
The natural man does not "know in his mind how God wants him to live," he thinks he is perfectly capable of living a good life on his own, in the intellectual prowess he mistakenly thinks he has.
Absolutely!
Throughout history no man has ever come up in his intellectual capacity an understanding of God's will. God has always initiated relationship with man and revealed to him that which is God's will.
Agreed
Your rabbit trail of license to sin is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
I think it is always relevant in Christian forums when speaking of grace
No kidding.
Who has said that in this thread?
And the fact is the new birth is not something visible. It is not an event which men observe, nor do they get into the musings you present here.
The result of the new birth is evident over time for all to see, but at the moment of conception to the individual
It is very simple: the Comforter enlightens the natural mind to the conditions which are real, and brings conviction in regards to sin (that men sin), righteousness (that the only One righteous is Christ, and that they are not), and judgment (that they are headed to an eternity of separation from God, being shown they are already separated and that Christ is the only remedy for that).
I wonder if you would give me your opion of the question I asked you yesterday?
Is it possible in your view for a person to be born again but not understand the message of grace which gives them victory over sin?
In your attempt to preach about license to sin, you muddle the realities of salvation.
No I have not muddied them
Talk about being confused. In the Lordship Salvation thread you, and many others, cannot grasp that Lordship Salvation deals with what takes place after salvation. Here, we are discussing how men are saved...and you are talking about license to sin.
Amazing.
I have to wonder why you are so upset
Tell that to Peter when Paul confronted him for his hypocrisy.
I would suggest you understand God...and then you will understand grace.
Christ, not Paul...reveals grace.
As mentioned, Christ told the disciples he was limited in what he could explain to them in regard of sin, righteousness and judgement. They are all subjects to do with grace. Paul explained that Gospel.
I have found many who have studied hugely but do not understand much of what Paul wrote. But I am more than happy to discuss grace with you, rather than throwing accusations around as to what people do or do not know of the subject
Paul very much warned believers not to let sin have mastery over them.
He also taught them how sin was to be overcome. There is no point telling someone not to let sin have mastery over them, unless you can explain to them the way to victory over it
He did not preach a mushy "You will never sin" message to believers, but he taught the same diligence and vigilance that Peter taught, making clear the distinctions between the New Birth and the fact we remain in unredeemed flesh.
Obviously
It's okay, none of the other off-topic philosophizing has derailed the thread so far, so I doubt yours will either.
God bless.
God Bless...
But if you could just satisfy my curiosity on a point I raised yesterday but you didn't respond to.
In your opinion, is it possible for someone to be born again, and yet not understand they have a righteousness apart from the law. In other words, could they mistakenly believe Jesus only died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion but still be born again at the same time?
Therefore in reality they live under a law of righteousness as a Christian, not grace
Could such a person as described be born again in your view?
In your opinion, is it possible for someone to be born again, and yet not understand they have a righteousness apart from the law. In other words, could they mistakenly believe Jesus only died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion but still be born again at the same time?
Therefore in reality they live under a law of righteousness as a Christian, not grace
Could such a person as described be born again in your view?
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R
Good morning, all.
While casually browsing of the internet as I drink my morning coffee, I found myself here. I signed up and registered an account on this forum, specifically to put in my 2 cents on this topic (which will probably be much more than 2 cents). And I'm not too busy in the office today.
I'm not much for internet discussions or forum chat, as I know how they tend to disintegrate into meaningless name calling and hurt feelings and anger and so forth, but I'm going to give it a go this time as it is a Christian oriented forum. This is my very first post on this forum.
***Please read the following with an open mind, without the theological baggage that everyone one of us carry with us. I truly believe this is the only way to understand the scriptures.
The question - referring to being "born again" before Pentecost or not, is a question that has a lengthy explanation. I will be as brief as possible in articulating what I believe to be true as I understand the scriptures. It will, I REPEAT, it will rub some of you the wrong way. It did as well to me when I first learned and understood and believed (with great resistance) some time ago. Please remember thus: The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior, and through Him we have redemption of sins through his blood sacrifice on the cross, and our belief in him is the only way in which we have the hope of salvation. I'm sure we can all agree on that previous sentence. It is my foundation, as I'm sure it is all of yours. Now, with that being said, let me finally get to the question at hand.
This question cannot be understood without correcting what is a fundamental misunderstanding of what happens to ALL people when they die. In short, they die. We do not have an immortal soul. We do not go to heaven when we die. We do not go to hell when we die. We die, and we will only have an 'afterlife' if we are resurrected. If there is no resurrection, we will decay in our graves. Consider the original decree of God to the man after he sinned in the garden.
By the sweat of your faceYou will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now, we as Christians have grown up believing that the previous decree of God means that man died "spiritually" on that day. But the scripture never states that. We have added that in. Man died physically, naturally, and the process of death began on that day (literally translated it should read "dying, thou dost die" or "unto death, you shall be dying"). It is a process, as we are taught from Gen 3: 17-19, it does not say that the man died on that very day, as some will argue. Similar parts of speech can be found in 1 Kings 2:37. God also told Abraham, literally, "in blessing I will bless you", and "in multiplying I will multiply you". It is a figure of speech that guarantees the outcome of death, or in the other examples, blessing, or multiplying.
We are not spiritual beings, the scripture never states that we are spiritual beings. Conversely, the scriptures repetitively declare that we are natural and earthy. Remember, we are a product of the dust, or the actual literal soil of the ground, and are animated by the breath of life from God, and the union of those 2 things are that we became a "living soul". (Nephesh in Hebrew). Oh, and by the way, the animals also are called living souls before Genesis 2:7, because they too have an earthy created body from the ground and have life in them because of the breath of God. We don't have an immaterial and immortal part of us that resides inside of us called a soul. We ARE a LIVING SOUL. It is the union of the breath and the dirt of the ground. We are not spiritual until after we are resurrected. Consider 1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
The English word, "soul", has a certain connotation that we all have grown to understand, as being an immaterial and immortal 'divine spark' that resides in all humanity. That is a concept that is not scriptural. 'Divine Spark' is not in the bible. This is derived from Greek philosophy, which was and still is influenced on Christian theology. Before Jesus was even born, Plato and Aristotle were heavily influencing all in that region of the world the concept of "soul", that it was the "purity of God", and that it was housed in an evil "prison" of the body. Death was considered to be a great release of the prison of this shell of a body, containing a soul. Read the account of the suicide of Socrates by Plato in 'Phaedo', and compare its peaceful consummation and 'release of the soul' with the agony and pain of the death of Jesus. Such concepts are not scriptural, but are Greek philosophy that we still are effected by today.
Consider the following passages of scripture as they relate to the destiny of mankind.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (NASB) 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Psalm 146:1-4 (NASB) Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul! 2 I will praise the Lord while I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. (note: A Psalm of David - also see the next passage..)
Psalm 6:5 (NASB) 4 Return, O Lord, rescue my soul; Save me because of Your lovingkindness. 5 For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
(note: King David was grieved at the very thought of dying because he knew that in death, he would no longer be able to praise the Lord. Oh that we would have that same attitude, to have a heart that loved God so much that we would miss it if we died because we would no longer be able to praise him! Don't you thing that if King David died and went to heaven, he would be praising God? He's not, cause he's not there. See the next scriptural evidence of this.)
Acts 2:29-35 (NASB) 29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’ (-Note: If King David, prophet of the most high God, a man after Gods own heart, the ancestor of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ, the one on whose throne the Son of God shall sit upon and rule over the earth at the inauguration of the Kingdom of God holding the scepter of righteousness - If he isn't in heaven - what hope do YOU have? What hope do I have?) But our hope is the same, resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ, but not before then.
Acts 13:36-37 (NASB) 36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay; 37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay
Psalm 104:29 (NASB) (Speaking of all of Gods creation, man and beasts in Psalm 104) “You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit (breath), they expire and return to their dust.”
Psalm 115:16-17 (NASB) The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, But the earth He has given to the sons of men. 17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor do any who go down into silence
John 3:13 (NASB) 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
John 11:23-26, 43-44. (Easier to read all of John 11) 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” (notice that Martha knew her eschatology! She knew that it was only in the resurrection that Lazarus would rise from the dead!) 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die (into the age, lit. - Translators left out this entire phrase). Do you believe this?” 43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus *said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
1 Tim. 6:14-16 (NASB) 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (whom is the only one that is immortal?)
---- man this is getting long. I apologize, but like I said at the beginning, not a quick answer. ----
I could go on and on quoting scriptures that say that when man dies, he dies - and the only hope that he has is the resurrection of the dead. There are so very many more. What does Job ask in Job 14? He asks the question, "If a man dies, will he live again?" Notice that he does NOT ask, 'If a man dies, will he continue to live?' or 'Where does a man go when he dies?'
While casually browsing of the internet as I drink my morning coffee, I found myself here. I signed up and registered an account on this forum, specifically to put in my 2 cents on this topic (which will probably be much more than 2 cents). And I'm not too busy in the office today
.I'm not much for internet discussions or forum chat, as I know how they tend to disintegrate into meaningless name calling and hurt feelings and anger and so forth, but I'm going to give it a go this time as it is a Christian oriented forum. This is my very first post on this forum.
***Please read the following with an open mind, without the theological baggage that everyone one of us carry with us. I truly believe this is the only way to understand the scriptures.
The question - referring to being "born again" before Pentecost or not, is a question that has a lengthy explanation. I will be as brief as possible in articulating what I believe to be true as I understand the scriptures. It will, I REPEAT, it will rub some of you the wrong way. It did as well to me when I first learned and understood and believed (with great resistance) some time ago. Please remember thus: The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior, and through Him we have redemption of sins through his blood sacrifice on the cross, and our belief in him is the only way in which we have the hope of salvation. I'm sure we can all agree on that previous sentence. It is my foundation, as I'm sure it is all of yours. Now, with that being said, let me finally get to the question at hand.
This question cannot be understood without correcting what is a fundamental misunderstanding of what happens to ALL people when they die. In short, they die. We do not have an immortal soul. We do not go to heaven when we die. We do not go to hell when we die. We die, and we will only have an 'afterlife' if we are resurrected. If there is no resurrection, we will decay in our graves. Consider the original decree of God to the man after he sinned in the garden.
By the sweat of your faceYou will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now, we as Christians have grown up believing that the previous decree of God means that man died "spiritually" on that day. But the scripture never states that. We have added that in. Man died physically, naturally, and the process of death began on that day (literally translated it should read "dying, thou dost die" or "unto death, you shall be dying"). It is a process, as we are taught from Gen 3: 17-19, it does not say that the man died on that very day, as some will argue. Similar parts of speech can be found in 1 Kings 2:37. God also told Abraham, literally, "in blessing I will bless you", and "in multiplying I will multiply you". It is a figure of speech that guarantees the outcome of death, or in the other examples, blessing, or multiplying.
We are not spiritual beings, the scripture never states that we are spiritual beings. Conversely, the scriptures repetitively declare that we are natural and earthy. Remember, we are a product of the dust, or the actual literal soil of the ground, and are animated by the breath of life from God, and the union of those 2 things are that we became a "living soul". (Nephesh in Hebrew). Oh, and by the way, the animals also are called living souls before Genesis 2:7, because they too have an earthy created body from the ground and have life in them because of the breath of God. We don't have an immaterial and immortal part of us that resides inside of us called a soul. We ARE a LIVING SOUL. It is the union of the breath and the dirt of the ground. We are not spiritual until after we are resurrected. Consider 1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
The English word, "soul", has a certain connotation that we all have grown to understand, as being an immaterial and immortal 'divine spark' that resides in all humanity. That is a concept that is not scriptural. 'Divine Spark' is not in the bible. This is derived from Greek philosophy, which was and still is influenced on Christian theology. Before Jesus was even born, Plato and Aristotle were heavily influencing all in that region of the world the concept of "soul", that it was the "purity of God", and that it was housed in an evil "prison" of the body. Death was considered to be a great release of the prison of this shell of a body, containing a soul. Read the account of the suicide of Socrates by Plato in 'Phaedo', and compare its peaceful consummation and 'release of the soul' with the agony and pain of the death of Jesus. Such concepts are not scriptural, but are Greek philosophy that we still are effected by today.
Consider the following passages of scripture as they relate to the destiny of mankind.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (NASB) 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Psalm 146:1-4 (NASB) Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul! 2 I will praise the Lord while I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. (note: A Psalm of David - also see the next passage..)
Psalm 6:5 (NASB) 4 Return, O Lord, rescue my soul; Save me because of Your lovingkindness. 5 For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
(note: King David was grieved at the very thought of dying because he knew that in death, he would no longer be able to praise the Lord. Oh that we would have that same attitude, to have a heart that loved God so much that we would miss it if we died because we would no longer be able to praise him! Don't you thing that if King David died and went to heaven, he would be praising God? He's not, cause he's not there. See the next scriptural evidence of this.)
Acts 2:29-35 (NASB) 29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’ (-Note: If King David, prophet of the most high God, a man after Gods own heart, the ancestor of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ, the one on whose throne the Son of God shall sit upon and rule over the earth at the inauguration of the Kingdom of God holding the scepter of righteousness - If he isn't in heaven - what hope do YOU have? What hope do I have?) But our hope is the same, resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ, but not before then.
Acts 13:36-37 (NASB) 36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay; 37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay
Psalm 104:29 (NASB) (Speaking of all of Gods creation, man and beasts in Psalm 104) “You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit (breath), they expire and return to their dust.”
Psalm 115:16-17 (NASB) The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, But the earth He has given to the sons of men. 17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor do any who go down into silence
John 3:13 (NASB) 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
John 11:23-26, 43-44. (Easier to read all of John 11) 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” (notice that Martha knew her eschatology! She knew that it was only in the resurrection that Lazarus would rise from the dead!) 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die (into the age, lit. - Translators left out this entire phrase). Do you believe this?” 43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus *said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
1 Tim. 6:14-16 (NASB) 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (whom is the only one that is immortal?)
---- man this is getting long. I apologize, but like I said at the beginning, not a quick answer. ----
I could go on and on quoting scriptures that say that when man dies, he dies - and the only hope that he has is the resurrection of the dead. There are so very many more. What does Job ask in Job 14? He asks the question, "If a man dies, will he live again?" Notice that he does NOT ask, 'If a man dies, will he continue to live?' or 'Where does a man go when he dies?'